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WINGS
Boosibri
Posts: 11,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
What is the general opinion if WINGS? It seems to have limited acceptance and is slow to gain traction with dealers and collectors. Just curious, any opinions?
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Boosibri
Posts: 11,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Personally, I do not own any WINGS approved or unapproved coins and currently do not have plans to submit coins seeking their approval. I will not dismiss their service as grading world coins is not without some controversy. If it helps collectors that is fine as long as a mentality does not evolve into an obsession with stickers.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
When I buy, I try to grade the coin as if raw (I am actually fine buying raw for the stuff I think I know), then grade (either US TPG or British or European) according to what I think and then value it accordingly after adding in other factors not covered by a simple numerical value.
When I sell, I have yet to find someone who cares about WINGS. So, I do not care.
To me, this is different than the Eagle Eye and CAC stickers on the US side. Rick Snow is a well-known and widely regarded expert on his series. I'm fine admitting that he has forgotten far more about his series than I will ever learn. Same for John Albanese -- I am not embarrassed to say that the amount of knowledge I know about US coins is a trivial portion compared to what he knows. And, he backs up his sticker with a published buy price.
I don't believe WINGS has such financial backing (like CAC) nor reputational backing like EagleEye nor CAC.
Also, the world market is much more vast than the US market. How can the folks behind WINGS know so much? And, if a coin is not stickered by WINGS, how can it be considered a "lesser" coin?
It's just so much safer to learn to properly assess the coin itself as opposed to how it fits into some stranger's way of thinking.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
One has the WINGS sticker, one does not.
Which do you buy?
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Two coins, all else equal. Everything. Grade, price, strike, tone, everything.
One has the WINGS sticker, one does not.
Which do you buy? >>
That's not a credible scenario. I've never seen two coins, modern proofs aside, that are 100% exactly the same. Since I don't care about PF70 or SP70 (or 69 or 68) coins, I'd probably buy neither.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
umm because maybe most normal dealers and collectors don't need this service.
I laugh when I read certain percentage of lots with that sticker sold at higher then....like these obviously great EA pieces would really have sat dormant without it.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
<< <i>
It's just so much safer to learn to properly assess the coin itself as opposed to how it fits into some stranger's way of thinking.
EVP >>
Exactly the same reason why I put zero stock in any sticker, EagleEye and CAC included.
I don't understand why it matters who the backer is -- it's still just one man's opinion of what meets their arbitrary standard.
I collect coins I like, not coins that Rick Snow, John Albanese, or in this case Lance Tschor (of WINGS) find pleasing.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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I just was made aware of this thread and if I had seen it earlier I would have responded at that time. So excuse me if this is being done after the fact. I am well positioned to address this thread as I am the president of WINGS, along with Lance Tchor.
Why did grading services succeed? Simply because of mistrust of dealers by the collecting public. Dealers hated the idea that someone would look over their shoulders and question their integrity. The dealers who were honest, had integrity and had great insight embraced the concept. It helped confirm to their clients that the clients have been treated fairly. Well, after a slow start the acceptance of grading has taken root in America. Easily over 62 MILLION coins have been graded by the “Big 2" grading services. More than 2 million a year!
How many articles have you read where dealers or collectors couldn’t understand how an AU58 in one year became an MS 62 or better years later. How many stories have you heard of games that the grading services play or favoritism that is shown to certain dealers? This led to mistrust by collectors and hence was born the CAC concept. Now not only did dealers hate the idea but now the grading companies joined suit because, they, just like the dealers before them, did not appreciate having a third party looking over their shoulders. Why do you suppose that generally CAC coins sell for a premium over the same graded coins without the CAC sticker?
Some of you have written that you don’t need either a grading company or a stickering company to be able to judge a coin. God bless you. When it comes time to sell your coin would you rather sell it raw or sell one that was certified with a CAC sticker? If you are honest with yourself the answer is obvious and the increase in value over the cost to grade and sticker is well supported by documentary evidence to that effect. Do you think that your buying market is, as a general rule, as qualified as you to make an informed decision as to the grade of a coin? I know that most of you know that answer as well.
So for the very, very few of you able to properly grade a coin, and are truly in it solely for collecting the raw coin I think that’s great. But the overwhelming number of collectors are really collectors/investors and they care about both facets.
So change came. You may not have liked it at the time but you eventually embraced it. How many dealers sell only non-CAC coins and refuse to place CAC coins in their cases? I would venture to say not too many. CAC is where it is at for U.S. coins. They do not review world coins. In fact only WINGS does. We have been in business for several years now so we are no fly by night company.
Those of you who were fortunate enough to listen to Steve Ivy and Jim Halperin of Heritage Auctions being interviewed at the Legacy dinner in Dallas earlier this month surely walked away impressed. One question asked of them was what did they see for future growth in the coin industry. Steve answered that without a doubt it was world coins. He pointed to the number of locations that PCGS and NGC have opened overseas over the last several years. He said that the world market is really in its infancy stages with regards to grading just as the US market was 30 years ago. Why would you suppose that David Hall of PCGS and Mark Salzberg of NGC decided to spend millions overseas and are continuing their expansion? Is it because they too agree with Steve and Jim that the future is overseas?
Thank you for all the positive remarks that were written. For those of you who just feel better about themselves by trashing or bad mouthing others, isn’t your time best spent elsewhere? This is nothing more than an extension of negativity. Any psychologist will tell you that negativity is bad for your health and that with a positive attitude you will be healthier. I guess the old saying of, “if you don’t have something nice to say then don’t say it” comes to mind. My only question to you would be, “have you taken the time at coin shows to actually pick up any of the WINGS stickered coins”? Then you can form your own opinion of the quality of what we do. I get it. You still may not wish to use us, but you won’t be able to say that we put out an inferior product.
I want to distinguish between negativity and constructive criticism. We love constructive criticism. Our focus is to continue to get better and be responsive to your needs. Fortunately some of your criticisms deserve a response. It allows us to review areas within our company and make changes that we feel are warranted.
One comment spoke about the cost to have a coin reviewed by us. Our cost is $12.50 for coins valued under $10k and $25 for values above that. This is similar to CAC. Obviously there is postage, insurance and handling (just like any grading or stickering service). At coin shows, if you submit your coins directly to us early enough they will be returned at the show for NO EXTRA COST! Moreover, this will save you money for postage and insurance.
brg5658 asked whether the spending of around $300 for 18 coins (about $16.67/coin) was worth it. Generally a WINGS stickered coin is worth the cost! Let me say unequivocally that WINGS coins have brought an average of 13% more than non-WINGS coins in auctions. How do we judge that. Easy, for every auction we compare the final sales prices to the low estimates both for WINGS and non-WINGS stickered coins. We then compare the two results. This is based on +/- 10,000 lots over the last 3 years. WINGS ALWAYS has sold for more.
Next, neildrobertson wrote that our site doesn’t adequately explain our standards. Thank you. Our standards are not limited to the basic industry-wide accepted criteria; i.e., strike, luster, marks, and eye appeal. With our 400+ years of experience with our consulting staff and employees we deal with thousands of mints over hundreds of years in which the quality of the minting process is also a major factor that must be considered. We will update our site to make this clearer for everybody. I believe that I will add it to our FAQ #8. Thanks again.
The World coin market is only going to continue to grow and with it you will see more graded world coins and stickers. That’s just the way it is going to be. The extra “comfort” factor of having a third set of eyes look at your coins or the added value that your coin may enjoy with a WINGS sticker is but two reasons to consider trying us out. Again, I recognize that it is not for everyone, only the other 99% who buy the holder and not the coin.
Finally, if any of you that wish to speak to me off forum please send me an email at Larry@Wingscoins.com. I would love to hear from you and I will be receptive to anything that you have to say.
Thank you.
Larry Michelson, President
WINGS COINS
This is a fallacy of logic. In order to make the claim you are making, you have to know what each coin with the WINGS sticker would have sold for without the sticker. To claim that it was the WINGS sticker that caused the difference in sale price and not simply an obvious difference in the quality of the coin is a farce.
I have never understood the argument that "STICKERED coin X" sells for more than "UNSTICKERED coin X" as a justification for the need of a stickering company. I don't need a sticker for me to know a higher end coin. The value difference in sales cannot be logically attributed to the sticker, but to the coin itself. No diatribe of circular logic will change that fact.
Now, if your target market is Helen Keller or Stevie Wonder (or investors who don't care about numismatics but just holders, labels, and stickers) -- then I guess I see the value.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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But, for those who tend to making purchasing decisions based solely on an Internet image and description, then an trustworthy impartial assessment is important because that image alone is not impartial. In that event, a respected label or sticker can be used as an aid in deciding how to price and if to buy.
One common objection folks have to labels and stickers (this not aimed solely at WINGS) is that they become a crutch instead of an aid.
IMO, it is that that we should warn about, and not about labels and stickers onto themselves.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
This is a fallacy of logic. In order to make the claim you are making, you have to know what each coin with the WINGS sticker would have sold for without the sticker. To claim that it was the WINGS sticker that caused the difference in sale price and not simply an obvious difference in the quality of the coin is a farce.
I have never understood the argument that "STICKERED coin X" sells for more than "UNSTICKERED coin X" as a justification for the need of a stickering company. I don't need a sticker for me to know a higher end coin. The value difference in sales cannot be logically attributed to the sticker, but to the coin itself. No diatribe of circular logic will change that fact.
Now, if your target market is Helen Keller or Stevie Wonder (or investors who don't care about numismatics but just holders, labels, and stickers) -- then I guess I see the value.
Classic Graeco-Latin square design. 2 binary factors:
1. Sent to wings (S2W) - Y/N
2. Sticker quality (STK) - Y/N
4 groups: S2W+STK, S2W+NotSTK, NotS2W+STK, NotS2W+NotSTK
Comparing group 1 to group 2 would show the value of having a "solid for the grade" coin.
Comparing group 1 to group 3 would show the value of having a Wings sticker for the same quality coins.
Comparing the combined groups 1&2 to 3&4 would show the value of sending the coin to Wings for evaluation.
Data collection for groups 1 and 2 is probably already happening at Wings, since they're dealing with graded coins.
Data collection for groups 3 and 4 would mean Wings graders attending auction previews and taking grading notes on non-graded coins. This would need to happen for as long as it takes to build-up enough sample for each Country / Year / Denomination / Variety / Grade combination (years, most likely)
Since we're talking about graded coins with numeric grades assigned, I would look at average sale prices in a particular time period for that Country / Year / Denomination / Variety / Grade and not compare to a biased auction house estimate (which are biased based on the auction house and person doing the estimation).
Anyway, good on Wings folks on finding their niche. TPG's in Europe / Asia will introduce more investors to the coin market, which, in turn, will introduce premium on slabbed (and eventually stickered) coins. If that happens, collectors will slab / sticker their investment-grade coins prior to selling, as much as they dislike the idea. Which will mean more coins being submitted to Wings in the future and higher profits.
Personally, I'm on the fence about Wings.
And now back to my semi-yeti mode
8 Reales Madness Collection
Sweet, I've been collecting coins for 16+ years, and my dad around 9 to 10 years. I can just employ my dad, then open a coin business claiming 25 to 26 years of experience.
There are people who buy the holder and not the coin, but 99% is exaggerating. Perhaps a novice, but only a fool would buy an expensive coin without some knowledge and grading skill.
Latin American Collection
brg ..I totally agree with you 100% - fallacy indeed!
...and he states
I recognize that it is not for everyone, only the other 99% who buy the holder and not the coin.
that statement itself cans the whole post as rubbish imho...sorry no insult to you Lance although you seem to have disparaged ANYONE that has/had any negativity to your train of thinking here.
So by that logic if someone buys the coin and not the holder then why do they need Wings? Does Wings make an active market in stickers coins?
Latin American Collection
I am reluctant to make or accept the argument that a sticker or label is the factor that leads to a higher selling price (provided that both coins are the same grade) over the general eye appeal of the coin. Not all coins at the same grade are created equal and nor do they share the same value.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
At the moment I have a coin on it's way to me...in an MS-64+ PCGS slab dressed up with a WINGS sticker. Whatevs. I like it and I have other plans for it, and it will be cracked out after arrival. Who knows, maybe someday it will be in a slab again and will be sent into Wings again. If so, the TPG and now FPG companies can make a buck. We'll see.
In an effort to seek answers and answer my own questions, it does look as if WINGS does ANACS and ICG- still looking for PCI
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
But Lance Tchor has a terrific eye for grading coins.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
1) Many more world coins making it into slabs
2) TPGs being inconsistent or non descriptive in their grade of eye appeal - there is a MS coin and there is an ms coin.... not all are appealing
3) Investor driven market (as much of the US) - the do not need a numismatic eye but rather a more liquid asset to buy and sell.
At the last ANA I sat next to a US coin dealer. Honestly, he was selling widgets - an 1885 Morgan MS-65 CAC price is X, MS-64 is Y. Commoditized and dull. CAC is another factor in pricing.
If you are a 1) Collector first and foremost with a 2) Trained eye and 3) Appetite for eye appeal 4) you will not be dependent on WINGS. Many people that lack the 4 criteria or work towards them, will have use for WINGS as a sense of 3rd party validation.
At the ANA I saw quite a few WINGS stickered world coins. I will admit they all looked very eye appealing to me for the grade/type. I personally did not need the sticker to determine that yet perhaps for some this adds the needed validation.
To each their own. As someone that also likes observing various markets and their evolution, grading and its derivatives have added much to the hobby and have made coins more liquid. Grading is helpful when its time to sell, as well as buy, especially when doing so off an image, without seeing coins in hand.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
1. You decide to go someplace nice to eat.
2. You call me, I go with you (you pay me $50 for going).
3. You order me the same thing you are having (you pay).
4. We both eat.
5. After dinner I give you a sticker if I think you liked your food.
Most people are not food experts, but I can help with that. And for an extra $15 I will review your meal on Trip Adviser.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
Grading is helpful when its time to sell, as well as buy, especially when doing so off an image, without seeing coins in hand.
Agreed. Labels and stickers should be an aid.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
1. I decide to go on vacation, to a 5-star restaurant, or a cruise.
2. I've never been to this location, restaurant, or cruise line before.
3. I've seen pictures of these places and they look nice. But they're very expensive.
so...
4. I buy a guidebook for a few bucks which gives me an educated opinion about them first.
Or is that just a dumb idea?
--Severian the Lame
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
It's not an entirely terrible idea to get a second opinion on a coin you're getting ready to spend $3000 or even $300 on. And if that professional opinion is objective and impartial to you the buyer or them the seller, so much the better.
If you know your series very well and if you're working with dealers you know and trust, then at worst it's not necessary. But it also costs very little. It's cheap insurance.
If you're working on your own, assembling an esoteric collection from digital images around the world, getting that objective second opinion is actually a pretty good idea.
--Severian the Lame
The sentiment is probably mostly negative here re WINGS as most are very advanced collectors able to determine unique eye appeal on their own.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
I would dare to say the MarcMoish eye takes the WINGS eye.
aww missed this Z -
..in fact I am still confused why others here missed some of the harsher comments posted here ..even the 99% comment should have riled up others instead looks like we are trying to bend backwards to justify this extra sticker...or drinking the kool-aid....like I said elswhere soon we will have someone doing certified slab sleeves - its no end, and makes this hobby ridiculous.... can you see a rare auto certified with a sticker, a painting, stamps, rare jewelry ...its no end...the whole idea stinks and is a waste of money.
Then the part of "adding value" is so off target I want to puke.
however:
The sentiment is probably mostly negative here re WINGS as most are very advanced collectors able to determine unique eye appeal on their own.
maybe I can agree on that..somewhat.
..in fact I am still confused why others here missed some of the harsher comments posted here ..even the 99% comment should have riled up others instead looks like we are trying to bend backwards to justify this extra sticker...or drinking the kool-aid....like I said elswhere soon we will have someone doing certified slab sleeves - its no end, and makes this hobby ridiculous.... can you see a rare auto certified with a sticker, a painting, stamps, rare jewelry ...its no end...the whole idea stinks and is a waste of money.
I don't see what the big deal is. The guy's a principal of the company and came here to defend against some of the vitriolic comments. He was probably dually a salesperson and a bit outraged. He's just being human. I honestly know nothing material about him, and couldn't pick him out of a crowd of anonymous middle aged (or older) adult white men.
As for the matter of stickers (and labels) independent of the marketing spiel from any single company, I think that is a more relevant discussion.
While I only know a tiny handful of forum members here, I have a good faith belief that a goodly number of us are fairly advanced collectors. I'm not talking about value of collection, but about knowledge of the series in which they have interest, and the ability to tell a "good" coin from "bad".
If these stickers, and perhaps labels too, mean less to the more advanced members amongst us, then so be it. But we also have less advanced members, and neophytes, and those who primarily operate on the Internet. Education can be harsh and expensive -- I can remember my many mistakes (even recent ones!).
I don't think it is a bad idea for those who need it to have access to reputable sources of professional guidance. That can be in the form of a trusted dealer to view lots or a reputable TPG adding a label with a grade, or a sticker or a dealer item tag that has "FDC" or "Choice EF" or whatever on it (yes, I know some European dealers who feel a picture and a price is sufficient -- meaning that a coin's grade is its price, and with the picture and a short description).
Also, and I may be meandering a bit -- if so, I apologize, I think we should not think of the world market the same as the US market. Yes, it is similar, but the differences are important.
The world coin market has a huge supply of raw material to go along with the huge variety. One common criticism leveled against the TPG's is how they can have enough expertise to span such a big greenfield environment? I see too often two coins of the same type and grade are of dramatically different quality and thus value. And, here, I don't mean gorgeous toning versus charcoal black patina... A good example I saw recently are four NGC/PCGS MS63 Netherlands Lion Daalders. Two are superlative and now reside in strong collections. The other two are widgets with modest eye appeal and some actual physical issue (e.g., strike, planchet, etc.). The value difference is 4x to 5x. A neophyte who's wandering about alone, without guidance from an advanced buddy, would have thought that a "widget" MS63 Lion Daalder was good value when in fact it is probably just barely acceptable value or that the two great MS63 pieces were outrageously overpriced.
In the case of the four MS63 Lion Daalders, the labels were a disservice. Two added bogus positive value, and two added negative value. A WINGS service couldn't have done any worse than the TPG.
I don't have any problem admitting that there are industry players who are far more knowledgeable than I. John Albanese of US market CAC fame is certainly one of them. The folks at WINGS probably too, though I actually don't know them at all. But I don't formally use CAC (except when Legend sends my US stuff there when I am about to sell). As for the world coin market, I have more traditional professional help: trusted dealers with whom I have a good relationship and we know how each other looks at a coin.
But, the point I'm hoping to make is that there are hobbyists who are less advanced that many of us here. Unless we get them reputable help, we may lose that generation of collectors.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I do wish WINGS would offer an "undergraded" sticker similar to the CAC gold bean. Instead they offer two stickers, "solid" silver and "premium" gold.... yet their gold just means premium within the stated label grade.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree. If they want to sticker coins, who I am to say anything negative about it. To each his own. I don't see why there is so much negativity in this thread against this company. If you don't want to use their services, then don't.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
I also wish to respond specifically to the commentator who made some comments.
Brg. You obviously either missed the point, didn’t understand it or more than likely, are unwilling to accept it. The extreme vast majority of people do not have your supposed skill set in judging coins. I get it. It’s not for the superstars such as yourself. It is for the non-superstars such as the other 99.9% To them a holder with a 64 is a 64. Is that how you see it? Or can there possibly, just possibly, have a coin graded 64 that just made it a coin graded 64 that just missed being a 65. Are they worth the same amount? is in fact worth different amounts?
You say that you “I have never understood the argument that "STICKERED coin X" sells for more than "UNSTICKERED coin X" as a justification for the need of a stickering company. I don't need a sticker for me to know a higher end coin.”
Well, I don’t think that you are being truthful. I think that you understand it. But you won’t accept it. Remember, this hobby is not limited to people solely of superstar abilities.
Your statement that, “The value difference in sales cannot be logically attributed to the sticker, but to the coin itself. No diatribe of circular logic will change that fact.” You speak from want and not from statistics. You obviously are not privy to the many daily emails from Heritage that clearly show that the identical coin with a CAC sticker sells for more than one without. If anyone here subscribes to the Rosen Numismatic Advisory newsletter he refers to an extensive study by an independent party that clearly shows that in ALL cases, CAC coins sell for more. Further if you study auction results or bid/ask on CCE for CAC coins, you will find the same evidentiary conclusions. People would pay
As you so aptly point out, if our target audience was Helen Keller or Stevie Wonder (or investors who don't care about numismatics but just holders, labels, and stickers). Really? Care? I think that anyone who spends their money cares. Perhaps some people may care but not possess your skill set. I don’t think that you were an expert when you started. Does that mean that you didn’t care. Of course not.
EvillageProwler- Thank you for trying to restore some civility. And yes, I am defending my company. But as I’ve stated on more than one occasion we are always seeking ways to improve our services and we seriously consider all comments.
TwoKopeiki Wow. We will take that into consideration and thanks for a well thought out commentary.
I have no problem with anyone being on the fence about anything. I would only ask that you do take a look at our coins and if you are one of the very few fortunate people able to distinguish qualities within a grade, such as brg, I would ask you to see if the coin deserved the designation that we thought it deserved.
Boosibri Thanks. Hopefully you will see the market differential and try us out. By the way, in your experience does a CAC sticker makes a difference in market price?
marcmoish. I would like to hear from dealers who attend shows regularly who really know how to grade a coin to opine as to what percentage of customers are really capable of making the distinctions within a grade. If it is only 80% then I apologize. The 99.9% was used to demonstrate a point and not as a result of a study.
You also state that we have disparaged ANYONE who has any negativity. I couldn’t agree with you more when it comes to those who made personal attacks or fun or our company. And I will continue to do so. I disagree with you when it comes to well thought out comments. I may not like what I read and I may offer my take, but I do not disparage anyone who shows respect. It’s possible to have an opinion without belittling.
coinkat. We do review ANACS, ICG and ICCS(a Canadian grading company) graded coins. We do not review PCI.
bidask. I would agree in the United States. Not so much for our customers who live elsewhere.
Zohar Thank you. I agree that is the challenge for us but we are becoming much more accepted. Also I appreciate you saying:
“At the ANA I saw quite a few WINGS stickered world coins. I will admit they all looked very eye appealing to me for the grade/type. I personally did not need the sticker to determine that yet perhaps for some this adds the needed validation.”
Weiss Thank you. I hope that people re-read what you wrote.
ajaan Same comment. Some people find that it makes them feel better about themselves.
Hydrant You go girl.
I tried addressing most of the comments. I am sorry if I missed some. Please let me know and I will do so.
Thanks for your time
Take care.
Larry Michelson
If at some point WINGS adds value to my collection that's great. But today I'm getting better at collecting world coins than I was before and for a very small price.
Thanks Larry!
==========================
Mr. Michelson's words:
"The World coin market is only going to continue to grow and with it you will see more graded world coins and stickers. That’s just the way it is going to be. The extra “comfort” factor of having a third set of eyes look at your coins or the added value that your coin may enjoy with a WINGS sticker is but two reasons to consider trying us out. Again, I recognize that it is not for everyone, only the other 99% who buy the holder and not the coin."
So, you state unequivocally that a WINGS sticker will "add value" to a coin. I deny that statement, and tried to point out the fallacy in the argument. Let me try again. The coin is the coin, regardless of the plastic, label, sticker, or any other affixed opinions attached to it. I collect coins. I think where we get a bit lost / confused is in the definition of "value" vs. "cost." I agree with you that a coin with a WINGS sticker may COST more, but I do not agree that the VALUE of the coin has been increased. I think of it this way:
Cost of a coin = (coin's value) + (TPG premium) + (WINGS premium)
I realize my mindset is that of a collector, not a dealer. If my goal were to sell coins for as much as I possibly could, then those extra "bells and whistles" in the equation above become vehicles for profit via hype. But, as a collector, they are just added cost. I collect mostly TPG certified coins because much of the best material available to collectors in the USA market is already certified, and the (value:cost ratio) is close to 1. I have seen no need for WINGS stickers in the areas of world coins where I collect.
==========================
TAKE AWAY:
I do believe that many collectors can pick out the "best of the best" among a group of coins. I consistently find that in weekly Heritage auctions, the lots I am tracking and bid on are often the same lots that other collectors are tracking and bid on. Attractive/superb coins sell for premiums with or without WINGS stickers. The sticker doesn't somehow change the coin, but is given as a result of the coin's quality. I will pay more for a nice coin (which may happen to have a sticker), but I will not pay more for a nice coin because it has a sticker. I think that distinction is lost on some.
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In closing, I will just state that I respect Lance's eye and opinion on coins. I own two coins that have WINGS stickers, and both are great coins. However, I will also note that both were obtained for less than I would have paid for them raw.
I think the types of coins I collect is clear to those who see my posts on these boards. I'm not a superstar, and I'm about as small of a fish as is possible, but I'm also entitled to my impartial and objective opinion on WINGS. I get a bit uncomfortable when the Co-president of a company comes here to tell us all how much more valuable our coins will be with a WINGS sticker. Let the market decide how important WINGS stickers are. It is going on the 9th year of WINGS now and I see almost no stickers; I think that speaks volumes.
All comments above are my opinions -- take them for what they are.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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Many arguments can be made as to what will maximize the sales price of a coin but just understand what is and is not within your control. Use your resources wisely.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I want to point out one thing that you quoted that you may have mis-read. I said,
"The extra “comfort” factor of having a third set of eyes look at your coins or the added value that your coin MAY enjoy with a WINGS sticker is but two reasons to consider trying us out. Again, I recognize that it is not for everyone, only the other 99% who buy the holder and not the coin."
I capitalized the word, "MAY" so as to point it out. I did not say "Will". I will never say a coin's value "will" increase in value. There are legal reasons for this and I choose my words carefully.
In fact if you look at our ads or our website you will see that we clearly state that the market sets the price. I have been very careful and know the difference between the words. That is why I used "may".
Our belief is that if someone is buying a coin with our sticker then they are getting, in our opinion, a coin that is either premium quality for the grade (gold sticker) or solid for the grade (silver sticker). A better quality coin will typically have a greater value then the identically graded coin that does not possess either of these attributes. Not true in all cases, but that could be due to other factors.
I do appreciate your and other commentators who have commented on Lance's eye for coins and his skills.
Thanks
Sweet, I've been collecting coins for 16+ years, and my dad around 9 to 10 years. I can just employ my dad, then open a coin business claiming 25 to 26 years of experience.
There are people who buy the holder and not the coin, but 99% is exaggerating. Perhaps a novice, but only a fool would buy an expensive coin without some knowledge and grading skill.
This is precisely why a novice would want to use the services of TPGs and fourth party reviewers.
This is precisely why a novice would want to use the services of TPGs and fourth party reviewers.
The top two TPGs (PCGS and NGC) offer more than just an opinion on a coin. They offer the protection of a sonically sealed plastic container, and a guarantee of the authenticity of the coin. They also offer some level of guarantee on the state of preservation of the coin (though those guarantees have become more limited in recent years -- e.g., copper color designations are no longer guaranteed).
Services like CAC and WINGS offer opinions of an opinion. They are not grading coins, but reviewing grades that a TPG has assigned. It seems as though some people nowadays would rather have a coin in an undergraded holder with a shiny sticker than the same coin in its proper graded holder with no sticker. The logic in that kind of thinking is beyond me. Regardless of the grade on the holder label, the coin is what it is.
Maybe I'm old fashioned (? I'm 36 years old, so is that even possible ?), but I still subconsciously grade UNC coins at levels of MS60, MS63, MS65, and MS67. I think the micro-grading mindset of MS64 vs. MS65 (and moreso now the laughable MS64 vs. MS64+ system) is a farce. When none of the "experts" in the industry can agree upon a consistent grade of a coin at that level of accuracy, we are really fooling ourselves if we think there is something magical about those numbers on the labels.
[END RANT]
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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This is a fallacy of logic. In order to make the claim you are making, you have to know what each coin with the WINGS sticker would have sold for without the sticker. To claim that it was the WINGS sticker that caused the difference in sale price and not simply an obvious difference in the quality of the coin is a farce.
I have never understood the argument that "STICKERED coin X" sells for more than "UNSTICKERED coin X" as a justification for the need of a stickering company. I don't need a sticker for me to know a higher end coin. The value difference in sales cannot be logically attributed to the sticker, but to the coin itself. No diatribe of circular logic will change that fact.
Now, if your target market is Helen Keller or Stevie Wonder (or investors who don't care about numismatics but just holders, labels, and stickers) -- then I guess I see the value.
Classic Graeco-Latin square design. 2 binary factors:
1. Sent to wings (S2W) - Y/N
2. Sticker quality (STK) - Y/N
4 groups: S2W+STK, S2W+NotSTK, NotS2W+STK, NotS2W+NotSTK
Comparing group 1 to group 2 would show the value of having a "solid for the grade" coin.
Comparing group 1 to group 3 would show the value of having a Wings sticker for the same quality coins.
Comparing the combined groups 1&2 to 3&4 would show the value of sending the coin to Wings for evaluation.
Data collection for groups 1 and 2 is probably already happening at Wings, since they're dealing with graded coins.
Data collection for groups 3 and 4 would mean Wings graders attending auction previews and taking grading notes on non-graded coins. This would need to happen for as long as it takes to build-up enough sample for each Country / Year / Denomination / Variety / Grade combination (years, most likely)
Since we're talking about graded coins with numeric grades assigned, I would look at average sale prices in a particular time period for that Country / Year / Denomination / Variety / Grade and not compare to a biased auction house estimate (which are biased based on the auction house and person doing the estimation).
Anyway, good on Wings folks on finding their niche. TPG's in Europe / Asia will introduce more investors to the coin market, which, in turn, will introduce premium on slabbed (and eventually stickered) coins. If that happens, collectors will slab / sticker their investment-grade coins prior to selling, as much as they dislike the idea. Which will mean more coins being submitted to Wings in the future and higher profits.
Personally, I'm on the fence about Wings.
And now back to my semi-yeti mode
I am not sure of what a good example would be to apply such a formula, some kind of inventory operation. But I don't think it applies to something where aethestics plays a role. There is no Top Pop cut of beef or "The Eliasburg barrel of wheat".
Any such formula would also fail to factor in the fact that more A and B coins will get submitted to such sticker vendors and thus skewing the results in favor of coins that were already determined to be A and B by people submitting them. The sticker service then has the luxury of turning away the C coins, coins which would yield lower auction results anyway, therefore sending the dogs back to the pool they are "competing against". No one is arguing that they cannot differntaite between these coins, the argyment is does the hobby NEED it.
You would get the same mathematical right to make the claim with even 1 single A coin fetching more at auction. You and I would have similar metrics if we were the ones handing out stickers to the coins that are nice. You are literally cherrypicking your auction results. Imagine that instead of providing this as a service, you were doing it yourself as a test at an acution, could you cherrypick even just a few coins that you think would skew the coins in your favor? Of course you could.