David Hall Toned Morgan Collection
BWCoin
Posts: 92
I was looking through some of the David Hall Morgan Set Prices Realized and while some did well others sold for discounted prices even with CAC stickers on them. So what happened? A few thoughts as to why.
1. Coins Were Sold with No Reserve – So as always some will fall through the cracks
2. The Pedigree was not listed on the holder i.e. Davis Hall's name on the holder would have helped a great deal
3. Not a big marketing push in online banner ads specific to this collection. The marketing I saw was more around the auction house name rather than the collection
4. "Boutique" Auction without a well-known niche = Maybe/Maybe Not - when you think of Goldberg's you think of Copper
5. Focus on Marketing the "Legend" name rather than the current sale - See Pic Below. I see no mention of the David Hall Collection only the name”
6. Toned Coins are really a person personal preference some like dark toned coins while some like lighter ones while some like deep bold colors and some collect only blast white coins so it segments the market
7. CAC (in terms of market segmentation within a collection - let me explain) - CAC highlights the high end for the grade. TRUE. Which sell for high end prices. Mostly TRUE. To more knowledgeable collectors. Generally TRUE. When a collection is sent to CAC it also highlights those that are NOT high end for the grade. TRUE. Which sell for lower end prices. Mostly TRUE. To less knowledgeable or bargain minded collectors. Generally TRUE.
8. CAC (In terms of highlighting the low end coins) Rick Snow says this best:
The big problem we discovered [with the] Photo Seal was that we could not sell the coins that were not photo sealed to our customers - even at a discount…..listing a coin as "Overgraded, but cheap" - who wants a coin like that….even at a sharp discount.
9. Poor Auction Sell thru Rates - AKA Coins Did Not Meet Reserve - 40 Coins Did Not Sell Out of 325 or 12.3%
These are not meant to bash an auction house or a collection they are just my personal observations about the sale and can be things that are meant to be constructive criticism that can help the auction house by changing in the future.
What do you think?
1. Coins Were Sold with No Reserve – So as always some will fall through the cracks
2. The Pedigree was not listed on the holder i.e. Davis Hall's name on the holder would have helped a great deal
3. Not a big marketing push in online banner ads specific to this collection. The marketing I saw was more around the auction house name rather than the collection
4. "Boutique" Auction without a well-known niche = Maybe/Maybe Not - when you think of Goldberg's you think of Copper
5. Focus on Marketing the "Legend" name rather than the current sale - See Pic Below. I see no mention of the David Hall Collection only the name”
6. Toned Coins are really a person personal preference some like dark toned coins while some like lighter ones while some like deep bold colors and some collect only blast white coins so it segments the market
7. CAC (in terms of market segmentation within a collection - let me explain) - CAC highlights the high end for the grade. TRUE. Which sell for high end prices. Mostly TRUE. To more knowledgeable collectors. Generally TRUE. When a collection is sent to CAC it also highlights those that are NOT high end for the grade. TRUE. Which sell for lower end prices. Mostly TRUE. To less knowledgeable or bargain minded collectors. Generally TRUE.
8. CAC (In terms of highlighting the low end coins) Rick Snow says this best:
The big problem we discovered [with the] Photo Seal was that we could not sell the coins that were not photo sealed to our customers - even at a discount…..listing a coin as "Overgraded, but cheap" - who wants a coin like that….even at a sharp discount.
9. Poor Auction Sell thru Rates - AKA Coins Did Not Meet Reserve - 40 Coins Did Not Sell Out of 325 or 12.3%
These are not meant to bash an auction house or a collection they are just my personal observations about the sale and can be things that are meant to be constructive criticism that can help the auction house by changing in the future.
What do you think?
0
Comments
Great post
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Isn't this the second thread that you have started questioning the sell through rate at Legend Auctions? IIRC, the last time people laughed at your assertions as it was actually quite good. 87+% this time, low 90s last time - average 90%. After all, there aren't thousands of lots of 'stuff' driving that number up...
<< <i>These are not meant to bash an auction house or a collection they are just my personal observations about the sale and can be things that are meant to be constructive criticism that can help the auction house by changing in the future.
What do you think? >>
What do I think?
I think you are transparent and have an ax to grind. Knock yourself out.
Legend Auctions actually has a paid advertisement on this very site showing all of the auction results from this sale. They are also transparent but in a good way.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I would have liked to see a balanced review. It was well written but it was all slanted negatively. Can you also write a positive detailing the highlights?
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Lot 183 was interesting, a colorful 1884-o graded PCGS-66 out of the Simpson/Sunnywood collection. It has a prominent gash in front of the face, so it's hard to understand how it deserved the 66 grade. Regardless, But, it brought around $4000 in the Simpson sale and out of the Hall collection as well.
As an aside, and I may get blasted for pointing this out, but I have 4 gem toned dollars in the current Heritage Sale and I would be surprised if they brought comparable prices for comparable pieces in the Legend sale of the Hall coins.
To much of answering your own statements with "TRUE". I figured it was mind control and I quit reading.
<< <i>I thought Legend did a very nice job on this sale. The auction catalogue was superb, as usual. It's true that Legend did not overhype the Hall collection of toned Morgan dollars, but then again, this collection was somewhat less than I would have expected from Mr. Hall. There were a few stars, such as lots 153 and 175 which brought more than $10,000 apiece, and certainly several other very nice pieces, including lot 154 which was the one coin I bid on and acquired. But the sale also included many nice but not sensational pieces, including one I had sold off from my collection last year (lot 164), along with other partially toned, reverse toned, and quirky toned pieces.
Lot 183 was interesting, a colorful 1884-o graded PCGS-66 out of the Simpson/Sunnywood collection. It has a prominent gash in front of the face, so it's hard to understand how it deserved the 66 grade. Regardless, But, it brought around $4000 in the Simpson sale and out of the Hall collection as well.
As an aside, and I may get blasted for pointing this out, but I have 4 gem toned dollars in the current Heritage Sale and I would be surprised if they brought comparable prices for comparable pieces in the Legend sale of the Hall coins. >>
Refreshing. Thank you.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I wonder if there's any truth to the story that some of these were part of the pick of the pick of the 200,000 or so original-bagged silver dollars in the Continental Bank Hoard bought by Ed Milas. Some of these were, if it is to be believed, were priced at $25-$50 at the time. Second string (yet still quite vivid) toners from this huge group were going for $50-100 in auction. I remember a catalogue with pages of them grouped from singles through multiple large-lots of 5 pieces each. Check silver prices and CDN for relevant comparative pricing.
edited to add: calculations of sell-through rates would be more accurate, under this transparent reserve process, if calculated as the total value of unsold reserved lots as a percentage of the overall results.
Maybe the 12.3% of total lots were 6.15% of the total value, or maybe 24.6%. Either way, total value, rather than number of lots, is more meaningful.
Semi-relatedly, if you figured the HRH coins individually and then totaled them as a group, and then you considered them as your own consignment, how did they do relative to your estimate? If they'd brought double, how much over-all would total prices realized have been affected.
Now take off your own thinking caps and maybe get more into the head of the collector who offers a grouping like this. As in "Is there much more fun in cons than sharing what you effin' love? What's cooler than people going nuts because they are enjoying themselves so much?"
Wow two peaple really wanted that 82-S Rattler in 65. Weak prices? I think not!
This is a good statement. I saw this on Legend auctions too. Legend is a big fan of CAC. When lots without beans, bidders will be hestitate (more than they are seeing coins without beans in other auction). Last thread to talk about lot 290 (1923 Peace $ PCGS MS67) that did not have a bean and cannot even get a bid even with significant discount (say 20% and over compared to CAC 1923 Peace dollar in Legend's website). What does this tell you
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I don't care about owning coins with stickers, but I think CAC does a good job. Also, when I see a coin in a big auction without one, I immediately wonder why not. For example, Lot 149 - I won this one. I love the color and the crescent pattern, but it does not deserve a sticker. It has a couple of hits (on the chin and just below, although they are not dark like in the pictures). To me it grades 64, and then got a bump for the color. I don't care, I'd be plenty happy with it in a 64 holder. Lot 234 (which I won) also has no sticker. I think it is gorgeous and to me grades 66 with only a mark on the eagle preventing a 66+. I was very pleasantly surprised at how clean the cheek was in hand. The color is really cool and unlike anything I own (and have rarely seen). I have no idea why it has no sticker. I suppose it's possible it was never tried.
Lot 172 (on which I think I was the underbidder) has really wild colors and sold for over $4K a few times in the past (including a Legend auction last July). Some others went for less than I was expecting as well. I would have loved to have seen this one (as well as all of the lots, really) in hand.
I believe the price fluctuations are because the market at the higher levels is not that deep. The presence or absence of just 1 or 2 people can make a pretty big difference.
<< <i>I noticed that some of the coins sold for less than Laura's estimate while others went for FAR more. I bid online and won a few auctions, but I can't speak to how any coins other than the 3 I won look in person.
I don't care at all about stickers but when I see a coin in a big auction without one, I immediately wonder why not. For example, Lot 149 - I won this one. I love the color and the crescent pattern, but it does not deserve a sticker. It has a couple of hits (on the chin and just below, although they are not dark like in the pictures). To me it grades 64, and then got a bump for the color. I don't care, I'd be plenty happy with it in a 64 holder. Lot 234 (which I won) also has no sticker. I think it is gorgeous and to me grades 66 with only a mark on the eagle preventing a 66+. I was very pleasantly surprised at how clean the cheek was in hand. The color is really cool and unlike anything I own (and have rarely seen). I have no idea why it has no sticker. I suppose it's possible it was never tried.
Lot 172 (on which I think I was the underbidder) has really wild colors and sold for over $4K a few times in the past (including a Legend auction last July). Some others went for less than I was expecting as well. I would have loved to have seen this one (as well as all of the lots, really) in hand.
I believe the price fluctuations are because the market at the higher levels is not that deep. The presence or absence of just 1 or 2 people can make a pretty big difference. >>
I was the underbidder on #234! I placed a bid on that one before I went out of town and hoped the bid would hold, but it looks like you one-upped me!
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
David Hall himself was thrilled with the results of his coins. A direct quote: "You did an amazing job with my beautiful dollars. I am blown away by the results!”
Second, we'd like to respond to a few of the points made by the original poster:
2. The Pedigree was not listed on the holder i.e. Davis Hall's name on the holder would have helped a great deal
David Hall did not want people to think he got preferential treatment in any way due to his position at PCGS. In addition to not resubmitting them for regrades, he also decided it was best to keep these coins in their original holders. In both the catalog and online the coins were listed as either "The David Hall Collection" or had the "Ex Hall" pedigree in the title.
3. Not a big marketing push in online banner ads specific to this collection. The marketing I saw was more around the auction house name rather than the collection
If you're only looking at the banner ads then it may have appeared like this. But I can assure you that throughout the preauction marketing process we focused HEAVILY on the David Hall Collection in all print / digital / email marketing efforts.
5. Focus on Marketing the "Legend" name rather than the current sale - See Pic Below. I see no mention of the David Hall Collection only the name”
This picture is from the PCGS Members Only Show where lot viewing was taking place. These posters (which are present at every Members Only Show prior to the sale) are placed next to our table and outside the show, to explain the day, time, and location of the sale, the lot viewing, and lot preview. This shouldn't really be used as an example of our extensive marketing efforts.
9. Poor Auction Sell thru Rates - AKA Coins Did Not Meet Reserve - 40 Coins Did Not Sell Out of 325 or 12.3%
Despite what people are considering a weak sell through rate of slightly under 90%, a number of pieces sold for record prices. In addition, we are in a down market. All auction houses, even Heritage, will have weaker sell through rates. Based on the market and the number of reserves requested by our consignors, we feel that the STR was very good, and only slightly lower than our previous sale, which had a nearly identical lot total. >>
Feel free to contact us with any other questions, comment, or concerns! Either myself or Laura will be happy to follow up!
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About 230 of the toned pieces from this bank hoard were sold almost 30 years ago by Superior Galleries. About one third of these pieces were optimistically described as "MS67." They were of course raw coins, and brought prices ranging from $1000 to $3500. The MS65's and MS66's, so called, brought prices ranging from about $300 to $1000. These coins had great colors and reflective surfaces, and represent the very highest level of eye appeal of any toned dollar hoard that I am familiar with, including the Battle Creek hoard offered almost 10 years ago also by Superior (under different ownership.)
I purchased 2 coins out of the original Continental sale. While I loved the colors and surfaces, I felt the coins were overgraded by a point and sold them soon after the sale for my cost -- about $500 apiece for "MS65's."
I look at every one of the coin in their sales. I thought the toned Morgans did well. Not all were monsters and there was something for everyone.
Legend Auctions has set the bar very high for toned Morgans with the Sunnywood collection so it's tough for any toned set to match that. What's exciting about Legend Auctions is the fact that they are getting all these neat collections. I know there is a big one coming up in their next two sales.
It's a lot easier to find fault with something than trying to do it yourself. We should all keep that in mind.
<< <i>Legend Auctions is doing an excellent job of growing and strengthening their sales. I am very impressed by the quality of the lots they offer and their professional service.
I look at every one of the coin in their sales. I thought the toned Morgans did well. Not all were monsters and there was something for everyone.
Legend Auctions has set the bar very high for toned Morgans with the Sunnywood collection so it's tough for any toned set to match that. What's exciting about Legend Auctions is the fact that they are getting all these neat collections. I know there is a big one coming up in their next two sales.
It's a lot easier to find fault with something than trying to do it yourself. We should all keep that in mind. >>
Thanks Don!
And that is correct. In case you missed the news, we have been selected to sell The Coronet Collection of Morgan Dollars, the #1 MS Morgan Set on the PCGS Registry, in 2015. The first half of the sale will be auctioned in our upcoming June 25th sale. This will include the finest 1893-S $1. The second half will be auctioned in our October sale.
You can read the full press release here.
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<< <i>I was the underbidder on #234! I placed a bid on that one before I went out of town and hoped the bid would hold, but it looks like you one-upped me!
I will post pictures this weekend. The Legend photos are accurate, though.
The one CAC coin I did win was Lot 240. It is not only the nicest 1884-S in AU58 I've seen, but it's probably the nicest AU58 of any Morgan I've come across.
A question to Legend. Will there be an opportunity to view the coins other than in Las Vegas?
Latin American Collection
<< <i>Seems like the OP has a track record of ngative posts about Legend. >>
This was what I was afraid of when I did this analysis. The Legend defender would come out of the woodwork and would be upset as they are a small but vocal group. If I would have posted the same thing about Stacks Bowers or Heritage no one would have thought it was personal.
As I said to TradeNutDollar via PM:
Thanks for the response in my thread. I am not trying to say Legend did anything wrong only to point out some areas for improvement. I like there auctions but have concerns about the growing pains of a new auction company so this was intended as constructive criticism. I'm planning if I have the time in the next month to do a write up on Stacks Bowers and well. Trust me SB auctions have a ton more things to fix than this small list.
If anyone things this is about Laura or Legend they are missing the point. These were simply ways that specific auction could be improved. If I was consigning something I would how the auction house would always take a lessons learned list from each auction so they engaged in continuous improvement.
<< <i>Looks like one old friend in there.
Wow!
My YouTube Channel
<< <i>
<< <i>I was the underbidder on #234! I placed a bid on that one before I went out of town and hoped the bid would hold, but it looks like you one-upped me!
I will post pictures this weekend. The Legend photos are accurate, though.
The one CAC coin I did win was Lot 240. It is not only the nicest 1884-S in AU58 I've seen, but it's probably the nicest AU58 of any Morgan I've come across.
A question to Legend. Will there be an opportunity to view the coins other than in Las Vegas? >>
Hi David,
Yes we plan to take the coins to a number of upcoming shows, but if you're close by and it's more convenient, you can always set up a time to view the lots in our NJ office. Please email me at devin@legendauctions.com if you'd like to set something up!
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems like the OP has a track record of ngative posts about Legend. >>
This was what I was afraid of when I did this analysis. The Legend defender would come out of the woodwork and would be upset as they are a small but vocal group. If I would have posted the same thing about Stacks Bowers or Heritage no one would have thought it was personal.
As I said to TradeNutDollar via PM:
Thanks for the response in my thread. I am not trying to say Legend did anything wrong only to point out some areas for improvement. I like there auctions but have concerns about the growing pains of a new auction company so this was intended as constructive criticism. I'm planning if I have the time in the next month to do a write up on Stacks Bowers and well. Trust me SB auctions have a ton more things to fix than this small list.
If anyone things this is about Laura or Legend they are missing the point. These were simply ways that specific auction could be improved. If I was consigning something I would how the auction house would always take a lessons learned list from each auction so they engaged in continuous improvement. >>
And we appreciate the constructive criticism. I hope you didn't take the reply as aggressive. We were just trying to address them point by point.
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I have never met Laura nor have I done business with Legend to this date - and hopefully I will some day.
It's just that I see an individual (you) who is talented in their writing and someone who has that kind of skillset, who researched his thoughts and ran an analysis ought to write a balanced article of findings which is truly deserving. You made a comment that this is what you were affraid of.....
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
<< <i>And that is correct. In case you missed the news, we have been selected to sell The Coronet Collection of Morgan Dollars, the #1 MS Morgan Set on the PCGS Registry, in 2015. The first half of the sale will be auctioned in our upcoming June 25th sale. This will include the finest 1893-S $1. The second half will be auctioned in our October sale.
You can read the full press release here. >>
In winning the selection it probably didn't hurt that Legend helped assemble some/most of this collection for the owner. I do find it puzzling that if the owner of the Coronet collection has been searching for 50 years for the all time best silver dollars for their set, why didn't they buy either the Norweb MS67 (late 1980's) or Vermeulle MS67 (2001) out of those respective auctions? Would have been a lot cheaper to buy the Vermeulle coin for a little over $400K in 2001 then to wait a number of years until it was a >$1 MILL coin? Or maybe they just waited until the Norweb coin got conserved/ruined to make the decision to go after the Vermeulle coin? I'm not even a silver dollar collector but when I saw the Vermeulle coin (raw) at auction viewing in 2001 I was pretty sure there could be no finer specimen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like one old friend in there.
Wow!
Here is a bit better pic. not mine, but the guy who took it, nailed it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like one old friend in there.
Wow!
Here is a bit better pic. not mine, but the guy who took it, nailed it.
I'd pay full bid for that one!
Ah heck, I'd round it up to $100!
My YouTube Channel
<< <i>
<< <i>Seems like the OP has a track record of ngative posts about Legend. >>
This was what I was afraid of when I did this analysis. The Legend defender would come out of the woodwork and would be upset as they are a small but vocal group. If I would have posted the same thing about Stacks Bowers or Heritage no one would have thought it was personal.
As I said to TradeNutDollar via PM:
Thanks for the response in my thread. I am not trying to say Legend did anything wrong only to point out some areas for improvement. I like there auctions but have concerns about the growing pains of a new auction company so this was intended as constructive criticism. I'm planning if I have the time in the next month to do a write up on Stacks Bowers and well. Trust me SB auctions have a ton more things to fix than this small list.
If anyone things this is about Laura or Legend they are missing the point. These were simply ways that specific auction could be improved. If I was consigning something I would how the auction house would always take a lessons learned list from each auction so they engaged in continuous improvement. >>
I call BS........mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fortunately, the western and southern half of the country was still thinking about coins!!
<< <i>I was the underbidder on #234! I placed a bid on that one before I went out of town and hoped the bid would hold, but it looks like you one-upped me!
Here's the best I was able to do with kitchen lighting and my iPhone camera.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
<< <i>First off we'd like to thank everyone who had kind words to say about our sale and the catalog! We're committed to putting on only the best of the best auctions for our bidders and consignors!
David Hall himself was thrilled with the results of his coins. A direct quote: "You did an amazing job with my beautiful dollars. I am blown away by the results!” >>
This is really all that matters. If the consignor is thrilled, then the other comments are moot.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
As a data person, as well as an experienced auction watcher in MANY venues, assertions regarding sell through rates need to be taken in the context of the venue, the market, the reserve (high, low or crazy high) the timing and the product being auctioned. The coin market is very specialized and subject to other constraints such as the weather as mentioned earlier. It is typically a thin market and small things can have major effects upon the results.
Good analysis presents the data and draws inferences from the objective information. It is much easier to write than to gather data and do in depth analysis.
Just one observers opinion