Bradshaw = Most overrated player in history of sports. >>
I don't know how anyone can call him the most overrated player in sports when we hear from everyone in the world that he is overrated. It seems like no one ever gives Bradshaw any credit for anything anymore and whenever his name is brought up, it's a similar tone as what you're saying.
More than any other sport by a wide margin, it's impossible to gauge an individual player's history and performance because football is a team game like no other. "Emmit Smith is so overrated because he had that O-Line" "Aikman is overrated because he had that line and Emmit Smith" "Jerry Rice is overrated because he had Montana and Young throwing to him most of his career"
Too much is out of an individual player's hands to accurately gauge who is the best or belongs on any given list. If a player has a great career with a great overall team you hear the overrated thing a lot. I've always felt Walter Payton was the best of all time because he consistently did the most with the least. As did OJ Simpson and Barry Sanders.
We all hope to make the most of what is given to us in life. Football players should be looked at that way too. The "Bradshaw is so overrated because his teams were so great" thing gets a bit old to me. Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls. The quarterback is inevitably a leader and someone the team looks to for leadership. Bradshaw provided that in a way that worked for his teammates. Bottom line is results and Bradshaw got it done. Jeff George may have been the most talented qb i've ever seen, but he wasn't a leader or an inspiration or anything else that had to do with winning. Bradshaw won
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>[ More than any other sport by a wide margin, it's impossible to gauge an individual player's history and performance because football is a team game like no other. "Emmit Smith is so overrated because he had that O-Line" "Aikman is overrated because he had that line and Emmit Smith" "Jerry Rice is overrated because he had Montana and Young throwing to him most of his career"
Too much is out of an individual player's hands to accurately gauge who is the best or belongs on any given list. If a player has a great career with a great overall team you hear the overrated thing a lot. I've always felt Walter Payton was the best of all time because he consistently did the most with the least. As did OJ Simpson and Barry Sanders. >>
That is all correct.
But then when you say, "Bradshaw got it done." "Bradshaw won." You just contradicted everything you said above, because as you said, there is too much out of their control to give them credit for a Super Bowl.
First of all, shame on you Skin2, for requiring me to spend so much time on the 1976 Steelers Football Reference page.
As far as Kruczek's better statistics go, remember the teams that they had their starts against partially illustrated in my first post.
Oppenents record in Kruczek's starts 34-50 (.404 winning percentage) Oppenents record in Bradshaw's starts 69-42-1 (.621 winning percentage)
I believe this counts for more in the numbers than just the W-L's.
I am glad you mentioned the 1978 rule change. Here we have a one player example (Bradshaw) of how drastically the passing game statistics will change due to the rule changes. Consider how different the rules are now (2014) compared to 1978. At this point we are comparing apples to radial tires. Bradshaw's low numbers through the rules of today have no context. His numbers in 1978 improved significantly due to the rules changes and the 1978 rules change was extremely minor compared to all the other changes between now and then.
The strength of opponents' records is for that season is a good point~in a baseball sense it's somewhat akin to Jim Rice raw numbers while hitting at Fenway..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Much of the "Bradshaw's backups were better/as good as him because look at the record" comes from the 1976 season when Bradshaw went 4-4 and Kruczek went 6-0. Lets take a deeper look. I have submitted the links below to the 1976 Steelers season.
Bradshaw got hurt in the Week 5 game against the Browns, a Cleveland win at 18-16. If you have access to YouTube I encourage you to search "Turkey Jones Bradshaw". Many of you have seen that hit. That was this 18-16 game. This dropped the Steelers to 1-4. The point totals that the Steel Curtain Defense gave up those 5 weeks were 31, 14, 30, 17 & 18. It is also noteworthy that during that 5 game stretch they played the Raiders & Vikings (The Super Bowl teams in 1976), the 11-3 Patriots, and rival Cleveland twice (which also provided their lone win).
Enter Mike Kruczek who went 6-0. The point totals the Steeler Defense gave up during the six games Mike Kruczek started: 6, 0, 0, 16, 3, 0. Also note that Kruczek threw a grand total of 0 TDs during this stretch and averaged 96.1 yrds/game never cracking even 200 yards. He won a game going 2-6 with 20 yards passing (he did add 17 on the ground) in a 23-0 win over SD. Also note that Bradshaw came into that game leading the Steelers to 17 4th quarter points (not bad for 70s football). That game is part of Kruczek's 6-0 starting record. Bradshaw doesn't get credit for that win which clearly is more his than Kruczek's (if we are going to bother crediting QBs with wins and losses).
So can we stop the nonsense that the backups were as good as Bradshaw. Quoting backup records is a dishonest/ignorant misuse of the stats. Bradshaw isn't a Top 15 all-time QB, but he wasn't a scrub either and he was a very important part of a 4-time Super Bowl champion. Stop the madness please. I'm a Browns fan, who needs a shower after standing up for Bradshaw. Don't make me do it again. Please start disparing Otto Graham. I'll enjoy standing up for him.
In each of the Steelers' Super Bowl victories, he posted a passer rating above 100. He led a fourth quarter comeback in the second and fourth games, and threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter of each game.
As a matter of fact, Bradshaw's fourth quarter passing statistics in the Super Bowl look like this:
11-16, 292 yards, 4 TD
That is not a typo. Bradshaw averaged 18 yards per pass attempt. He threw five incompletions against four touchdown passes. His final pass in his first three Super Bowls was a touchdown pass, and in his fourth Super Bowl, it was a 45-yard completion that set up a final touchdown.
His passer rating is a jaw-dropping 151.0, and he was awarded the MVP trophy in his final two Super Bowls.
Bradshaw doesn't just shine in the Super Bowl either.
There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game. Then there were the 1976 AFC divisional playoffs, where Bradshaw posted a perfect passer rating against the Baltimore Colts.
Bradshaw threw for two or more touchdown passes in his final seven postseason games, all of which the Steelers scored 27+ points. He averaged an incredible 8.4 yards per pass attempt throughout his playoff career.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
<< <i>Much of the "Bradshaw's backups were better/as good as him because look at the record" comes from the 1976 season when Bradshaw went 4-4 and Kruczek went 6-0. Lets take a deeper look. I have submitted the links below to the 1976 Steelers season.
Bradshaw got hurt in the Week 5 game against the Browns, a Cleveland win at 18-16. If you have access to YouTube I encourage you to search "Turkey Jones Bradshaw". Many of you have seen that hit. That was this 18-16 game. This dropped the Steelers to 1-4. The point totals that the Steel Curtain Defense gave up those 5 weeks were 31, 14, 30, 17 & 18. It is also noteworthy that during that 5 game stretch they played the Raiders & Vikings (The Super Bowl teams in 1976), the 11-3 Patriots, and rival Cleveland twice (which also provided their lone win).
Enter Mike Kruczek who went 6-0. The point totals the Steeler Defense gave up during the six games Mike Kruczek started: 6, 0, 0, 16, 3, 0. Also note that Kruczek threw a grand total of 0 TDs during this stretch and averaged 96.1 yrds/game never cracking even 200 yards. He won a game going 2-6 with 20 yards passing (he did add 17 on the ground) in a 23-0 win over SD. Also note that Bradshaw came into that game leading the Steelers to 17 4th quarter points (not bad for 70s football). That game is part of Kruczek's 6-0 starting record. Bradshaw doesn't get credit for that win which clearly is more his than Kruczek's (if we are going to bother crediting QBs with wins and losses).
So can we stop the nonsense that the backups were as good as Bradshaw. Quoting backup records is a dishonest/ignorant misuse of the stats. Bradshaw isn't a Top 15 all-time QB, but he wasn't a scrub either and he was a very important part of a 4-time Super Bowl champion. Stop the madness please. I'm a Browns fan, who needs a shower after standing up for Bradshaw. Don't make me do it again. Please start disparing Otto Graham. I'll enjoy standing up for him.
In each of the Steelers' Super Bowl victories, he posted a passer rating above 100. He led a fourth quarter comeback in the second and fourth games, and threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter of each game.
As a matter of fact, Bradshaw's fourth quarter passing statistics in the Super Bowl look like this:
11-16, 292 yards, 4 TD
That is not a typo. Bradshaw averaged 18 yards per pass attempt. He threw five incompletions against four touchdown passes. His final pass in his first three Super Bowls was a touchdown pass, and in his fourth Super Bowl, it was a 45-yard completion that set up a final touchdown.
His passer rating is a jaw-dropping 151.0, and he was awarded the MVP trophy in his final two Super Bowls.
Bradshaw doesn't just shine in the Super Bowl either.
There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game. Then there were the 1976 AFC divisional playoffs, where Bradshaw posted a perfect passer rating against the Baltimore Colts.
Bradshaw threw for two or more touchdown passes in his final seven postseason games, all of which the Steelers scored 27+ points. He averaged an incredible 8.4 yards per pass attempt throughout his playoff career. >>
Chicks and garnettstyle dig the long ball
Bradshaw = average. Maybe above average. That's as far as I can go. I said the same thing every time I watched him play. We could be talking about Terry Hanratty very instead of Bradshaw very easily. Interchangeable in my opinion
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Garnettstyle did you ever see Bradshaw play in real time?
You ridicule Brady for two Super Bowl losses to the Giants. One was because of a miracle play. Yet you give Bradshaw full marks on perhaps the single most luckiest play in sports history. Never have I seen someone pick and choice their spots more then you and ignore facts that don't fit your story. You are brilliant in that regard. I'm guessing you are young and from Eastern Ohio ; ) just a guess.
Are you the poster formerly known as Soundguard or is that seebelow?
<There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game>
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was wondering what had happened to soundgard, LOL...welcome back!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Garnettstyle did you ever see Bradshaw play in real time?
You ridicule Brady for two Super Bowl losses to the Giants. One was because of a miracle play. Yet you give Bradshaw full marks on perhaps the single most luckiest play in sports history. Never have I seen someone pick and choice their spots more then you and ignore facts that don't fit your story. You are brilliant in that regard. I'm guessing you are young and from Eastern Ohio ; ) just a guess.
Are you the poster formerly known as Soundguard or is that seebelow?
<There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game> >>
Great read. The Bradshaw debate takes me back to being a kid. One of my earliest memories of football was at my Uncles house(garage). My 2 uncles and my dad in the garage, having a cold one, and talking ball. Dad is a die-hard Steelers fan, the 1 uncle that is in this story a Cowboys fan.
Well debating back and forth, each one of em building up their team, yada, yada. Then my uncle said something, "The Steelers won despite Bradshaw, not because of him" Then it got quiet for what seemed like an eternity. Then dad came back with something like, the steel curtain was the greatest defense to ever play (or something to that effect). I only remember that because of the quiet. It was never quiet when them 3 were drinking Looking back, I take it as dad agreed, but wouldnt dare admit it.
As for me, started watching around 84/85 or so. Of the QBs ive actually seen play, I can narrow it down to 3. Brady, Marino, Montana. I probably lean Montana, but any list (during my time watching ball) that doesnt have them 3 at the top doesnt hold any merit with me. I cant honestly speak of the all-time greats.
On a side note, if memory serves, seems like all 3 agreed that Fouts was good. Of course, looking back, this all would of happened in the early 80's, so Fouts would of been hot at the time.
01. Tom Brady 02. Joe Montana 03. Peyton Manning 04. John Elway 05. Dan Marino 06. Brett Favre 07. Terry Bradshaw 08. Roger Staubach 09. Johnny Unitas 10. Steve Young 11. Jim Kelly 12. Fran Tarkenton 13. Troy Aikman 14. Joe Namath 15. Drew Brees 16. Bart Starr
Personally, I would take Namath off the list, and add Otto Graham.
You have to put Otto Graham and Sam Baugh on the list. Breeze off and Broadway Joe gone. I may be older than most posters, but John Unitias belongs in the top five, if not number three. move Roger the dodger up the list.
to put things into perspective, consider a QB such as Otto Graham playing within today's rules and Tom Brady playing within the rules of the 1950's NFL with no facemask. I dare say that Graham would flourish while Brady might make it through a few games before he crumpled into a heap. the best QB from the modern era equipped to play in days gone by is Rothlisberger. his stats probably would stay the same, the guy is a beast and a player for the ages, and I'm a Browns fan!!!
its the same thing as the people that say Jim Brown was the best ever and refuse to even listen to reasonable debates over it. I would listen to a reasonable debate just before I start to laugh.
<< <i>to put things into perspective, consider a QB such as Otto Graham playing within today's rules and Tom Brady playing within the rules of the 1950's NFL with no facemask. I dare say that Graham would flourish while Brady might make it through a few games before he crumpled into a heap. the best QB from the modern era equipped to play in days gone by is Rothlisberger. his stats probably would stay the same, the guy is a beast and a player for the ages, and I'm a Browns fan!!!
its the same thing as the people that say Jim Brown was the best ever and refuse to even listen to reasonable debates over it. I would listen to a reasonable debate just before I start to laugh. >>
I have to thank you, this was one of the funniest posts I've read in a very long time, your football knowledge is so pitifully limited its a great comic relief!!
<< <i>Brady is bigger than linebackers from the 50s. He would have no trouble playing back then. >>
Exactly. If you're going to transplant players back into different eras, you have to do with all components intact, not just those that favor your argument.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Brady is bigger than linebackers from the 50s. He would have no trouble playing back then. >>
Exactly. If you're going to transplant players back into different eras, you have to do with all components intact, not just those that favor your argument. >>
Another way to look at it is how many of those same players in the 50's could actually play in today's game. Physically, not many.
I still love the pics of Unitas smoking a cigarette on the sidelines during a game.
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Lets call this the 16 best quarterbacks since Super Bowl I and move on.
You can't turn the clock back and stick Brady in the 1950s and claim he is as big as a linebacker. The diets, training and general conditioning for football (and even life in general) have changed since the 1930s and 40s. Today, the average NFL Offensive and Defensive lines are likely 50-60 lbs heavier than during the days of Otto Graham. Not only has the game changed, so have the size and weight of the players.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I liken the argument to the comparison of today's sprinters to Jesse Owens. If we take Jesse Owens' times and place them into today's context, he is a mid-range college sprinter, and no better. But, in his time he was as good as there was. So, what would he do now? Well, he would have the advantage of 80+ years of advances in sports science, nutrition, and training. There is certainly no guarantee that he would be a dominant sprinter in the Usain Bolt era, but I think that it can be safely said that he would improve his times significantly.
I look at NFL players the same way. If Unitas and Brady were switched in time, they would adapt to that era and probably be successful to some extent. The same? Probably not, since each of them had nearly perfect situations, but success nonetheless. How can anyone truly know for sure? My gut instincts say that George Mikan wouldn't succeed in today's NBA, but am I sure? Could someone have worked with him and turned him into a great NBA center of today's time? Maybe. Maybe Tom Brady would have been a Hardy Brown type linebacker that devastated opponents. Who knows?
<< <i>I have always thought that trying to compare athletes from different eras futile.
People can only be measured on how they performed against the competition they faced, the rest is speculation.
I guess you can enjoy any debate you like. I can't see the point of this one. >>
Ding!
It's great for sports bar discussions or pounding on a keyboard misstating an opinion is actually a fact.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>I have always thought that trying to compare athletes from different eras futile.
People can only be measured on how they performed against the competition they faced, the rest is speculation.
I guess you can enjoy any debate you like. I can't see the point of this one. >>
Ding!
It's great for sports bar discussions or pounding on a keyboard misstating an opinion is actually a fact.
>>
Thanks! I watched most of these QBs play and think Tarkenton should rate in the top 5 or at least the top 10. He played on horrible teams and when the Vikings got good they were a run first team. They didn't have a good WR until Fran was at the end of his career. The Giants were horrible when he was there.
It comes to mind that he might not even get drafted in today's game as he was small and didn't have a great arm. He was a tremendous player. Take the time to look at his career beyond the basic stats and you will see a guy that meant WINS to whatever team he played for! Too bad he wasn't a Super Bowl winner, that might change a few opinions.
I am also certain the old school stars would have been faster and stronger if they played now as they would benefit from modern nutrition and exercise programs.
Namath is another one who is getting somewhat bashed here. Few realize his knees were so bad the Dr that examined him AFTER the Jets signed him commented "I hope you have another Quarterback".
Bradshaw might have been an average QB during the regular season but he performed like a HOFer in big games. I would not give him the credit for the "immaculate reception" though, that should have been a game ending incompletion. Franco was the hero there.
Great memories. The game is too much passing now in my opinion.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
Teams wins super bowls. >>
Bradshaw = Most overrated player in history of sports.
>>
I don't know how anyone can call him the most overrated player in sports when we hear from everyone in the world that he is overrated. It seems like no one ever gives Bradshaw any credit for anything anymore and whenever his name is brought up, it's a similar tone as what you're saying.
More than any other sport by a wide margin, it's impossible to gauge an individual player's history and performance because football is a team game like no other. "Emmit Smith is so overrated because he had that O-Line" "Aikman is overrated because he had that line and Emmit Smith" "Jerry Rice is overrated because he had Montana and Young throwing to him most of his career"
Too much is out of an individual player's hands to accurately gauge who is the best or belongs on any given list. If a player has a great career with a great overall team you hear the overrated thing a lot. I've always felt Walter Payton was the best of all time because he consistently did the most with the least. As did OJ Simpson and Barry Sanders.
We all hope to make the most of what is given to us in life. Football players should be looked at that way too. The "Bradshaw is so overrated because his teams were so great" thing gets a bit old to me. Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls. The quarterback is inevitably a leader and someone the team looks to for leadership. Bradshaw provided that in a way that worked for his teammates. Bottom line is results and Bradshaw got it done. Jeff George may have been the most talented qb i've ever seen, but he wasn't a leader or an inspiration or anything else that had to do with winning. Bradshaw won
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>[
More than any other sport by a wide margin, it's impossible to gauge an individual player's history and performance because football is a team game like no other. "Emmit Smith is so overrated because he had that O-Line" "Aikman is overrated because he had that line and Emmit Smith" "Jerry Rice is overrated because he had Montana and Young throwing to him most of his career"
Too much is out of an individual player's hands to accurately gauge who is the best or belongs on any given list. If a player has a great career with a great overall team you hear the overrated thing a lot. I've always felt Walter Payton was the best of all time because he consistently did the most with the least. As did OJ Simpson and Barry Sanders.
>>
That is all correct.
But then when you say, "Bradshaw got it done." "Bradshaw won." You just contradicted everything you said above, because as you said, there is too much out of their control to give them credit for a Super Bowl.
As far as Kruczek's better statistics go, remember the teams that they had their starts against partially illustrated in my first post.
Oppenents record in Kruczek's starts 34-50 (.404 winning percentage)
Oppenents record in Bradshaw's starts 69-42-1 (.621 winning percentage)
I believe this counts for more in the numbers than just the W-L's.
I am glad you mentioned the 1978 rule change. Here we have a one player example (Bradshaw) of how drastically the passing game statistics will change due to the rule changes. Consider how different the rules are now (2014) compared to 1978. At this point we are comparing apples to radial tires. Bradshaw's low numbers through the rules of today have no context. His numbers in 1978 improved significantly due to the rules changes and the 1978 rules change was extremely minor compared to all the other changes between now and then.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Much of the "Bradshaw's backups were better/as good as him because look at the record" comes from the 1976 season when Bradshaw went 4-4 and Kruczek went 6-0. Lets take a deeper look. I have submitted the links below to the 1976 Steelers season.
Bradshaw got hurt in the Week 5 game against the Browns, a Cleveland win at 18-16. If you have access to YouTube I encourage you to search "Turkey Jones Bradshaw". Many of you have seen that hit. That was this 18-16 game. This dropped the Steelers to 1-4. The point totals that the Steel Curtain Defense gave up those 5 weeks were 31, 14, 30, 17 & 18. It is also noteworthy that during that 5 game stretch they played the Raiders & Vikings (The Super Bowl teams in 1976), the 11-3 Patriots, and rival Cleveland twice (which also provided their lone win).
Enter Mike Kruczek who went 6-0. The point totals the Steeler Defense gave up during the six games Mike Kruczek started: 6, 0, 0, 16, 3, 0. Also note that Kruczek threw a grand total of 0 TDs during this stretch and averaged 96.1 yrds/game never cracking even 200 yards. He won a game going 2-6 with 20 yards passing (he did add 17 on the ground) in a 23-0 win over SD. Also note that Bradshaw came into that game leading the Steelers to 17 4th quarter points (not bad for 70s football). That game is part of Kruczek's 6-0 starting record. Bradshaw doesn't get credit for that win which clearly is more his than Kruczek's (if we are going to bother crediting QBs with wins and losses).
So can we stop the nonsense that the backups were as good as Bradshaw. Quoting backup records is a dishonest/ignorant misuse of the stats. Bradshaw isn't a Top 15 all-time QB, but he wasn't a scrub either and he was a very important part of a 4-time Super Bowl champion. Stop the madness please. I'm a Browns fan, who needs a shower after standing up for Bradshaw. Don't make me do it again. Please start disparing Otto Graham. I'll enjoy standing up for him.
Sources:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/1976.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KrucMi00/gamelog/
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197610310pit.htm >>
Nice research.
Terry Bradshaw
Career postseason record: 14-5
Career postseason statistics: 261-456, 3833 yards, 30 TD, 26 INT; 83.0 passer rating
In each of the Steelers' Super Bowl victories, he posted a passer rating above 100. He led a fourth quarter comeback in the second and fourth games, and threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter of each game.
As a matter of fact, Bradshaw's fourth quarter passing statistics in the Super Bowl look like this:
11-16, 292 yards, 4 TD
That is not a typo. Bradshaw averaged 18 yards per pass attempt. He threw five incompletions against four touchdown passes. His final pass in his first three Super Bowls was a touchdown pass, and in his fourth Super Bowl, it was a 45-yard completion that set up a final touchdown.
His passer rating is a jaw-dropping 151.0, and he was awarded the MVP trophy in his final two Super Bowls.
Bradshaw doesn't just shine in the Super Bowl either.
There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game. Then there were the 1976 AFC divisional playoffs, where Bradshaw posted a perfect passer rating against the Baltimore Colts.
Bradshaw threw for two or more touchdown passes in his final seven postseason games, all of which the Steelers scored 27+ points. He averaged an incredible 8.4 yards per pass attempt throughout his playoff career.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
<< <i>
<< <i>Much of the "Bradshaw's backups were better/as good as him because look at the record" comes from the 1976 season when Bradshaw went 4-4 and Kruczek went 6-0. Lets take a deeper look. I have submitted the links below to the 1976 Steelers season.
Bradshaw got hurt in the Week 5 game against the Browns, a Cleveland win at 18-16. If you have access to YouTube I encourage you to search "Turkey Jones Bradshaw". Many of you have seen that hit. That was this 18-16 game. This dropped the Steelers to 1-4. The point totals that the Steel Curtain Defense gave up those 5 weeks were 31, 14, 30, 17 & 18. It is also noteworthy that during that 5 game stretch they played the Raiders & Vikings (The Super Bowl teams in 1976), the 11-3 Patriots, and rival Cleveland twice (which also provided their lone win).
Enter Mike Kruczek who went 6-0. The point totals the Steeler Defense gave up during the six games Mike Kruczek started: 6, 0, 0, 16, 3, 0. Also note that Kruczek threw a grand total of 0 TDs during this stretch and averaged 96.1 yrds/game never cracking even 200 yards. He won a game going 2-6 with 20 yards passing (he did add 17 on the ground) in a 23-0 win over SD. Also note that Bradshaw came into that game leading the Steelers to 17 4th quarter points (not bad for 70s football). That game is part of Kruczek's 6-0 starting record. Bradshaw doesn't get credit for that win which clearly is more his than Kruczek's (if we are going to bother crediting QBs with wins and losses).
So can we stop the nonsense that the backups were as good as Bradshaw. Quoting backup records is a dishonest/ignorant misuse of the stats. Bradshaw isn't a Top 15 all-time QB, but he wasn't a scrub either and he was a very important part of a 4-time Super Bowl champion. Stop the madness please. I'm a Browns fan, who needs a shower after standing up for Bradshaw. Don't make me do it again. Please start disparing Otto Graham. I'll enjoy standing up for him.
Sources:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/1976.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KrucMi00/gamelog/
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197610310pit.htm >>
Nice research.
Terry Bradshaw
Career postseason record: 14-5
Career postseason statistics: 261-456, 3833 yards, 30 TD, 26 INT; 83.0 passer rating
In each of the Steelers' Super Bowl victories, he posted a passer rating above 100. He led a fourth quarter comeback in the second and fourth games, and threw a touchdown pass in the fourth quarter of each game.
As a matter of fact, Bradshaw's fourth quarter passing statistics in the Super Bowl look like this:
11-16, 292 yards, 4 TD
That is not a typo. Bradshaw averaged 18 yards per pass attempt. He threw five incompletions against four touchdown passes. His final pass in his first three Super Bowls was a touchdown pass, and in his fourth Super Bowl, it was a 45-yard completion that set up a final touchdown.
His passer rating is a jaw-dropping 151.0, and he was awarded the MVP trophy in his final two Super Bowls.
Bradshaw doesn't just shine in the Super Bowl either.
There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game. Then there were the 1976 AFC divisional playoffs, where Bradshaw posted a perfect passer rating against the Baltimore Colts.
Bradshaw threw for two or more touchdown passes in his final seven postseason games, all of which the Steelers scored 27+ points. He averaged an incredible 8.4 yards per pass attempt throughout his playoff career. >>
Chicks and garnettstyle dig the long ball
Bradshaw = average. Maybe above average. That's as far as I can go. I said the same thing every time I watched him play. We could be talking about Terry Hanratty very instead of Bradshaw very easily. Interchangeable in my opinion
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You ridicule Brady for two Super Bowl losses to the Giants. One was because of a miracle play. Yet you give Bradshaw full marks on perhaps the single most luckiest play in sports history. Never have I seen someone pick and choice their spots more then you and ignore facts that don't fit your story. You are brilliant in that regard. I'm guessing you are young and from Eastern Ohio ; ) just a guess.
Are you the poster formerly known as Soundguard or is that seebelow?
<There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game>
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Garnettstyle did you ever see Bradshaw play in real time?
You ridicule Brady for two Super Bowl losses to the Giants. One was because of a miracle play. Yet you give Bradshaw full marks on perhaps the single most luckiest play in sports history. Never have I seen someone pick and choice their spots more then you and ignore facts that don't fit your story. You are brilliant in that regard. I'm guessing you are young and from Eastern Ohio ; ) just a guess.
Are you the poster formerly known as Soundguard or is that seebelow?
<There was the "Immaculate Reception," a fourth-down, game-winning, 60-yard touchdown pass to Franco Harris on the final play of the game> >>
house(garage). My 2 uncles and my dad in the garage, having a cold one, and talking ball. Dad is a die-hard Steelers fan,
the 1 uncle that is in this story a Cowboys fan.
Well debating back and forth, each one of em building up their team, yada, yada. Then my uncle said something, "The Steelers
won despite Bradshaw, not because of him" Then it got quiet for what seemed like an eternity. Then dad came back with something
like, the steel curtain was the greatest defense to ever play (or something to that effect). I only remember that because of the
quiet. It was never quiet when them 3 were drinking
As for me, started watching around 84/85 or so. Of the QBs ive actually seen play, I can narrow it down to 3. Brady, Marino, Montana.
I probably lean Montana, but any list (during my time watching ball) that doesnt have them 3 at the top doesnt hold any merit with me.
I cant honestly speak of the all-time greats.
On a side note, if memory serves, seems like all 3 agreed that Fouts was good. Of course, looking back, this all would of happened in
the early 80's, so Fouts would of been hot at the time.
<< <i>Here's the list:
01. Tom Brady
02. Joe Montana
03. Peyton Manning
04. John Elway
05. Dan Marino
06. Brett Favre
07. Terry Bradshaw
08. Roger Staubach
09. Johnny Unitas
10. Steve Young
11. Jim Kelly
12. Fran Tarkenton
13. Troy Aikman
14. Joe Namath
15. Drew Brees
16. Bart Starr
Personally, I would take Namath off the list, and add Otto Graham.
Steve >>
Craig
and I'm a Browns fan!!!
its the same thing as the people that say Jim Brown was the best ever and refuse to even listen to reasonable debates over it.
I would listen to a reasonable debate just before I start to laugh.
<< <i>to put things into perspective, consider a QB such as Otto Graham playing within today's rules and Tom Brady playing within the rules of the 1950's NFL with no facemask. I dare say that Graham would flourish while Brady might make it through a few games before he crumpled into a heap. the best QB from the modern era equipped to play in days gone by is Rothlisberger. his stats probably would stay the same, the guy is a beast and a player for the ages,
and I'm a Browns fan!!!
its the same thing as the people that say Jim Brown was the best ever and refuse to even listen to reasonable debates over it.
I would listen to a reasonable debate just before I start to laugh. >>
I have to thank you, this was one of the funniest posts I've read in a very long time, your football knowledge is so pitifully limited its a great comic relief!!
<< <i>Brady is bigger than linebackers from the 50s. He would have no trouble playing back then. >>
Exactly. If you're going to transplant players back into different eras, you have to do with all components intact, not just those that favor your argument.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Brady is bigger than linebackers from the 50s. He would have no trouble playing back then. >>
Exactly. If you're going to transplant players back into different eras, you have to do with all components intact, not just those that favor your argument. >>
Another way to look at it is how many of those same players in the 50's could actually play in today's game. Physically, not many.
I still love the pics of Unitas smoking a cigarette on the sidelines during a game.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You can't turn the clock back and stick Brady in the 1950s and claim he is as big as a linebacker. The diets, training and general conditioning for football (and even life in general) have changed since the 1930s and 40s. Today, the average NFL Offensive and Defensive lines are likely 50-60 lbs heavier than during the days of Otto Graham. Not only has the game changed, so have the size and weight of the players.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I look at NFL players the same way. If Unitas and Brady were switched in time, they would adapt to that era and probably be successful to some extent. The same? Probably not, since each of them had nearly perfect situations, but success nonetheless. How can anyone truly know for sure? My gut instincts say that George Mikan wouldn't succeed in today's NBA, but am I sure? Could someone have worked with him and turned him into a great NBA center of today's time? Maybe. Maybe Tom Brady would have been a Hardy Brown type linebacker that devastated opponents. Who knows?
People can only be measured on how they performed against the competition they faced, the rest is speculation.
I guess you can enjoy any debate you like. I can't see the point of this one.
<< <i>Is Bradshaw really the 7th greatest QB ever?? Or was he surrounded by the greatest Hall of Fame team on both sides of the ball? >>
Bradshaw and Aikman are both highly questionable. Eli has 2 superbowl victories maybe he is better than a few of the top 16.
Sammy Baugh belongs in the top 10.
Dan Fouts definitely belongs on the list he was amazing.
Top 16? No way.
Dave
Dave
<< <i>I have always thought that trying to compare athletes from different eras futile.
People can only be measured on how they performed against the competition they faced, the rest is speculation.
I guess you can enjoy any debate you like. I can't see the point of this one. >>
Ding!
It's great for sports bar discussions or pounding on a keyboard misstating an opinion is actually a fact.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have always thought that trying to compare athletes from different eras futile.
People can only be measured on how they performed against the competition they faced, the rest is speculation.
I guess you can enjoy any debate you like. I can't see the point of this one. >>
Ding!
It's great for sports bar discussions or pounding on a keyboard misstating an opinion is actually a fact.
Thanks! I watched most of these QBs play and think Tarkenton should rate in the top 5 or at least the top 10. He played on horrible teams and when the Vikings got good they were a run first team. They didn't have a good WR until Fran was at the end of his career. The Giants were horrible when he was there.
It comes to mind that he might not even get drafted in today's game as he was small and didn't have a great arm. He was a tremendous player. Take the time to look at his career beyond the basic stats and you will see a guy that meant WINS to whatever team he played for! Too bad he wasn't a Super Bowl winner, that might change a few opinions.
I am also certain the old school stars would have been faster and stronger if they played now as they would benefit from modern nutrition and exercise programs.
Namath is another one who is getting somewhat bashed here. Few realize his knees were so bad the Dr that examined him AFTER the Jets signed him commented "I hope you have another Quarterback".
Bradshaw might have been an average QB during the regular season but he performed like a HOFer in big games. I would not give him the credit for the "immaculate reception" though, that should have been a game ending incompletion. Franco was the hero there.
Great memories. The game is too much passing now in my opinion.
<< <i>I didn't read all of this but can someone explain to me how Marino is ahead of Jim k? Same era, right? >>
You're kidding..........right?