1938 proof nickels...which one is rarer?

lasvegasteddy

so i just bought a normal without serif letters and have to wonder if it is the rarer of the 2 ?
does the new cherry pickers guide address this?
will this ever be acknowledged?

any who maybe unfamiliar here are my 2 examples...one with...one without and a close up

serif and no serif side by side....look at the "R & S"


mine without....i'm thinking this is the rarer type...........TYPE 1


mine with.....................................................................TYPE 2

ModCrewman

Based solely on your images, the 2nd one doesn't look much like a proof to me...that being said, this date is outside my realm of purported expertise.

lasvegasteddy

the 2nd one bottom is an image while in a small anacs pr64

it's something that has been discussed in the past
i'm just wondering if there's any new address of this in the cherry pickers guide or if tpg's will ever acknowledge this?

kinda neat though that there are 2 types of 1938 proof nickels

"i think"
it was early in the run of this scant mintage
they decided to re-engrave the working dies by hand to have serif's on the obverse letters

koynekwest

The missing serifs were likely produced by polishing of the die. Very common on all series of proof coins.

koynekwest

The missing serifs were likely produced by polishing of the die. Very common on all series of proof coins.

leothelyon

You can read up in this thread and there's a Coneca link that will show some great closeups of the varieties. In my opinion, if these marks were added and proof dies were eventually used to make business strikes, where did all those added markings go?


Leo

lasvegasteddy

interesting article there leo
many thanks

from article....
"As of this writing no truly “normal”
1938 Proof nickel has been identified,
though it certainly may exist.
However, with a mintage of only
19,365 1938 nickel Proofs, one must
wonder how many more dies there
could be? „"

so my guess of the top coin (newly purchased) is a rarer type then as it has a normal "S" without a serif would be correct

davewesen

I few years ago I was curious and did a mostly 'picture on internet study' along with some of my own coins. The different types of reverses was the intial interest.

1938 proof nickels are a first year issue. It is the most prevalent proof produced in 1938. 3x as many nickels than cents and over 2x as many dimes, quarters and halves.

The reverse types are the famous change with business srikes all changing from reverse of 38 to reverse of 40 during 1939. I also felt the major DDR was a 1938 reverse overstruck with a 1940 reverse.

The proof reverses changed during 2 years - 1939 and 1940.

The obverse was a different story. I started with the proofs. I will call them type 1 and type 2. The small star no lower S Serif I will call type1 and then the type 2 will be the one with larger star and the lower serif in S of TRUST (actually the entire S is re-engraved if you look close) . I tried finding pictures of Schlags 150 signed, numbered proof nickels, to see if both types occurred - and I found both. For all the 1938's I saw pictures of, it was close to 50/50 . I saw both types during 1939 and 1940. I decided there must have been 2 master dies used during these years, not just one that was re-engraved during the year.

I then looked at the business strikes. The 1938's were mostly type 1, the 1939 and 1940's were mixed and the 1941's and later were mostly type 2 although not as pronounced. In the early 40's I felt I did see some business strikes that were the type 1 weak lower serif, although they all started looking halfway between the original 2.


I will throw it back to you lasvegasteddy, maybe you could get a group of people to look at their stuff and come up with a few thousand samples to find prevalence, of each for the first few years of the Jefferson series. I can't remember if or what Bernard A Nagengast said about these in The Jefferson Nickel Analyst.

19Lyds

<< <i>The missing serifs were likely produced by polishing of the die. Very common on all series of proof coins. >>

No, these were definitely re-engraved as the serifs were physically added at some point in time which is evident by examining close ups of the coins. The lettering was also addressed by "re-engraving". This re-engraving occurs on the Obverse as well as the Reverse of the coins and at one time was thought to be rare compared to the non-engraved coins. It was thought to be a "new discovery", which it was but then, they were more common than folks believed.

Experts began looking at the proofs that were available and determined that neither version is more rare as both are readily available in the open market.

lasvegasteddy

sweet post there dave....i love it
but
" maybe you could get a group of people to look at their stuff and come up with a few thousand samples to find prevalence "<<<<..not gunna happen

i will have to look at his hair-tie better though thank's to leo with that article
as it looks different too

regardless though....it will be a lil subset of my core collection
1938 proof nickel different type obverses

"AMAZING POST THERE 19LYDS "...i love that
huge thanks

koynekwest

Maybe they were re-engraved after they were polished away.

OldEastside

Had to look at mine and it doesn't have the lower serif in "S" of TRUST and is the same die as you refur to as Type 1

Steve

ricko

Great thread and super post 19Lyds...very clear.... Cheers, RickO

lasvegasteddy

<< <i>Had to look at mine and it doesn't have the lower serif in "S" of TRUST and is the same die as you refur to as Type 1

Steve >>


correct steve
as every reference made to these...the serif's were added....making them a type 2 but categorized as normal or R.E.D.'s

leo and several others had made reference some 7 years ago that "approximately" the serif'd out numbered the non-serif'd by 2 to 1

i find it a lil odd something as such is discernible by the naked eye is like a dead horse....almost zero interest
no + in front of the coin number

oh well
i didn't think much of it when i snagged that bottom one at $44 holdered...then that top one became available for $52 and it stuck out
so for less then a C-note i have a lil subset there of this debut issue struck in proof with both types

Baley

Neat post, I learned something today, had no idea about these, great pictures too

BigDowgie

Yes, the Re-Engraved Dies is pretty cool, but even for the avid Jefferson Collector, not a huge deal. While I own a couple samples of each, I di not see any price differences, as both are seen fairly equally in my opinion. You can find an article on this RED 1938 Proof in the Jan/Feb 2009 Errorscope publication.

You can even trace the reverse engravings on E PLURIBUS to 1939 and 1940 proofs. Are these from the same Master Reverse Die used in later years?

crazyhounddog

Do you collect proof Jefferson nickel's, Ted?

lasvegasteddy

<< <i>Do you collect proof Jefferson nickel's, Ted? >>


ever get drunk and wake up to see a new girl in bed with ya and you have to ask what her name is?
stuff just happens there crazyhounddog

so yeah...i guess i collect proof jefferies
while all these rich cats are oooohing and awwwing while looking for those old expensive buffalo nickels

things like this pop up



thought i'd stray and bought this $20. unc
pcgs disagreed and shifted me back in proof mode


to me some of the best value today is found in colorful jefferies and unc's pcgs disagrees upon
coin collecting for the poor
someone's gotta do it

BigDowgie

Jeffersons for the most part are nice, affordable, fun collectibles!! And yes, somebody's gotta do it!

crazyhounddog

<< <i>

<< <i>Do you collect proof Jefferson nickel's, Ted? >>


ever get drunk and wake up to see a new girl in bed with ya and you have to ask what her name is?
stuff just happens there crazyhounddog

so yeah...i guess i collect proof jefferies
while all these rich cats are oooohing and awwwing while looking for those old expensive buffalo nickels

things like this pop up



thought i'd stray and bought this $20. unc
pcgs disagreed and shifted me back in proof mode


I kinda had a feeling you did. Ya never said so, I just kinda figured ya did. I happen to like them quite a bit and I have also started a collection of them, colorful ones that is. If I can find them for a decent price.

to me some of the best value today is found in colorful jefferies and unc's pcgs disagrees upon
coin collecting for the poor
someone's gotta do it >>

SkyMan

I like your Jeffies!

Type2

Nice

messydesk

Interesting pics of the re-engraved detail. Thanks for posting.

davewesen

Dentuck's post on the new CPG shows 3 1938 re-engraved varieties - not sure if they are proof or business strike, we will find out when book in our hands

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=947650

CaptHenway

<< <i>Dentuck's post on the new CPG shows 3 1938 re-engraved varieties - not sure if they are proof or business strike, we will find out when book in our hands

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=947650 >>



Those are all Proof dies.
TD

keyman64

Interesting thread. I missed the post the first go around.

fcloud

bump

georgiacop50

In my informal survey, I found the FS-404 to be the toughest of the RED's.



Edit: Doh! I see this thread is specifically about the 1938 proofs. I was referring to the 1952's