Fantastic news! Thank you Sanction for staying on this!
I have said before that the Langbords' attorney was a genius for lulling the government into a false sense of security by handing the coins over and waiting to see if they would handle it right. The government assumed that they had won and sat on their thumbs and missed the deadline. THis is probably the only way that the Langbords could have one, and he pulled it off!
WHat is the legal profession's equivalent of an Academy Award? This guy gets it!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Sanction II what are the next steps and the time frame? With it being a 2-1 decision I imagine the government will go to the full appeals court, and the supreme court if necessary.
<< <i>Sanction II what are the next steps and the time frame? With it being a 2-1 decision I imagine the government will go to the full appeals court, and the supreme court if necessary. >>
The government has three options:
1) Give up at this point.
2) Request that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals hear the case en banc (meaning all 13 judges from the court would participate and not just a 3 judge panel) -- while this can be requested, this is not something the court has to do.
3) Appeal to the Supreme Court
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>Sanction II what are the next steps and the time frame? With it being a 2-1 decision I imagine the government will go to the full appeals court, and the supreme court if necessary. >>
The government has three options:
1) Give up at this point.
2) Request that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals hear the case en banc (meaning all 13 judges from the court would participate and not just a 3 judge panel) -- while this can be requested, this is not something the court has to do.
<< <i>The one thing to keep in mind is that this may NOT be the final decision. I would expect the Government to file an appeal to the Supreme Court.
Greg >>
The U.S. Supreme Court will never take this case. As it currently stands, they only take about 100 cases a year out of the thousands of possible cases. I don't see much here that would interest them.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Exactly how long has this nonsense been going on for? I'm torn between being happier that the coins are to be returned and enter the marketplace, or that the gov't actually lost this case. >>
I believe that these came to light in 2005(?) if not earlier. They were sent to the Treasury Department for authentication at which point they were then confiscated. I have photo's of the coins at the 2006 ANA Worlds Fair of Money in August 2006.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
A big thank you to sanction for his years of dedication to updating the boards!
This is much better than than the $50 million dollars worth of coins found underwater and melted by the government 2 days ago... link to found and melted coins
Just finished reading the opinion. The Langbords won on a technicality... an important technicality, but still just a violation of the "process" the government was supposed to follow. The appellate court didn't make any finding as to whether the Double Eagles were taken out of the mint illegally back in 1933.
Anyway, it's a fantastic win on many levels. Regardless of his intentions, Israel Switt did the numismatic community a huge service by saving these ten super-rare coins from the melting pot.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>Just finished reading the opinion. The Langbords won on a technicality... an important technicality, but still just a violation of the "process" the government was supposed to follow. The appellate court didn't make any finding as to whether the Double Eagles were taken out of the mint illegally back in 1933.
Anyway, it's a fantastic win on many levels. Regardless of his intentions, Israel Switt did the numismatic community a huge service by saving these ten super-rare coins from the melting pot. >>
I cannot help but wonder if the Justice Department had taken notice of public opinion regarding the waste of time and money being wasted on these coins and intentionally failed to meet the required deadline in order to end the litigation?
Nah. This boo boo occurred back when they first confiscated them. Boy am I stupid!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Awesome. RWB and QDB are probably already busy writing copy for a prospective catalog. Seems certain at least one coin will have to come out to cover the legal expense.
A big thanks to SanctionII for the ever-vigilant legal coverage.
<< <i>I would dare challenge any citizen anywhere to find a better system of governance than this >>
A Benevolent Dictatorship might work pretty well. The case could have been decided in about an hour. >>
That's a great oxymoron. "Benevolent dictatorship" is kind of funny, too. And you're right, IF benevolence were the nature of our way of life, or any government's, then politicians and lobbyists would be out of work. But that's another tail on a different donkey. Our court system is tied up with a lot of other 'frivolous" cases, as it were. I can't imagine the hours spent on the Langbord case already.
No doubt today's decision will generate substantial discussion. It likely will result in further legal efforts (by the government) to get en banc review by the 3rd circuit and thereafter review by the US Supreme Court.
Thanks for the props.
Now for more important things, I went to a coin show today to socialize with Skyman and Crazyhoundog. Great to see them. Did not plan to buy. However while snooping the bourse I scored some great cherrypicks. Cherrypicks are much better than the law.
Yes, they do. And thanks again to Sanction II for keeping us up to date… and if the government hurries, the Langbords can take advantage of that $10 cross over special PCGS is having. Offer closes on the 30th of April.
A little "side bar" for the Friday Night Happy Hour crowd.
<< <i>Awesome. RWB and QDB are probably already busy writing copy for a prospective catalog. Seems certain at least one coin will have to come out to cover the legal expense.
A big thanks to SanctionII for the ever-vigilant legal coverage. >>
I would buy the QDB book.
RWB was a paid "expert" witness (for the Langbords) in the original trial. According to the reported Coin World account, the government's cross-examination of RWB revealed statements that he had made previously on this forum, and that was perhaps the biggest blow to the Langbord's original case.
<< <i>Great! When will the bidding start at Heritage? I'm in.
U.S. must return rare double eagle gold coins to family By Jonathan Stempel
(Reuters) - The U.S. government must return 10 exceptionally rare gold coins worth millions of dollars each to a Pennsylvania family from which the purloined coins were seized a decade ago, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.
By a 2-1 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David are the rightful owners of the double eagle $20 gold pieces, after the government ignored their claim to the coins and missed a deadline to seek their forfeiture.
"The government knew that it was obligated to bring a judicial civil forfeiture proceeding or to return the property, but refused," Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell wrote. "Having failed to do so, it must return the Double Eagles to the Langbords."
Patricia Hartman, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Zane Memeger in Philadelphia, said: "We are weighing our options."
The Philadelphia Mint in 1933 produced 445,500 double eagles. But they were not circulated because President Franklin Roosevelt, trying to halt a bank panic, removed gold coins from circulation and made ownership of large amounts illegal.
Most of the coins were melted down, but a few were smuggled out, including one that fetched $7.6 million at a 2002 auction after having once been possessed by Egypt's King Farouk.
The government had long suspected without proving that the late Israel Switt, a gold dealer and father of Joan Langbord, had smuggled some of the coins with the help of a Mint employee.
Smuggled??!!?? How exactly was the Farouk example smuggled? As for the the other examples, where is the 100% PROOF that they were smuggled? Who writes this crap?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I glad that the government lost, but it took 10 years. How long will it take to get the coins back? I doubt they will send them over on Monday morning.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Great! When will the bidding start at Heritage? I'm in.
U.S. must return rare double eagle gold coins to family By Jonathan Stempel
(Reuters) - The U.S. government must return 10 exceptionally rare gold coins worth millions of dollars each to a Pennsylvania family from which the purloined coins were seized a decade ago, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.
By a 2-1 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David are the rightful owners of the double eagle $20 gold pieces, after the government ignored their claim to the coins and missed a deadline to seek their forfeiture.
"The government knew that it was obligated to bring a judicial civil forfeiture proceeding or to return the property, but refused," Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell wrote. "Having failed to do so, it must return the Double Eagles to the Langbords."
Patricia Hartman, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Zane Memeger in Philadelphia, said: "We are weighing our options."
The Philadelphia Mint in 1933 produced 445,500 double eagles. But they were not circulated because President Franklin Roosevelt, trying to halt a bank panic, removed gold coins from circulation and made ownership of large amounts illegal.
Most of the coins were melted down, but a few were smuggled out, including one that fetched $7.6 million at a 2002 auction after having once been possessed by Egypt's King Farouk.
The government had long suspected without proving that the late Israel Switt, a gold dealer and father of Joan Langbord, had smuggled some of the coins with the help of a Mint employee.
Smuggled??!!?? How exactly was the Farouk example smuggled? As for the the other examples, where is the 100% PROOF that they were smuggled? Who writes this crap? >>
No kidding, the Farouk coin left the mint the same way these 10 did (and all other known examples except perhaps 1). I wish they could have charged switt back in the 40's for and took it to trial at that time and none of this stuff would be happening now. Still makes you wonder why the people with money to fight this in the 50's didn't.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Wow! I never expected this result. Do we give credit to their strategy of boldly turning them in for identification? How else could the coins have been sanitized?
My support of the family is based on the inability of the government to prove something fishy happened, whether it did or not.
Sanction, thanks a million for your unwavering efforts to keep us up to date. Kudos!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place.
I suppose FDR's order might be a factor there, but there were a lot of people who disregarded that order. The government hasn't made a point of chasing after anyone else.
I think it's over.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
<< <i>I can hear Laura Sperber warming up her pen and the her checkbook now........ >>
Actually, I sincerely said that I would pay $20M for the deal. When TDN said $22M, I offered to split. I would work on 2%, but will ask 3% 'cause It's got momentum. Comes complete with a marketing/distribution plan even better than the VDB mattes. Lots better.
But Pres. Jeb Bush II or Pres. Chelsea will likely preside at the turnover ceremony. Or it could be sent registered mail. . .
Bill Shamhart's son Liam will be the sticker king, with Frank Albanese steady at second base.
I hope my estate won't be settled before they hit the market. . . .
Sanction, this has been a great service you've done us from Day 1.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place.
I suppose FDR's order might be a factor there, but there were a lot of people who disregarded that order. The government hasn't made a point of chasing after anyone else.
I think it's over. >>
Flannagan (?) (Stacks 1944 ?), withdrawn. IIRC Mehl had one. Farouk's was withdrawn at Secret Service request and I don't remember whether what year it was de-monetized. I think a couple of people just handed them back (not qualified for withdrawn list) .
Major thanks to Sanction for his generous contribution of time and expertise.
Some small thanks to those who don't really practice law, but did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and for some quite erudite questions and observations.
Has long has the case been going on exactly? I'm 71. Will I have a chance to own one while I can still see it?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Great news! Thanks SanctionII for keeping us informed.
Yet another example of executive branch overreach IMHO. A few have commented that the government has no skin in the game so they stall, deny, delay, and spend the taxpayers money without even thinking about it. All in hopes to break the bank of the plaintiffs instead of what is morally right. You can bet they will wait until the last possible moment to decide to appeal. From their perspective, the longer it takes the better. After all, the longer they delay the inevitable outcome, the less time the Langbords can enjoy the fruits of their win - and the less they win due to legal fees. Props to the Langbords for hanging in there.
Go ahead and flame me, I despise the Treasury - especially teeny tiny Timmy Geithner.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place. >>
I don't actually think it's over. I'm going to rain on the parade a bit.
The appellate court ordered the district court to return the coins. There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work.
It's just that the government wouldn't have the coins in their physical possession. But much like they demand somebody's passport if there a flight risk they could demand that the coins be held in some kind of a trustee arrangement so that they are not sold and spirited out of the country.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place. >>
I don't actually think it's over. I'm going to rain on the parade a bit.
The appellate court ordered the district court to return the coins. There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work.
It's just that the government wouldn't have the coins in their physical possession. But much like they demand somebody's passport if there a flight risk they could demand that the coins be held in some kind of a trustee arrangement so that they are not sold and spirited out of the country. >>
requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same.
I believe this is the greatest country there is.. unfortunately its run by idiots. congrats to the langbords. our government should not feel it has the authority to seize personal items from the citizens based on what they believe may have happened decades ago. id be very surprised if they ever do get the coins back.
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i>There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work. >>
This is prohibited under various interrelated legal doctrines -- res judicata / claim splitting / collateral estoppel. They can't do it. Any such lawsuit would get tossed very quickly.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>The gov't attorneys (and gov't in general) have no skin in the game, hence the endless legal battle.
Always easy to spend other peoples money. >>
It should come as no surprise to anyone that money is no object when the Gov't wants to prove a point, after all they print it, or at the very least enter a number into a computer to show it's "there".
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
If the Government does not—(i) file a complaint for forfeiture or return the property, in accordance with subparagraph [(3)](A) . . . the Government shall promptly release the property pursuant to regulations promulgated by the Attorney General, and may not take any further action to effect the civil forfeiture of such property in connection with the underlying offense.8 18 U.S.C. § 983(a).
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict? >>
Hmmmm. Six year statute of limitations on the estate tax have passed...so that's out the window. 28% collectible capital gains on the coins will apply but what is the basis?
<< <i>Bad news for the owner of the original one that was "legal" to own. That price realized will plummet if these all come to market. >>
Totally. Don't remember all of the details, but wasn't it part of the deal in monetizing that one 1933 $20 that the Government also guaranteed that it would be the only 1933 $20 to be monetized/legal to own? If that was the case, I wonder if the owner of that 1933 $20 can/will file a suit in the near future.
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict? >>
Hmmmm. Six year statute of limitations on the estate tax have passed...so that's out the window. 28% collectible capital gains on the coins will apply but what is the basis? >>
I am guessing but I think the basis for each one is $20 each plus one tenth of the legal fees.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Comments
The government hates competition.
I have said before that the Langbords' attorney was a genius for lulling the government into a false sense of security by handing the coins over and waiting to see if they would handle it right. The government assumed that they had won and sat on their thumbs and missed the deadline. THis is probably the only way that the Langbords could have one, and he pulled it off!
WHat is the legal profession's equivalent of an Academy Award? This guy gets it!
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>Sanction II what are the next steps and the time frame? With it being a 2-1 decision I imagine the government will go to the full appeals court, and the supreme court if necessary. >>
The government has three options:
1) Give up at this point.
2) Request that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals hear the case en banc (meaning all 13 judges from the court would participate and not just a 3 judge panel) -- while this can be requested, this is not something the court has to do.
3) Appeal to the Supreme Court
Greg
<< <i>The gov't attorneys (and gov't in general) have no skin in the game, hence the endless legal battle.
Always easy to spend other peoples money. >>
Agree.
Thank you again Sanction.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Article about the 1933 $20's
US Mint press release from 2006 regarding the Langbord ten
<< <i>
<< <i>Sanction II what are the next steps and the time frame? With it being a 2-1 decision I imagine the government will go to the full appeals court, and the supreme court if necessary. >>
The government has three options:
1) Give up at this point.
2) Request that the Third Circuit Court of Appeals hear the case en banc (meaning all 13 judges from the court would participate and not just a 3 judge panel) -- while this can be requested, this is not something the court has to do.
3) Appeal to the Supreme Court
Greg >>
Thanks for the summary of options.
<< <i>The one thing to keep in mind is that this may NOT be the final decision. I would expect the Government to file an appeal to the Supreme Court.
Greg >>
The U.S. Supreme Court will never take this case. As it currently stands, they only take about 100 cases a year out of the thousands of possible cases. I don't see much here that would interest them.
<< <i>
Article about the 1933 $20's
US Mint press release from 2006 regarding the Langbord ten >>
They all look sweet!
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
It is nice to see that there is still some honesty and decency in the court system.
This is one of the coins I will seriously pursue if any of them are available.
The story of the forbidden fruit.
<< <i>Exactly how long has this nonsense been going on for? I'm torn between being happier that the coins are to be returned and enter the marketplace, or that the gov't actually lost this case. >>
I believe that these came to light in 2005(?) if not earlier. They were sent to the Treasury Department for authentication at which point they were then confiscated.
I have photo's of the coins at the 2006 ANA Worlds Fair of Money in August 2006.
The name is LEE!
This is much better than than the $50 million dollars worth of coins found underwater and melted by the government 2 days ago...
link to found and melted coins
Now if I could just win the lottery.
Anyway, it's a fantastic win on many levels. Regardless of his intentions, Israel Switt did the numismatic community a huge service by saving these ten super-rare coins from the melting pot.
<< <i>Just finished reading the opinion. The Langbords won on a technicality... an important technicality, but still just a violation of the "process" the government was supposed to follow. The appellate court didn't make any finding as to whether the Double Eagles were taken out of the mint illegally back in 1933.
Anyway, it's a fantastic win on many levels. Regardless of his intentions, Israel Switt did the numismatic community a huge service by saving these ten super-rare coins from the melting pot. >>
I cannot help but wonder if the Justice Department had taken notice of public opinion regarding the waste of time and money being wasted on these coins and intentionally failed to meet the required deadline in order to end the litigation?
Nah. This boo boo occurred back when they first confiscated them. Boy am I stupid!
The name is LEE!
A big thanks to SanctionII for the ever-vigilant legal coverage.
District Court’s order entering judgment. We will remand for the District Court to order the Government to return the Double Eagles to the Langbords.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would dare challenge any citizen anywhere to find a better system of governance than this >>
A Benevolent Dictatorship might work pretty well. The case could have been decided in about an hour. >>
That's a great oxymoron. "Benevolent dictatorship" is kind of funny, too. And you're right, IF benevolence were the nature of our way of life, or any government's, then politicians and lobbyists would be out of work. But that's another tail on a different donkey. Our court system is tied up with a lot of other 'frivolous" cases, as it were. I can't imagine the hours spent on the Langbord case already.
Thanks for the props.
Now for more important things, I went to a coin show today to socialize with Skyman and Crazyhoundog. Great to see them. Did not plan to buy. However while snooping the bourse I scored some great cherrypicks. Cherrypicks are much better than the law.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Article about the 1933 $20's
US Mint press release from 2006 regarding the Langbord ten >>
They all look sweet! >>
Yes, they do. And thanks again to Sanction II for keeping us up to date… and if the government hurries, the Langbords can take advantage of that $10 cross over special PCGS is having. Offer closes on the 30th of April.
A little "side bar" for the Friday Night Happy Hour crowd.
<< <i>Awesome. RWB and QDB are probably already busy writing copy for a prospective catalog. Seems certain at least one coin will have to come out to cover the legal expense.
A big thanks to SanctionII for the ever-vigilant legal coverage. >>
I would buy the QDB book.
RWB was a paid "expert" witness (for the Langbords) in the original trial. According to the reported Coin World account, the government's cross-examination of RWB revealed statements that he had made previously on this forum, and that was perhaps the biggest blow to the Langbord's original case.
<< <i>Regardless of whether or not justice was done (or not) I think we all owe SanctionII a BIG VOTE OF THANKS!!!!! >>
+1
thanks!
i've enjoyed following this and having put in no more effort than to just visit the forum and read all he typed.
.
<< <i>Great! When will the bidding start at Heritage? I'm in.
U.S. must return rare double eagle gold coins to family
By Jonathan Stempel
(Reuters) - The U.S. government must return 10 exceptionally rare gold coins worth millions of dollars each to a Pennsylvania family from which the purloined coins were seized a decade ago, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.
By a 2-1 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David are the rightful owners of the double eagle $20 gold pieces, after the government ignored their claim to the coins and missed a deadline to seek their forfeiture.
"The government knew that it was obligated to bring a judicial civil forfeiture proceeding or to return the property, but refused," Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell wrote. "Having failed to do so, it must return the Double Eagles to the Langbords."
Patricia Hartman, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Zane Memeger in Philadelphia, said: "We are weighing our options."
The Philadelphia Mint in 1933 produced 445,500 double eagles. But they were not circulated because President Franklin Roosevelt, trying to halt a bank panic, removed gold coins from circulation and made ownership of large amounts illegal.
Most of the coins were melted down, but a few were smuggled out, including one that fetched $7.6 million at a 2002 auction after having once been possessed by Egypt's King Farouk.
The government had long suspected without proving that the late Israel Switt, a gold dealer and father of Joan Langbord, had smuggled some of the coins with the help of a Mint employee.
It seized the Langbords' double eagles after the family located the coins in a safe deposit box once belonging to Switt, and sought to have the Mint authenticate them.
http://news.yahoo.com/u-must-return-rare-double-eagle-gold-coins-185510525--finance.html >>
Smuggled??!!?? How exactly was the Farouk example smuggled? As for the the other examples, where is the 100% PROOF that they were smuggled? Who writes this crap?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>A big thank you to sanction for his years of dedication to updating the boards!
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>Great! When will the bidding start at Heritage? I'm in.
U.S. must return rare double eagle gold coins to family
By Jonathan Stempel
(Reuters) - The U.S. government must return 10 exceptionally rare gold coins worth millions of dollars each to a Pennsylvania family from which the purloined coins were seized a decade ago, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.
By a 2-1 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David are the rightful owners of the double eagle $20 gold pieces, after the government ignored their claim to the coins and missed a deadline to seek their forfeiture.
"The government knew that it was obligated to bring a judicial civil forfeiture proceeding or to return the property, but refused," Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell wrote. "Having failed to do so, it must return the Double Eagles to the Langbords."
Patricia Hartman, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Zane Memeger in Philadelphia, said: "We are weighing our options."
The Philadelphia Mint in 1933 produced 445,500 double eagles. But they were not circulated because President Franklin Roosevelt, trying to halt a bank panic, removed gold coins from circulation and made ownership of large amounts illegal.
Most of the coins were melted down, but a few were smuggled out, including one that fetched $7.6 million at a 2002 auction after having once been possessed by Egypt's King Farouk.
The government had long suspected without proving that the late Israel Switt, a gold dealer and father of Joan Langbord, had smuggled some of the coins with the help of a Mint employee.
It seized the Langbords' double eagles after the family located the coins in a safe deposit box once belonging to Switt, and sought to have the Mint authenticate them.
http://news.yahoo.com/u-must-return-rare-double-eagle-gold-coins-185510525--finance.html >>
Smuggled??!!?? How exactly was the Farouk example smuggled? As for the the other examples, where is the 100% PROOF that they were smuggled? Who writes this crap? >>
No kidding, the Farouk coin left the mint the same way these 10 did (and all other known examples except perhaps 1). I wish they could have charged switt back in the 40's for and took it to trial at that time and none of this stuff would be happening now. Still makes you wonder why the people with money to fight this in the 50's didn't.
My support of the family is based on the inability of the government to prove something fishy happened, whether it did or not.
Sanction, thanks a million for your unwavering efforts to keep us up to date. Kudos!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place.
I suppose FDR's order might be a factor there, but there were a lot of people who disregarded that order. The government hasn't made a point of chasing after anyone else.
I think it's over.
<< <i>I can hear Laura Sperber warming up her pen and the her checkbook now........ >>
Actually, I sincerely said that I would pay $20M for the deal. When TDN said $22M, I offered to split. I would work on 2%, but will ask 3% 'cause It's got momentum. Comes complete with a marketing/distribution plan even better than the VDB mattes. Lots better.
But Pres. Jeb Bush II or Pres. Chelsea will likely preside at the turnover ceremony. Or it could be sent registered mail. . .
Bill Shamhart's son Liam will be the sticker king, with Frank Albanese steady at second base.
I hope my estate won't be settled before they hit the market. . . .
Sanction, this has been a great service you've done us from Day 1.
<< <i>As a layman, this is my take.
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place.
I suppose FDR's order might be a factor there, but there were a lot of people who disregarded that order. The government hasn't made a point of chasing after anyone else.
I think it's over. >>
Flannagan (?) (Stacks 1944 ?), withdrawn. IIRC Mehl had one. Farouk's was withdrawn at Secret Service request and I don't remember whether what year it was de-monetized. I think a couple of people just handed them back (not qualified for withdrawn list) .
Major thanks to Sanction for his generous contribution of time and expertise.
Some small thanks to those who don't really practice law, but did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and for some quite erudite questions and observations.
Has long has the case been going on exactly? I'm 71. Will I have a chance to own one while I can still see it?
Yet another example of executive branch overreach IMHO. A few have commented that the government has no skin in the game so they stall, deny, delay, and spend the taxpayers money without even thinking about it. All in hopes to break the bank of the plaintiffs instead of what is morally right. You can bet they will wait until the last possible moment to decide to appeal. From their perspective, the longer it takes the better. After all, the longer they delay the inevitable outcome, the less time the Langbords can enjoy the fruits of their win - and the less they win due to legal fees. Props to the Langbords for hanging in there.
Go ahead and flame me, I despise the Treasury - especially teeny tiny Timmy Geithner.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Who owns the Ex-Farouk specimen? He must be thrilled by this turn of events.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>As a layman, this is my take.
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place. >>
I don't actually think it's over. I'm going to rain on the parade a bit.
The appellate court ordered the district court to return the coins. There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work.
It's just that the government wouldn't have the coins in their physical possession. But much like they demand somebody's passport if there a flight risk they could demand that the coins be held in some kind of a trustee arrangement so that they are not sold and spirited out of the country.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Great to see the Langbords get a favorable ruling.
<< <i>
<< <i>As a layman, this is my take.
I'm guessing this is the end of the road for the Federal Government on this issue. It just seems that:
1. They'd be in contempt of court if they refused to return the coins.
2. The government would have to get the 3rd Circuit to overrule the 3 judge panel, not impossible, but unlikely.
3. Then the government would still be obligated to prove the coins were not obtained legally in the first place. >>
I don't actually think it's over. I'm going to rain on the parade a bit.
The appellate court ordered the district court to return the coins. There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work.
It's just that the government wouldn't have the coins in their physical possession. But much like they demand somebody's passport if there a flight risk they could demand that the coins be held in some kind of a trustee arrangement so that they are not sold and spirited out of the country. >>
requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>There's absolutely nothing in the ruling that prevents the government from filing a new case repeating all the allegations that they were stolen which were proven at trial. Yes the district court's order set aside the trial's result. But there's no such thing as double jeopardy. In fact from the jury's verdict and other things they would know what did and didn't work. >>
This is prohibited under various interrelated legal doctrines -- res judicata / claim splitting / collateral estoppel. They can't do it. Any such lawsuit would get tossed very quickly.
<< <i>The gov't attorneys (and gov't in general) have no skin in the game, hence the endless legal battle.
Always easy to spend other peoples money. >>
It should come as no surprise to anyone that money is no object when the Gov't wants to prove a point, after all they print it, or at the very least enter a number into a computer to show it's "there".
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
18 U.S.C. § 983(a).
<< <i>
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict? >>
Hmmmm. Six year statute of limitations on the estate tax have passed...so that's out the window. 28% collectible capital gains on the coins will apply but what is the basis?
<< <i>Bad news for the owner of the original one that was "legal" to own. That price realized will plummet if these all come to market. >>
Totally. Don't remember all of the details, but wasn't it part of the deal in monetizing that one 1933 $20 that the Government also guaranteed that it would be the only 1933 $20 to be monetized/legal to own? If that was the case, I wonder if the owner of that 1933 $20 can/will file a suit in the near future.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The gummint will probably just use the IRS to get even with them after relinquishing the coins. >>
Well, if the Langbords sell some of the coins, of course there will be taxes that they have to pay. And when their lawyers get paid, they will have to pay taxes also.
If the government had accepted a 50 - 50 split at the start, considering all of the taxes that will have to be paid anyway, they would be way ahead of where they are now. And if they don't want the Langbords to profit too much, they should legalize any and all 1933 double eagles. If there are more out there, that will decrease the value of the Langbord coins.
So, will the government use this easy, no-cost solution? Or will they be angry and vindictive and appeal to either the full court or the Supreme Court? And if they do appeal, on what grounds do they appeal this verdict? >>
Hmmmm. Six year statute of limitations on the estate tax have passed...so that's out the window. 28% collectible capital gains on the coins will apply but what is the basis? >>
I am guessing but I think the basis for each one is $20 each plus one tenth of the legal fees.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.