Morgan Dollar Prooflike Specialiss Opinion Wanted
ricardouno
Posts: 242 ✭✭
I have been collecting Morgan Silver Dollars for almost 40 years. My main interest has been in prooflikes.
My question concerns an 1880-O Morgan which I recently submitted to PCGS for certification and grading. I purchased this coin about 25 years ago at a major coin convention from one of the leading Silver Dollar dealers in the country at that time. The coin was for me something very special. It had fully deep mirror prooflike surfaces with very decent cameo contrast. Although not a black mirror cameo it was quite deep and very eye-appealing. Furthermore, as 1880-O's went it was free of hideous and distracting bagmarks. In fact, in this respect, it was among he cleanest of this date I had ever seen. As expected it was a VAM 4 which is typical of deep mirrored coins of this date. I purchased the coin for $1250, almost an astronomical sum at the time, as 1880-O in deep mirror could be had for $250 as normally found. Leading dealers were very interested in the coin at multiples of "bid" but they balked at paying the asking price.
Flash forward 25 years to today: A few months ago I submitted the coin (as a single coin submission) to PCGS and it came back in a plastic flip saying on it that it had altered surfaces. This surprised me. Although I am not an expert on the subject, decades of collecting and viewing coins did not suggest to me that this was the case at all. Seeking another opinion, I recently submited the coin to NGC and received it back graded as a MS64 DMPL.
My questions are these: This coin is, in my opinion, one heck of a coin. While I might be able to somehow accept, under the strictest technical modern day guidelines, that this coin might possibly be"just" a 64 I cannot see sacrificing/selling this coin around the MS64 DMPL levels as presently listing in the reference guides. I am also adverse to innumerable submissions and re-submissions to the grading services. Therefore, what steps should I take next? Will this coin "speak for itself" if placed in a major auction as it presently resides in its holder? Should a crossover to PCGS be attempted? Also, as a general observation are the grading services being overly tight to pull the trigger and grade a wonder coin at the ultimate range if there is ANY doubt conceivable?
Any help/guidance from established dealer or collector experts in this field and the person knowledgable in the coin market at the present time are extremely appreciated.
Here is the link to view the coin:
My question concerns an 1880-O Morgan which I recently submitted to PCGS for certification and grading. I purchased this coin about 25 years ago at a major coin convention from one of the leading Silver Dollar dealers in the country at that time. The coin was for me something very special. It had fully deep mirror prooflike surfaces with very decent cameo contrast. Although not a black mirror cameo it was quite deep and very eye-appealing. Furthermore, as 1880-O's went it was free of hideous and distracting bagmarks. In fact, in this respect, it was among he cleanest of this date I had ever seen. As expected it was a VAM 4 which is typical of deep mirrored coins of this date. I purchased the coin for $1250, almost an astronomical sum at the time, as 1880-O in deep mirror could be had for $250 as normally found. Leading dealers were very interested in the coin at multiples of "bid" but they balked at paying the asking price.
Flash forward 25 years to today: A few months ago I submitted the coin (as a single coin submission) to PCGS and it came back in a plastic flip saying on it that it had altered surfaces. This surprised me. Although I am not an expert on the subject, decades of collecting and viewing coins did not suggest to me that this was the case at all. Seeking another opinion, I recently submited the coin to NGC and received it back graded as a MS64 DMPL.
My questions are these: This coin is, in my opinion, one heck of a coin. While I might be able to somehow accept, under the strictest technical modern day guidelines, that this coin might possibly be"just" a 64 I cannot see sacrificing/selling this coin around the MS64 DMPL levels as presently listing in the reference guides. I am also adverse to innumerable submissions and re-submissions to the grading services. Therefore, what steps should I take next? Will this coin "speak for itself" if placed in a major auction as it presently resides in its holder? Should a crossover to PCGS be attempted? Also, as a general observation are the grading services being overly tight to pull the trigger and grade a wonder coin at the ultimate range if there is ANY doubt conceivable?
Any help/guidance from established dealer or collector experts in this field and the person knowledgable in the coin market at the present time are extremely appreciated.
Here is the link to view the coin:
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
That looks like a VERY nice DM 1880-O from your pic. It's very hard to tell from a pic however that coin does not appear to have altered surfaces. It is possible that PCGS saw something on the coin they didn't like under magnification and perhaps though it was lightly wiped or something, but it doesn't look like a coin that was obviously messed with or a California proof or anything like that to me. IMO, if that was an 80-S, PCGS probably would have easily slabbed it an MS65DM, however, on a date like an 80-O and the huge price on an 80-O in 65DM, or even a 64DM, they were probably a little apprehensive. I'm sure that NGC took a pretty close look at that coin also, and since they holdered it, I would have to say that it is most likely original, and a really nice looking 64DM to boot. IMO, for PCGS to holder an 80-O in 65DMPL, it would have to be a borderline 66DM coin, just because of the date and the big price tag involved.
I have heard all kinds of stories about PCGS rejecting coins and then holdering them at a later date and vice versa, so it really doesn't surprise me that they would reject a coin like that for whatever their reasons. IMO, it would not be worth the effort and expense in trying to cross that piece over to PCGS unless you NEED to have it in a PCGS holder for some reason. If the coin is original and looks as nice in person, it would be just fine in the NGC holder or even raw to a knowledgable buyer and worth a large premium. If you HAVE to have the coin in a PCGS holder, I would not send it to them in the NGC slab, I would try it as a raw coin again, but again, I would probably just leave it as is. Very impressive coin!
Dragon
I agree that would be a tough crossover but with a 50,000 jump from 64 to 65 why wouldn't you "invest" a couple hundred bucks with NGC on walk through regrades?
If I thought the coin was a solid 64 I would not bother with this inquiry, but I have slightly lesser quality prooflikes in PCGS holders as 65 DMPL.
Also, if I did not get a 65 designation from NGC and it went to public auction (in this market or similar) would the coin "speak for itself" and garner an appropriate premium to the assigned grade based on its individual appearence rather than the holder in which it resides?
Many thanks for all your help and I look forward to additional comments/insight/recommendations.
Here is a thread from the US Coins Forum that has a link to a very good video on "AT" coins. I think it was very educational, at least for me.
AT Video Thread by clackamas
Larry
Dabigkahuna
My $0.02:
Submit them both for regrade at the same time.