I do not know what administrative regulations exist that would apply to this case to set a deadline for the government to return the 10 coins to the Langbords.
The government could voluntarily return the 10 double eagles to the Langbords, or it could delay further and refuse to do so.
In that case the trial court judge could issue follow up orders to compel the return of the coins, including the issuance of a Writ Of Possession directed at the appropriate US Marshal's office to go to where the coins are located [Fort Knox?] to take possession of the coins and deliver them to the Langbords.
. >>
believe it or not, one solution I am not in favor of at this time is the government paying of the Langbords in lieu of return. I guess if the Langboards want to settle that way I'd go for it, but not as an offer from the governement side.
wouldn't it be something to have a Marshal show up at Mint HQ or Ft. Knox for them!
Is there a time limit to file this at the Supreme Court level for a ruling on the 4 and a half years vs. CAFRA time limit?
No one alive today has personal, first hand, knowledge of how the 10 double eagles left the mint and ended up in the possession of the Langbords. There is speculation about how the 10 coins left the mint, but the facts of how they actually left is a mystery that will never be known.
I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."
If Tripp accounted for all the 1933 D.E.'s and the Court concluded,based on his expert testimony, that "no public issue of 1933 D.E.'s occurred" does it really matter how the Langbords came by the coins? The coins they found in their possession must have left the Mint unlawfully.
There's supposed to be some written record out there that forty-three 1933 D.E.'s were available,or could have been available, for distribution to the public as early as March 4,1933. Never mind that production of 1933 D.E.'s commenced March 2,1933 and the operating procedure at the Mint was for the Coiner to make deliveries of Double Eagles to the Cashier in 25,000 coin groups,100 bags of 250 coins each.The Mint record shows that the first delivery of 25,000 1933 D.E.'s to the Cashier were made on March 15, 1933.This suggests to me that there no '33 D.E. coins were available for distribution on March 2,1933.
Did the Mint Director Robert J. Grant himself go to the coining room on or about March 4,1933 and obtain the forty-three coins? Where did the forty-three coins go to? The written record should say so.I would characterize the accounting of gold at the Mint in 1933 as "gnarly." And really,what reason was there to replace "defective '32's" as has been suggested was done with the 43 coins? Most of the '31 and '32 D.E.'s that were available to the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by.
I would love to see the written record. Then I can put my amateur forensic document examiner skills to the test.
The Court needs to see this written record. It's authenticity needs to be established. If deemed to be an authentic 1933 gold accounting record of the Mint then it must be entered as evidence in my opinion.If that could be done,then speaking for myself only,I would have to acknowledge that 1933 D.E.'s could have been legally available to the public up to April 5,1933 like some people around here are saying.Short of that,no cigar,I will stay with what Tripp has to say about what happened at the Mint in 1933.It's the best information and analysis we have at this point,bar none.
Alison Frankel's book is on the way to me ($22 including shipping).It will be interesting to see how much she draws from Tripp,how much of her book seems to be "totally original," how much of it is in "direct contradiction" to what Tripp is saying in his book,Illegal Tender.
Let's forget about CAFRA mulligans and do-overs. We've already got three judges who can't seem to make heads or tails,no pun intended,of CAFRA and how its supposed to be applied as a remedy.Supreme Court has got enough to do. Let's gather all the information that is available and do a new trial.Langbords prevail in a second trial based on the admissible evidence? Good for them.
Sanction,what is the standard of proof for a trial like Langbord?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public." >>
How did he account for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 DEs? That's a lot of coins to account for if you're accounting for each and every single one.
How did he account for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 DEs? That's a lot of coins to account for if you're doing it one coin at a time.
He would have accounted for them in groups of coins as they were moved from the Coiner to the vault to the Cashier to the Pyx Box to the Assayer,etc.The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp.
June 27,1933 445,000 1933 Double Eagles, in 1,780 sealed bags weighing nearly fifteen tons were moved from the Cashier's Working Vault E to Vault F,Cage 1.And there they remained until early February,1937 when the great gold melt commenced.After the melt,everyone was satisfied that there was no gold missing based on before and after melt weight measurements.
Tripp maintains that the Cashier had control of 480 (what was left of two opened bags of 250 coins each) 1933 Double Eagles on June 27,1933.Two bags had been opened by this date and coins taken from them for the Mint's "special" internal assay.Some of the coins remaining after the "specials" were removed were sent to Washington,DC for assay by the Assay Commission.Coins that are selected for assay get destroyed in the process and a record to this effect is made.Two 1933 D.E.'s were sent to the Smithsonian for the National Numismatic Collection in October,1934.Every single 1933 D.E. gold coin is to be accounted for and they were according to Tripp.
edited to remove:"That is the question."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>How did he account for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 DEs? That's a lot of coins to account for if you're doing it one coin at a time.
He would have accounted for them in groups of coins as they were moved from the Coiner to the vault to the Cashier to the Pyx Box to the Assayer,etc.The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp.
June 27,1933 445,000 1933 Double Eagles, in 1,780 sealed bags weighing nearly fifteen tons were moved from the Cashier's Working Vault E to Vault F,Cage 1.And there they remained until early February,1937 when the great gold melt commenced.After the melt,everyone was satisfied that there was no gold missing based on before and after melt weight measurements.
Tripp maintains that the Cashier had control of 480 (what was left of two opened bags of 250 coins each) 1933 Double Eagles on June 27,1933.Two bags had been opened by this date and coins taken from them for the Mint's "special" internal assay.Some of the coins remaining after the "specials" were removed were sent to Washington,DC for assay by the Assay Commission.Coins that are selected for assay get destroyed in the process and a record is made.Two 1933 D.E.'s were sent to the Smithsonian for the National Numismatic Collection in October,1934.Every single 1933 D.E. gold coin is to be accounted for and they were according to Tripp.
1933 Double Eagles that found their way out of the mint either had to have been issued to the public on a lawful exchange basis or were exchanged for unlawfully by swap with a common coin like a '28 and then spirited out of the Mint.
Did the 1933 D.E.'s found in private hands leave the Mint lawfully or not? That is the question. >>
For the last time, no, that is not the question in this case. The question here is did the Mint screw the pooch when it had the chance to seize the coins LAWFULLY, and the answer is that they did. So, tough kazankians to the Mint. They lost.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The government did not file a timely CAFRA forfeiture action. Multiple federal agencies were in favor of doing so. The Mint was the only agency that was not in favor of doing so. >>
Perhaps someone at the Mint wanted these in collector hands? It seems we may have the Mint to thank for this.
Let's assume that when they moved the 1780 bags around there WAS in fact 1780 bags. Let's assume that as each bag is filled they weigh the bag. Lets assume those officers at the Mint are all honest people who record accurately. From a practical point of view, it is hard for me to imagine that each and every bag contained EXACTLY 250 coins using the scales in existence in 1933. It sounds so easy to multiply 1780 times 250 and thereby account for EXACTLY 445,000 of the reported 445,500 coins minted and then show what happened to the other 500 BUT in the real world of 1933 with a depression on and people starving in the streets, it is just hard for me to buy in to Tripp's nicely accounted for story.
Of course, all of the above is NOT RELEVENT to the current facts in this case in which the Government did NOT follow the law by filing CAFRA in a timely way. Steve
<< <i> The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp. >>
It would have been more transparent to publish the actual documents rather than merely characterizing them. The central theme of the book is that the coins were stolen. That requires a high level of primary evidence. His book contains only one such document, which is a record indicating the coins were actually struck. What a bombshell that is. I want to see these "well-detailed" and "meticulous" documents which trace the path of the coins from the press to the cashier.
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by. >>
There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation. Based on that, isn't it possible, even likely, that some 1933 double eagles were issued during the "window" period by exchanging an earlier dated double eagle for a 1933?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933. >>
My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
Does everyone keep every receipt every time he/she buys something?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by. >>
There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation. Based on that, isn't it possible, even likely, that some 1933 double eagles were issued during the "window" period by exchanging an earlier dated double eagle for a 1933? >>
I think this is a excellent point about the '33 eagles. I also wonder how anyone could claim the records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" when the records show that all 1933 but one, were destroyed yet clearly that is not the case. It seems the very existence of the Langbord 10 is proof the mint records cannot be trusted.
It would have been more transparent to publish the actual documents rather than merely characterizing them. The central theme of the book is that the coins were stolen. That requires a high level of primary evidence. His book contains only one such document, which is a record indicating the coins were actually struck. What a bombshell that is. I want to see these "well-detailed" and "meticulous" documents which trace the path of the coins from the press to the cashier.
Tripp,as expert Government witness,was able to convince the Court, in the trial presided over by the Honorable Legrome D. Davis, that no,none,nada1933 Double Eagle left the mint lawfully.
There's nothing preventing you from going into the Mint archives and seeing the "well-detailed" and "meticulous" records for yourself if you don't believe what Tripp is saying.
Do you think they threw gold coins into gunny sacks and then sealed them with a twist after they came off the press?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933. >>
My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
Does everyone keep every receipt every time he/she buys something? >>
Does anyone know what the background, education, work history, professional affiliations, CV and/or credentials are of the expert witnesses of both sides in the case [both sides had multiple experts working for them in the case, including those who testified at the trial in the case]?
My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
New information comes out establishing stronger possibility that '33 D.E.'s left the mint lawfully,i'm open-minded enough to change my mind.For the time being,I'll stick with Tripp.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
New information comes out establishing stronger possibility that '33 D.E.'s left the mint lawfully,i'm open-minded enough to change my mind.For the time being,I'll stick with Tripp. >>
since when is an author the final word on anything? The Mint's records are shown to be incomplete and further research shows his conclusions to be in error.
Where is this unfound faith in one man's opinions coming from?
I think this is a excellent point about the '33 eagles. I also wonder how anyone could claim the records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" when the records show that all 1933 but one, were destroyed yet clearly that is not the case. It seems the very existence of the Langbord 10 is proof the mint records cannot be trusted.
The Fort Knox 10 stand as mute testimony to the corruption and lawlessness that was allowed to flourish in the Mint in 1933.
Hereafter,I will be referring to the 10 1933 Double Eagles that the Langbords discovered in their safety deposit box as the Fort Knox 10. Seems like a more appropriate designation to me since the Government has the coins at this time.
I grow wistful as I ponder that those 10 ladies of Liberty socked away in Ft. Knox might still be mourning the death of their compatriots by melting oh so long ago.Don't fret pretty ladies.Nobody wants to melt you.Are you looking forward to meeting up with your two lucky sisters who live in D.C. at the Smithsonian?
BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I think this is a excellent point about the '33 eagles. I also wonder how anyone could claim the records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" when the records show that all 1933 but one, were destroyed yet clearly that is not the case. It seems the very existence of the Langbord 10 is proof the mint records cannot be trusted.
The Fort Knox 10 stand as mute testimony to the corruption and lawlessness that was allowed to flourish in the Mint in 1933.
Hereafter,I will be referring to the 10 1933 Double Eagles that the Langbords discovered in their safety deposit box as the Fort Knox 10. Seems like a more appropriate designation to me since the Government has the coins at this time.
I grow wistful as I ponder that those 10 ladies of Liberty socked away in Ft. Knox might still be mourning the death of their compatriots by melting oh so long ago.Don't fret pretty ladies.Nobody wants to melt you.Are you looking forward to meeting up with your two lucky sisters who live in D.C. at the Smithsonian?
BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
OK, two were sent to the Smithsonian. My question still remains how can you trust the mint records, when we can prove them to be inaccurate? How can you trust someone that says the mint records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous," when that is so obviously false.
Also, I'm not sure why you are putting so much faith in Tripp if someone writes a book, do you automatically assume it is accurate, even if there is no supporting evidence?
Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto were also written with power and conviction, that does not make it true.
When I say writing with power and conviction,I'm speaking to that quality of writing that will resonate with the reader.The truth of what Tripp is saying will resonate with you,if you will only let it.
Tripp's book is not fiction.I recommend that you obtain a copy and read it.One of the best 20 bucks you will ever spend for a book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25.
Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
<< <i> it is hard for me to imagine that each and every bag contained EXACTLY 250 coins using the scales in existence in 1933.
Of course each sealed bag contained 250 coins.To think otherwise is ludicrous. >>
Definition of LUDICROUS: absurd but amusing; causing derisive laughter; ridiculous; laughable
Mr1874, all I was saying is that I'd be willing to bet that at least ONE of those 1,870 bags contained either more or less than EXACTLY 250 coins. Proving accuracy in the real world is no laughing matter. And those hard working mint employees I'm sure tried to be as accurate as humanly possible. Fact is no human being is PERFECT. Steve
Let's all take a deep breath and relax, people. This is only a legal matter regarding ten coins, and not life and death.
Chill.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto were also written with power and conviction, that does not make it true.
When I say writing with power and conviction,I'm speaking to that quality of writing that will resonate with the reader.The truth of what Tripp is saying will resonate with you,if you will only let it.
Tripp's book is not fiction.I recommend that you obtain a copy and read it.One of the best 20 bucks you will ever spend for a book. >>
Translation: the author agrees with my preformed opinions thus he's great. ;-)
<< <i> it is hard for me to imagine that each and every bag contained EXACTLY 250 coins using the scales in existence in 1933.
Of course each sealed bag contained 250 coins.To think otherwise is ludicrous. >>
Definition of LUDICROUS: absurd but amusing; causing derisive laughter; ridiculous; laughable
Mr1874, all I was saying is that I'd be willing to bet that at least ONE of those 1,870 bags contained either more or less than EXACTLY 250 coins. Proving accuracy in the real world is no laughing matter. And those hard working mint employees I'm sure tried to be as accurate as humanly possible. Fact is no human being is PERFECT. Steve >>
after reading some other threads about period scales, I would say the scales would definitely not be at fault if a bag did not contain exactly 250 coins.
I have not read Tripp's book, but how does he explain the fact that zero gold is unaccounted for. The Mint may be slack in terms of dates, they count every gram of gold like a dragon watching over his horrid. At West Point, to go behind the line where the gold is, you have to be weighed... there are NO bathrooms on the other side. The point is, some things were very lax, but others were managed to the nth degree, and one of those is the quantity of gold on hand at ANY time, EVERY day. How do 20 to 25 Double Eagles get "stolen" with NO loss of gold?
If you call exchanging a common date for a 1933 as theft, that is stretching the truth. It may be unauthorized exchange, but the Mint lost NO MONEY in the trade and the effect upon the balance sheet was ZERO, which is EXACTLY the reported amount of stolen or lost gold in that time.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
That is why that silly little show of handing over $20 to monetize the Farouk coin was inane. There was no gold missing - the $20 had already been recorded.
This is the first of a few posts I intend to make here today.
First,an apology is in order.I'm sorry,Steve,for characterizing your thinking about "maybe not 250 coins to the bag in every bag" and questioning the accuracy of scales in use at the Mint in 1933 as ludicrous.That was inappropriate of me to make that remark to you. Sometimes,i react in the heat of the moment about a subject i am passionate about without giving thought about my response enough time to sink fully into my noggin. I should have used the "Cancel" button instead of the "Reply to Thread" button.All ideas should be given their due without being so summarily dismissed as I did yours.My bad,i'm sorry.
The book I ordered,Double Eagle:The Epic Story of the World's Most Valuable Coin by Alison Frankel has arrived.It's a nice looking book,very similar to Tripp's book in many respects from an appearance standpoint.It has a nice dust cover with a partial image of the back of a St. Gaudens Double Eagle on top of the jacket."Stolen from the U.S. Mint,shipped to Egypt,hidden for forty years,seized in a Secret Service sting,and finally sold in a record-setting auction...," it says on the cover.
It says on the inside of the jacket over the back cover,"A senior writer at The American Lawyer,Alison Frankel is one of the most respected legal journalists in the business. Her work has appeared in Newsday and several national magazines. A graduate of Dartmouth College, she lives in Sea Cliff, New York,with her husband and two daughters."
I intend to read this book over the next days.Then,I intend to publish my review of Frankel's book here.The thread will be entitled,"Double Eagle by Alison Frankel,a review." I might start the thread later today,towards evening.
mr1874:<< BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
Coinosaurus: The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25. Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
This is an interesting record.Thanks for publishing it here.Transfer of items already in the Smithsonian from one location to another within the Smithsonian? I notice at the top of the same page they also transferred two 1932 Double Eagles.There are other coins from the '30's on the transfer list. "39157 U.S.A. 1 cent 1933 Denver,AE........2,and "39220 Half Dollar 1933, San Francisco,AR.....2 ,for example.
This is a Smithsonian record,not a Mint record,though.Tripp was referring to Mint records when characterizing records he saw as "well-detailed" and "meticulous." This Smithsonian record is not exactly meticulous,in my opinion,but it is detailed enough,you think? Now,I will say I would be alarmed if I saw "1" where there should be "2" for item "39166 20 dollars 1933 Phila.gold," As a side note,if I had made this record I would have used the designation "AU" for gold pieces instead of "gold," for the sake of consistency.
Most likely,it's a Smithsonian record from 1954.There wouldn't be 1935 coins on it if it was a Mint record from 1934.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
That is why that silly little show of handing over $20 to monetize the Farouk coin was inane. There was no gold missing - the $20 had already been recorded.
To be sure,a show but maybe not so silly.I'm thinking the thought of the Government at the time was to come up with an essentially meaningless term in the context of the auction to justify the sale of the ex Farouk coin at auction,a sale where the Government shared in the proceeds.Mint uses "monetize" in it's accounting department to keep track of production expense to make the coin.DeepCoin explained this.So let's just "monetize" (meaninglessize what's going on here?) the coin by having the buyer pay $20 extra,the Gov likely reasoned.
"Monetize" is definitely not to be construed as the same thing as "issue." There was no "issue" of the ex Farouk $20 Double to the buyer.Gov got snookered.That's it. To it's credit,however,vowed "never again." No deals,no auction,ever again.The Fort Knox Ten will never be melted or auctioned to the public if the Gov gets to keep them.
Stephen Fenton went from being slammed face down by the Secret Service to the floor of the Waldorf Astoria, to garnering millions for a known to be stolen coin that our Government had been seeking to get back in its possession for decades.
That's quite an accomplishment if you think about.Fenton definitely had our Gov by the you-know-what on this one.Issuing that darned Treasury Gold License Number 11-better known as Form TGL-11 to Mr. Fahim from the Egyptian Royal Legation on February 25,1944 was a mistake of the Mint and should have never happened.Fenton was,in effect,able to take the handcuffs off himself and put them on the United States Government because of that license existing.
Chapter 6 in Tripp's book,A Double Eagle Flies to Cairo,spins the tale.I have more remarks to make about this but am saving them for a later time,after I have read Frankel's book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25.
Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
[/URL] >>
Interesting document. However, if you look at the "Accession Nos" and their dates it is obvious that the "1954" is just a typo for "1934."
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The government's issuance of an export license to allow a 1933 double eagle to be sent to Egypt was not a mistake. It was an intentional act/decision by the government. The decision to issue the export license was probably made with consideration of the politics of the time (WWII and Egypt being an ally that had recently had German occupiers forced out).
Though some may criticize the issuance of the export license, how many critics would give the government a mulligan or do over due to what in hind sight could be called a misguided wartime strategy?
DeepCoin, I have not read Tripp's book, but how does he explain the fact that zero gold is unaccounted for. The Mint may be slack in terms of dates, they count every gram of gold like a dragon watching over his horrid. At West Point, to go behind the line where the gold is, you have to be weighed... there are NO bathrooms on the other side. The point is, some things were very lax, but others were managed to the nth degree, and one of those is the quantity of gold on hand at ANY time, EVERY day. How do 20 to 25 Double Eagles get "stolen" with NO loss of gold?
Tripp explains it by the movements of the coins within the Mint,as detailed by the records.Tripp says essentially what you,a former Mint worker,are saying about the accountability that was/still is necessary for gold coin.
Tripp is in the "the 1933 Doubles were swapped for by a different date,a more common date like 1928" camp.Our government has consistently maintained,since the '30's,that "no 1933 Double was issued to the Public nor should have been issued to the Public."
No gold missing?That's right.That doesn't mean,however,that 1933 Doubles weren't swapped for by Mint employee(s) who figured they could get away with it,the goal being personal gain.That is an act of theft in my eyes and many others.Sneaking out the door of your employer's business with items that belong to the boss doesn't fly most places of business,as far as I know.
Cashier George A. McCann is the "swapper." 1933 Double Eagles walked out of the Mint in his pockets.I seriously doubt that McCann asked permission of the boss to walk out the door with different gold coin than he came in with.
McCann,do you hear me? You should have tried getting permission.Having gotten permission,make the exchange of your '28 for a shiny,new '33 across the counter with another authorized employee.Make sure the transfer is duly recorded in the daily ledger.It's a no brainer,dum dum,to use the words of the "Old Man."
There is a rather poignant picture to be seen on p.41 of Tripp's book that I would like to share with you all.Here it is.Hope it takes.I struggle with posting images from the new Photobucket sometimes.
March 10,1933. Unhappy but law-abiding citizens heeding Roosevelt's orders and returning their gold coins to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (General Research Division,The New York Public Library,Astor,Lenox & Tilden Foundations)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Post after "last" post.I really need to attend to those yellow flowers that have sprung up in my lawn....
SanctionII: The government's issuance of an export license to allow a 1933 double eagle to be sent to Egypt was not a mistake. It was an intentional act/decision by the government. The decision to issue the export license was probably made with consideration of the politics of the time (WWII and Egypt being an ally that had recently had German occupiers forced out).
My understanding is that Roosevelt and Farouk were both Philatelists.Farouk give Roosevelt some stamps,sheets of stamps.The President really enjoyed his stamp collection.
Nellie Tayloe Ross,Director of the Mint in 1944 has an application in front of her to export a specific gold coin,1933 Double Eagle, to Egypt for King Farouk:
Nellie Tayloe Ross:"I can't sign this thing."
Mr. Fahim: "Ms. Ross,can you please check with the President?"
Nellie Tayloe Ross:"Okay,but it will be awhile."
Mr. Fahim: "That's fine."
.....two hours later....
Nellie Tayloe Ross: "Here's your export license,Mr. Fahim.Have a safe trip back to Egypt."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>The government's issuance of an export license to allow a 1933 double eagle to be sent to Egypt was not a mistake. It was an intentional act/decision by the government. The decision to issue the export license was probably made with consideration of the politics of the time (WWII and Egypt being an ally that had recently had German occupiers forced out).
Though some may criticize the issuance of the export license, how many critics would give the government a mulligan or do over due to what in hind sight could be called a misguided wartime strategy? >>
The Germans never occupied Egypt. The British held them out at El Alemein (sp?) though it was a close run thing.
The Egyptians controlled the Suez Canal and that was important.
And, I think that the export license was issued before the flap over the piece in the Stacks auction.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Okay, so let's say they were "exchanged" in an unorthodox way, but not unlawful way. Otherwise , we have to say our government and her servants are corrupt.
The bottom line is that the Mint has no proof that they were "stolen." It just sounds better to a jury than "exchanged for gold of equal weight without authorization."
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Whatever crime was committed in 1936, if any, is no longer prosecutable.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>
I do not know what administrative regulations exist that would apply to this case to set a deadline for the government to return the 10 coins to the Langbords.
The government could voluntarily return the 10 double eagles to the Langbords, or it could delay further and refuse to do so.
In that case the trial court judge could issue follow up orders to compel the return of the coins, including the issuance of a Writ Of Possession directed at the appropriate US Marshal's office to go to where the coins are located [Fort Knox?] to take possession of the coins and deliver them to the Langbords.
. >>
believe it or not, one solution I am not in favor of at this time is the government paying of the Langbords in lieu of return. I guess if the Langboards want to settle that way I'd go for it, but not as an offer from the governement side.
wouldn't it be something to have a Marshal show up at Mint HQ or Ft. Knox for them!
Is there a time limit to file this at the Supreme Court level for a ruling on the 4 and a half years vs. CAFRA time limit?
I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."
If Tripp accounted for all the 1933 D.E.'s and the Court concluded,based on his expert testimony, that "no public issue of 1933 D.E.'s occurred" does it really matter how the Langbords came by the coins? The coins they found in their possession must have left the Mint unlawfully.
There's supposed to be some written record out there that forty-three 1933 D.E.'s were available,or could have been available, for distribution to the public as early as March 4,1933. Never mind that production of 1933 D.E.'s commenced March 2,1933 and the operating procedure at the Mint was for the Coiner to make deliveries of Double Eagles to the Cashier in 25,000 coin groups,100 bags of 250 coins each.The Mint record shows that the first delivery of 25,000 1933 D.E.'s to the Cashier were made on March 15, 1933.This suggests to me that there no '33 D.E. coins were available for distribution on March 2,1933.
Did the Mint Director Robert J. Grant himself go to the coining room on or about March 4,1933 and obtain the forty-three coins? Where did the forty-three coins go to? The written record should say so.I would characterize the accounting of gold at the Mint in 1933 as "gnarly."
And really,what reason was there to replace "defective '32's" as has been suggested was done with the 43 coins? Most of the '31 and '32 D.E.'s that were available to the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by.
I would love to see the written record. Then I can put my amateur forensic document examiner skills to the test.
The Court needs to see this written record. It's authenticity needs to be established. If deemed to be an authentic 1933 gold accounting record of the Mint then it must be entered as evidence in my opinion.If that could be done,then speaking for myself only,I would have to acknowledge that 1933 D.E.'s could have been legally available to the public up to April 5,1933 like some people around here are saying.Short of that,no cigar,I will stay with what Tripp has to say about what happened at the Mint in 1933.It's the best information and analysis we have at this point,bar none.
Alison Frankel's book is on the way to me ($22 including shipping).It will be interesting to see how much she draws from Tripp,how much of her book seems to be "totally original," how much of it is in "direct contradiction" to what Tripp is saying in his book,Illegal Tender.
Let's forget about CAFRA mulligans and do-overs. We've already got three judges who can't seem to make heads or tails,no pun intended,of CAFRA and how its supposed to be applied as a remedy.Supreme Court has got enough to do. Let's gather all the information that is available and do a new trial.Langbords prevail in a second trial based on the admissible evidence? Good for them.
Sanction,what is the standard of proof for a trial like Langbord?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public." >>
How did he account for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 DEs? That's a lot of coins to account for if you're accounting for each and every single one.
He would have accounted for them in groups of coins as they were moved from the Coiner to the vault to the Cashier to the Pyx Box to the Assayer,etc.The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp.
June 27,1933 445,000 1933 Double Eagles, in 1,780 sealed bags weighing nearly fifteen tons were moved from the Cashier's Working Vault E to Vault F,Cage 1.And there they remained until early February,1937 when the great gold melt commenced.After the melt,everyone was satisfied that there was no gold missing based on before and after melt weight measurements.
Tripp maintains that the Cashier had control of 480 (what was left of two opened bags of 250 coins each) 1933 Double Eagles on June 27,1933.Two bags had been opened by this date and coins taken from them for the Mint's "special" internal assay.Some of the coins remaining after the "specials" were removed were sent to Washington,DC for assay by the Assay Commission.Coins that are selected for assay get destroyed in the process and a record to this effect is made.Two 1933 D.E.'s were sent to the Smithsonian for the National Numismatic Collection in October,1934.Every single 1933 D.E. gold coin is to be accounted for and they were according to Tripp.
edited to remove:"That is the question."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>How did he account for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 DEs? That's a lot of coins to account for if you're doing it one coin at a time.
He would have accounted for them in groups of coins as they were moved from the Coiner to the vault to the Cashier to the Pyx Box to the Assayer,etc.The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp.
June 27,1933 445,000 1933 Double Eagles, in 1,780 sealed bags weighing nearly fifteen tons were moved from the Cashier's Working Vault E to Vault F,Cage 1.And there they remained until early February,1937 when the great gold melt commenced.After the melt,everyone was satisfied that there was no gold missing based on before and after melt weight measurements.
Tripp maintains that the Cashier had control of 480 (what was left of two opened bags of 250 coins each) 1933 Double Eagles on June 27,1933.Two bags had been opened by this date and coins taken from them for the Mint's "special" internal assay.Some of the coins remaining after the "specials" were removed were sent to Washington,DC for assay by the Assay Commission.Coins that are selected for assay get destroyed in the process and a record is made.Two 1933 D.E.'s were sent to the Smithsonian for the National Numismatic Collection in October,1934.Every single 1933 D.E. gold coin is to be accounted for and they were according to Tripp.
1933 Double Eagles that found their way out of the mint either had to have been issued to the public on a lawful exchange basis or were exchanged for unlawfully by swap with a common coin like a '28 and then spirited out of the Mint.
Did the 1933 D.E.'s found in private hands leave the Mint lawfully or not? That is the question. >>
For the last time, no, that is not the question in this case. The question here is did the Mint screw the pooch when it had the chance to seize the coins LAWFULLY, and the answer is that they did. So, tough kazankians to the Mint. They lost.
I'm still wondering if Tripp ever accounted for exchange in his investigations.
And there might be a chance the mint tries on the 4.5 years still being a reasonable delay.
<< <i>The government did not file a timely CAFRA forfeiture action. Multiple federal agencies were in favor of doing so. The Mint was the only agency that was not in favor of doing so. >>
Perhaps someone at the Mint wanted these in collector hands? It seems we may have the Mint to thank for this.
Interesting view.The plot thickens....
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Of course, all of the above is NOT RELEVENT to the current facts in this case in which the Government did NOT follow the law by filing CAFRA
in a timely way.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>
The Mint's internal records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" according to Tripp.
>>
It would have been more transparent to publish the actual documents rather than merely characterizing them. The central theme of the book is that the coins were stolen. That requires a high level of primary evidence. His book contains only one such document, which is a record indicating the coins were actually struck. What a bombshell that is. I want to see these "well-detailed" and "meticulous" documents which trace the path of the coins from the press to the cashier.
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by. >>
There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation. Based on that, isn't it possible, even likely, that some 1933 double eagles were issued during the "window" period by exchanging an earlier dated double eagle for a 1933?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933. >>
My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
Does everyone keep every receipt every time he/she buys something?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i>I consider David Tripp's work,Illegal Tender,the bible,if you will,about the story of the 1933 Double Eagle.Judge Sloviter referenced Tripp's testimony in her dissent stating that "The Court noted that "Tripp accounted for each and every one of the 445,500 1933 Double Eagles, and showed that "not a single '33 Double Eagle was issued to the public."the Cashier at the window for legal exchange were not exchanged for as evidenced by the quantities remaining after the years 1931 and 1932 passed by. >>
There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation. Based on that, isn't it possible, even likely, that some 1933 double eagles were issued during the "window" period by exchanging an earlier dated double eagle for a 1933? >>
I think this is a excellent point about the '33 eagles. I also wonder how anyone could claim the records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" when the records show that all 1933 but one, were destroyed yet clearly that is not the case. It seems the very existence of the Langbord 10 is proof the mint records cannot be trusted.
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Of course each sealed bag contained 250 coins.To think otherwise is ludicrous.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Tripp,as expert Government witness,was able to convince the Court, in the trial presided over by the Honorable Legrome D. Davis, that no,none,nada1933 Double Eagle left the mint lawfully.
There's nothing preventing you from going into the Mint archives and seeing the "well-detailed" and "meticulous" records for yourself if you don't believe what Tripp is saying.
Do you think they threw gold coins into gunny sacks and then sealed them with a twist after they came off the press?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>
<< <i>There is documentation that 4 1933 eagles were released to the public. However, there are many more than 4 1933 eagles in existence. I would argue that in the absence of documentation, that the remaining 1933 eagles were issued legally but without documentation.
The 1933 Eagle coin ($10) was lawful to obtain from the Mint prior to April 5,1933. They are all legal to own.The $10 Eagles were manufactured early in 1933,before the Double Eagle production started on Mar 2,1933. >>
My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
Does everyone keep every receipt every time he/she buys something? >>
Game....set....match.
New information comes out establishing stronger possibility that '33 D.E.'s left the mint lawfully,i'm open-minded enough to change my mind.For the time being,I'll stick with Tripp.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>My point was that there is no documentation for most of the 1933 eagles, and they are legal, and therefore it is possible that the 1933 double eagles were issued legally, but without documentation.
New information comes out establishing stronger possibility that '33 D.E.'s left the mint lawfully,i'm open-minded enough to change my mind.For the time being,I'll stick with Tripp. >>
since when is an author the final word on anything? The Mint's records are shown to be incomplete and further research shows his conclusions to be in error.
Where is this unfound faith in one man's opinions coming from?
An author wrote the majority opinion for the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit re: Langbord v. United States?
I've found that people will believe what they want to believe despite the evidence,the sometimes overwhelming evidence,that belies their belief.
game...set....match
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The Fort Knox 10 stand as mute testimony to the corruption and lawlessness that was allowed to flourish in the Mint in 1933.
Hereafter,I will be referring to the 10 1933 Double Eagles that the Langbords discovered in their safety deposit box as the Fort Knox 10.
Seems like a more appropriate designation to me since the Government has the coins at this time.
I grow wistful as I ponder that those 10 ladies of Liberty socked away in Ft. Knox might still be mourning the death of their compatriots by melting oh so long ago.Don't fret pretty ladies.Nobody wants to melt you.Are you looking forward to meeting up with your two lucky sisters who live in D.C. at the Smithsonian?
BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Tripp writes with power and conviction in his book,Illegal Tender.I haven't really seen anything comparable,not even close, from the other camp.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>I think this is a excellent point about the '33 eagles. I also wonder how anyone could claim the records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous" when the records show that all 1933 but one, were destroyed yet clearly that is not the case. It seems the very existence of the Langbord 10 is proof the mint records cannot be trusted.
The Fort Knox 10 stand as mute testimony to the corruption and lawlessness that was allowed to flourish in the Mint in 1933.
Hereafter,I will be referring to the 10 1933 Double Eagles that the Langbords discovered in their safety deposit box as the Fort Knox 10.
Seems like a more appropriate designation to me since the Government has the coins at this time.
I grow wistful as I ponder that those 10 ladies of Liberty socked away in Ft. Knox might still be mourning the death of their compatriots by melting oh so long ago.Don't fret pretty ladies.Nobody wants to melt you.Are you looking forward to meeting up with your two lucky sisters who live in D.C. at the Smithsonian?
BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
OK, two were sent to the Smithsonian. My question still remains how can you trust the mint records, when we can prove them to be inaccurate? How can you trust someone that says the mint records were "well-detailed" and "meticulous," when that is so obviously false.
Also, I'm not sure why you are putting so much faith in Tripp if someone writes a book, do you automatically assume it is accurate, even if there is no supporting evidence?
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<< <i>Where is this unfound faith in one man's opinions coming from?
Tripp writes with power and conviction in his book,Illegal Tender.I haven't really seen anything comparable,not even close, from the other camp. >>
Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto were also written with power and conviction, that does not make it true.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
When I say writing with power and conviction,I'm speaking to that quality of writing that will resonate with the reader.The truth of what Tripp is saying will resonate with you,if you will only let it.
Tripp's book is not fiction.I recommend that you obtain a copy and read it.One of the best 20 bucks you will ever spend for a book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>The truth of what Tripp is saying will resonate with you, if you will only let it. >>
Sounds like Tripp has attained cult status. I am not really a cult joining kind of a guy or a Kool-Aid drinker for that matter.
CG
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25.
Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
<< <i> it is hard for me to imagine that each and every bag contained EXACTLY 250 coins using the scales in existence in 1933.
Of course each sealed bag contained 250 coins.To think otherwise is ludicrous. >>
Definition of LUDICROUS: absurd but amusing; causing derisive laughter; ridiculous; laughable
Mr1874, all I was saying is that I'd be willing to bet that at least ONE of those 1,870 bags contained either more or less than EXACTLY 250 coins. Proving accuracy in the real world is no laughing matter. And those hard working mint employees I'm sure tried to be as accurate as humanly possible. Fact is no human being is PERFECT.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Chill.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto were also written with power and conviction, that does not make it true.
When I say writing with power and conviction,I'm speaking to that quality of writing that will resonate with the reader.The truth of what Tripp is saying will resonate with you,if you will only let it.
Tripp's book is not fiction.I recommend that you obtain a copy and read it.One of the best 20 bucks you will ever spend for a book. >>
Translation: the author agrees with my preformed opinions thus he's great. ;-)
<< <i>
<< <i> it is hard for me to imagine that each and every bag contained EXACTLY 250 coins using the scales in existence in 1933.
Of course each sealed bag contained 250 coins.To think otherwise is ludicrous. >>
Definition of LUDICROUS: absurd but amusing; causing derisive laughter; ridiculous; laughable
Mr1874, all I was saying is that I'd be willing to bet that at least ONE of those 1,870 bags contained either more or less than EXACTLY 250 coins. Proving accuracy in the real world is no laughing matter. And those hard working mint employees I'm sure tried to be as accurate as humanly possible. Fact is no human being is PERFECT.
Steve
after reading some other threads about period scales, I would say the scales would definitely not be at fault if a bag did not contain exactly 250 coins.
If you call exchanging a common date for a 1933 as theft, that is stretching the truth. It may be unauthorized exchange, but the Mint lost NO MONEY in the trade and the effect upon the balance sheet was ZERO, which is EXACTLY the reported amount of stolen or lost gold in that time.
First,an apology is in order.I'm sorry,Steve,for characterizing your thinking about "maybe not 250 coins to the bag in every bag" and questioning the accuracy of scales in use at the Mint in 1933 as ludicrous.That was inappropriate of me to make that remark to you. Sometimes,i react in the heat of the moment about a subject i am passionate about without giving thought about my response enough time to sink fully into my noggin. I should have used the "Cancel" button instead of the "Reply to Thread" button.All ideas should be given their due without being so summarily dismissed as I did yours.My bad,i'm sorry.
The book I ordered,Double Eagle:The Epic Story of the World's Most Valuable Coin by Alison Frankel has arrived.It's a nice looking book,very similar to Tripp's book in many respects from an appearance standpoint.It has a nice dust cover with a partial image of the back of a St. Gaudens Double Eagle on top of the jacket."Stolen from the U.S. Mint,shipped to Egypt,hidden for forty years,seized in a Secret Service sting,and finally sold in a record-setting auction...," it says on the cover.
It says on the inside of the jacket over the back cover,"A senior writer at The American Lawyer,Alison Frankel is one of the most respected legal journalists in the business. Her work has appeared in Newsday and several national magazines. A graduate of Dartmouth College, she lives in Sea Cliff, New York,with her husband and two daughters."
I intend to read this book over the next days.Then,I intend to publish my review of Frankel's book here.The thread will be entitled,"Double Eagle by Alison Frankel,a review." I might start the thread later today,towards evening.
mr1874:<< BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
Coinosaurus:
The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25.
Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
This is an interesting record.Thanks for publishing it here.Transfer of items already in the Smithsonian from one location to another within the Smithsonian? I notice at the top of the same page they also transferred two 1932 Double Eagles.There are other coins from the '30's on the transfer list. "39157 U.S.A. 1 cent 1933 Denver,AE........2,and "39220 Half Dollar 1933, San Francisco,AR.....2 ,for example.
This is a Smithsonian record,not a Mint record,though.Tripp was referring to Mint records when characterizing records he saw as "well-detailed" and "meticulous." This Smithsonian record is not exactly meticulous,in my opinion,but it is detailed enough,you think? Now,I will say I would be alarmed if I saw "1" where there should be "2" for item "39166 20 dollars 1933 Phila.gold," As a side note,if I had made this record I would have used the designation "AU" for gold pieces instead of "gold," for the sake of consistency.
Most likely,it's a Smithsonian record from 1954.There wouldn't be 1935 coins on it if it was a Mint record from 1934.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
To be sure,a show but maybe not so silly.I'm thinking the thought of the Government at the time was to come up with an essentially meaningless term in the context of the auction to justify the sale of the ex Farouk coin at auction,a sale where the Government shared in the proceeds.Mint uses "monetize" in it's accounting department to keep track of production expense to make the coin.DeepCoin explained this.So let's just "monetize" (meaninglessize what's going on here?) the coin by having the buyer pay $20 extra,the Gov likely reasoned.
"Monetize" is definitely not to be construed as the same thing as "issue." There was no "issue" of the ex Farouk $20 Double to the buyer.Gov got snookered.That's it. To it's credit,however,vowed "never again." No deals,no auction,ever again.The Fort Knox Ten will never be melted or auctioned to the public if the Gov gets to keep them.
Stephen Fenton went from being slammed face down by the Secret Service to the floor of the Waldorf Astoria, to garnering millions for a known to be stolen coin that our Government had been seeking to get back in its possession for decades.
That's quite an accomplishment if you think about.Fenton definitely had our Gov by the you-know-what on this one.Issuing that darned Treasury Gold License Number 11-better known as Form TGL-11 to Mr. Fahim from the Egyptian Royal Legation on February 25,1944 was a mistake of the Mint and should have never happened.Fenton was,in effect,able to take the handcuffs off himself and put them on the United States Government because of that license existing.
Chapter 6 in Tripp's book,A Double Eagle Flies to Cairo,spins the tale.I have more remarks to make about this but am saving them for a later time,after I have read Frankel's book.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Check it out in the law books, not the novel section.
<< <i>
<< <i>BTW,the record shows that two,not one,1933 Double Eagles were allowed to exist.Two pieces were lawfully procured from Mint holdings and sent to Washington,D.C. to reside in the Smithsonian National Numismatic Collection.This happened October,1934. >>
The record does not show this. This document from the national archives indicates a transfer date of 1954. Record group 359, box 25.
Now, you can rationally interpret that date as 1934, not 1954. But be careful when you refer to "meticulous" records. They are not.
Interesting document. However, if you look at the "Accession Nos" and their dates it is obvious that the "1954" is just a typo for "1934."
TD
Though some may criticize the issuance of the export license, how many critics would give the government a mulligan or do over due to what in hind sight could be called a misguided wartime strategy?
DeepCoin,
I have not read Tripp's book, but how does he explain the fact that zero gold is unaccounted for. The Mint may be slack in terms of dates, they count every gram of gold like a dragon watching over his horrid. At West Point, to go behind the line where the gold is, you have to be weighed... there are NO bathrooms on the other side. The point is, some things were very lax, but others were managed to the nth degree, and one of those is the quantity of gold on hand at ANY time, EVERY day. How do 20 to 25 Double Eagles get "stolen" with NO loss of gold?
Tripp explains it by the movements of the coins within the Mint,as detailed by the records.Tripp says essentially what you,a former Mint worker,are saying about the accountability that was/still is necessary for gold coin.
Tripp is in the "the 1933 Doubles were swapped for by a different date,a more common date like 1928" camp.Our government has consistently maintained,since the '30's,that "no 1933 Double was issued to the Public nor should have been issued to the Public."
No gold missing?That's right.That doesn't mean,however,that 1933 Doubles weren't swapped for by Mint employee(s) who figured they could get away with it,the goal being personal gain.That is an act of theft in my eyes and many others.Sneaking out the door of your employer's business with items that belong to the boss doesn't fly most places of business,as far as I know.
Cashier George A. McCann is the "swapper." 1933 Double Eagles walked out of the Mint in his pockets.I seriously doubt that McCann asked permission of the boss to walk out the door with different gold coin than he came in with.
McCann,do you hear me? You should have tried getting permission.Having gotten permission,make the exchange of your '28 for a shiny,new '33 across the counter with another authorized employee.Make sure the transfer is duly recorded in the daily ledger.It's a no brainer,dum dum,to use the words of the "Old Man."
There is a rather poignant picture to be seen on p.41 of Tripp's book that I would like to share with you all.Here it is.Hope it takes.I struggle with posting images from the new Photobucket sometimes.
March 10,1933. Unhappy but law-abiding citizens heeding Roosevelt's orders and returning their gold coins to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (General Research Division,The New York Public Library,Astor,Lenox & Tilden Foundations)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
SanctionII:
The government's issuance of an export license to allow a 1933 double eagle to be sent to Egypt was not a mistake. It was an intentional act/decision by the government. The decision to issue the export license was probably made with consideration of the politics of the time (WWII and Egypt being an ally that had recently had German occupiers forced out).
My understanding is that Roosevelt and Farouk were both Philatelists.Farouk give Roosevelt some stamps,sheets of stamps.The President really enjoyed his stamp collection.
Nellie Tayloe Ross,Director of the Mint in 1944 has an application in front of her to export a specific gold coin,1933 Double Eagle, to Egypt for King Farouk:
Nellie Tayloe Ross:"I can't sign this thing."
Mr. Fahim: "Ms. Ross,can you please check with the President?"
Nellie Tayloe Ross:"Okay,but it will be awhile."
Mr. Fahim: "That's fine."
.....two hours later....
Nellie Tayloe Ross: "Here's your export license,Mr. Fahim.Have a safe trip back to Egypt."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>The government's issuance of an export license to allow a 1933 double eagle to be sent to Egypt was not a mistake. It was an intentional act/decision by the government. The decision to issue the export license was probably made with consideration of the politics of the time (WWII and Egypt being an ally that had recently had German occupiers forced out).
Though some may criticize the issuance of the export license, how many critics would give the government a mulligan or do over due to what in hind sight could be called a misguided wartime strategy? >>
The Germans never occupied Egypt. The British held them out at El Alemein (sp?) though it was a close run thing.
The Egyptians controlled the Suez Canal and that was important.
And, I think that the export license was issued before the flap over the piece in the Stacks auction.