Selling counterfeit coins at local coin club meetings
FunwithMPL
Posts: 329 ✭✭✭
I'm so sad to report that my local coin club is selling counterfeit coins in its auctions. The coins are marked on the flips and not on the coin itself. I disagree with this practices. What do the members of the forum think about a local coin club selling counterfeit coins?
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Don't know how to get around the law but I'm sure it's doable.
bob
<< <i>I'm so sad to report that my local coin club is selling counterfeit coins in its auctions. The coins are marked on the flips and not on the coin itself. I disagree with this practices. What do the members of the forum think about a local coin club selling counterfeit coins? >>
I have a few fakes/counterfeits that I've bought over the years, but always out of token books or clearly marked/sold as such.
There is a large following for these, and as long as it's disclosed up front, it used to be just fine. My coin club over the years have sold a "Cast Copy" here and there (our auctions are all member consignments, so they pop up now and then) and I never had an issue with them being sold as long as it was not being passed off as a non-counterfeit.
The problem the counterfeit clubs are having is the new Hobby Protection Act. It was put in place to help the hobby, but it has now made it nearly impossible to buy/sell (even knowingly) counterfeits for those who wish to.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
-Paul
If you are members of the A.N.A. you should read the A.N.A. member code of Ethics.
Should a local coin club obey the rules of the A.N.A. if it belongs to the A.N.A.?
<< <i>Paul and Dunno
>>
That's epcjimi1 to you. Not Dunno. Nice. ANA reference. Go look at ebay. Cite the ANA to them.
Don't think he was referencing eBay........just his local coin club meeting?
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
As others have said, contemporary counterfeits of coins produced at the beginning of the 20th century and older have a collector following. Their legal status gets more questionable as the coins get younger. Very old ones from the 1600s and 1700s pose no problem. Later ones from the 1800s and 1900s can get dicey, but they are usually traded with a wink. Later than that and you are skating on thinner and thinner ice.
If these things are Chinese counterfeits, I'd be ready to raise hell at the meetings and walk away from the organization if they didn't mend their ways. In fact I'd be tempted to report them to law enforcement. That excrement does not have any place in any legitimate club EXCEPT for educational purposes to warn other collectors about it. The fact that the holder is marked "COUNTERFEIT"means nothing. All one needs to do is remove from the holder and use it for nefarious purposes.
Many years ago I belonged to a club where the treasurer was selling counterfeit gold dollars to the president and anyone else who was ignorant enough to buy them. These things were really bad. Their die work that was similar to those "California fractional gold pieces" with the bear on the back, except that they were patterned after Type I gold dollars. The treasure was selling them for $75 apiece, which was the going retail price for Mint State Type I gold dollars at the time (1970s).
I was in my early 20s and the treasure was in his 70s and a founder of the club, but I finally got the courage to tell the president what was going on. That didn't make me very popular with some the members of the club, but the president did get his money back. Sometimes you just have to do what's right and say to hell with the popularity contests.
<< <i>Go look at ebay
Don't think he was referencing eBay........just his local coin club meeting? >>
Yep, I knew my ebay reference would come up, but, it is a reference to what is acceptable in the real world, not some ANA subscription of your club to ANA standards.
OP made no admission of his club of subscribing to ANA criteria.
<< <i>I'm so sad to report that my local coin club is selling counterfeit coins in its auctions. The coins are marked on the flips and not on the coin itself. I disagree with this practices. What do the members of the forum think about a local coin club selling counterfeit coins? >>
It just does not pass my personal "do the right thing" thought process.
1) as well intentioned as marking the flips may be, it is passing on the opportunity for some guy down the line (however far down that line it may be) with less than desired ethics to simply remove it from the flip and try to pass it.
2) I'm sure the coin club knows and polices their own, but again, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, the unmarked coin can make it out into wider circles at some point.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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<< <i>Paul and Dunno
If you are members of the A.N.A. you should read the A.N.A. member code of Ethics.
Should a local coin club obey the rules of the A.N.A. if it belongs to the A.N.A.? >>
Regarding counterfeits and the ANA Bylaws and Code of Ethics:
Member:
Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, restrike or reproduction of any numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word "counterfeit," "copy," "restrike," or "reproduction," incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, with the exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented as genuine. [emphasis added]
Dealer:
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such. [emphasis added]
ANA Bylaws and Code of Ethics
Ignoring the legality of the auctions, does the selling/auctioning of counterfeits in your club violate the member or dealer ANA Code of Ethics? Are the items "generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented as genuine?" Are they not "clearly labeled as counterfeits?"
Edited for grammar ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>I'm so sad to report that my local coin club is selling counterfeit coins in its auctions. The coins are marked on the flips and not on the coin itself. I disagree with this practices. What do the members of the forum think about a local coin club selling counterfeit coins? >>
I would be uneasy too.
Few years back, I use to buy counterfeit US gold coins for melt as they came in. I would mark them as such and sell them at 98-99% of melt over the counter to customers. Well one of the vest pocket ers who use to come by the shop , bought a couple and took them around to the other dealers in our area and pawned them off as good coins. When I made my rounds to the other shops I saw what had happened, and after that point, any and all fake gold coins, I beat / smash up and sell as pure scrap in the appropriate 21.4 k bag.
See the following:
The Hobby Protection Act as Amended by the Collectible Coin Protection Act
and
The Unintended Consequences of the Collectible Coin Protection Act
Most counterfeit collectors, such as myself, are a bit irked over this.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm so sad to report that my local coin club is selling counterfeit coins in its auctions. The coins are marked on the flips and not on the coin itself. I disagree with this practices. What do the members of the forum think about a local coin club selling counterfeit coins? >>
I would be uneasy too. >>
Similar things happen at my local club. Unfortunately, I am guessing that some fakes are being sold in the real coin section as well. There is no expert authenticator at the club. It might cause a lot of hard feelings, if a non-expert calls another member on passing fakes. Also, there are usually over a hundred items potentially up for auction, so it would be a huge task to screen them all.
My ugly conclusion is that a percentage of coin collectors and dealers are weasels and will try to get away with what they can. I would like to think it is a tiny percentage, but my observations indicate that the weasel population is larger than most would hope. Observing the suspected weasels at the local club and how much they try to get away with, is one reason my enthusiasm for coin collecting has waned. Who wants to be feeding a bunch of weasels or have a weasel as a friend?
<< <i>As others have said, contemporary counterfeits of coins produced at the beginning of the 20th century and older have a collector following. Their legal status gets more questionable as the coins get younger. Very old ones from the 1600s and 1700s pose no problem. Later ones from the 1800s and 1900s can get dicey, but they are usually traded with a wink. Later than that and you are skating on thinner and thinner ice. >>
Why are older counterfeits "no problem" from a legal perspective? Is there a US law exempting them like the Chinese pre-1949 law?
<< <i>Why are older counterfeits "no problem" from a legal perspective? Is there a US law exempting them like the Chinese pre-1949 law? >>
Under Federal Law there is no exception.
They are treated the same, although it's a common myth to say otherwise.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
By legal definition the "1913 Liberty Nickels", as an unauthorized issue, are indeed "counterfeit" coins.
I would not define a 1913 Liberty Nickel as counterfeit. It was made by the US Mint. Not a fake.
Maybe not legal to own, per se, but not a fake.
bob
<< <i>Also, even though the "Collectible Coin Protection Act" does appear to restrict 'contemporary counterfeits', until there exists a successful prosecution under that act, there is nothing to prevent a reasonable yet different interpretation by individuals owning the pieces. >>
The FTC's interpretation is fairly watertight on this matter. Under Title 16, �304.1:
<< <i>(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government.
[...]
(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals. >>
Any proposed alternate interpretation seems difficult with this, and as a counterfeit collector trust me, I've looked. :-)
<< <i>I still haven't read the actual text of the CCPA, but wonder if perhaps enforcement of that act against a hobbyist/other for the sale of a contemporary counterfeit will even ever be attempted. >>
As I posted earlier: The Hobby Protection Act as Amended by the Collectible Coin Protection Act
If a counterfeit (as defined and interpreted by the FTC) is to be sold, it must be marked COPY. Before the CCPA passed last December, provided that there was no intent to defraud anyone, it did not need to be marked.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>
<< <i>I would not define a 1913 Liberty Nickel as counterfeit. It was made by the US Mint. >>
Your personal definition doesn't matter, nor does the fact that they were made at the US Mint.
The 1913 Liberty nickels were not "authorized issues", period.
If you broke into the BEP and printed up a bunch of $50 notes, went out and spent them, do you think you could claim you were not guilty of counterfeiting because you printed them at BEP? >>
Wow, didn't know the back story of the nickels being minted by unauthorized personnel. I thought that they were deliberately made
by US Mint personnel but just never released to the public.
Breaking into the BEP and printing notes on BEP equipment would certainly be a crime and the notes, if so identified, would certainly
be counterfeits as they were made by unauthorized personnel.
Semantics
bob
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Breaking into the BEP and printing notes on BEP equipment would certainly be a crime and the notes, if so identified, would certainly be counterfeits as they were made by unauthorized personnel. >>
Even if BEP employees made them, they'd still be counterfeits. >>
Also still true, even if they walked thru an open door, as opposed to "breaking in". >>
According government terminology such coins and pieces of paper would not be "counterfeits." They would not have been "monetized" which means the government has not passed its blessing that they are money. That is the whole argument about the 1933 double eagles. The only one that has been "monetized" was the piece that was sold at auction. In addition to the $7 million plus he or she paid for it, the buyer also had to fork over an extra $20 to make the piece an officially issued coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yep, for sure, illegal is illegal, invite the SS to your club meeting, bust the perp, take statements from everyone one in attendance, sounds like a plan to me. >>
You missed entirely, the point of my rhetorical statement. >>
LOL, I wasn't responding to you, although a narcissist may think I was.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yep, for sure, illegal is illegal, invite the SS to your club meeting, bust the perp, take statements from everyone one in attendance, sounds like a plan to me. >>
You missed entirely, the point of my rhetorical statement. >>
LOL, I wasn't responding to you, although a narcissist may think I was. >>
The timing and thus juxtaposition of your post made it seem you were. Thanks for the clarification.
It helps to either quote the person you're replying to, or mention the poster's name in the reply. >>
Whatever.
He ran off 1917-S walking liberties when no one was around between shifts.
After taking a while to decide what to charge him with they decided it was counterfeiting.
Even though it was real silver and done on a mint machine it was unauthorized.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Why are older counterfeits "no problem" from a legal perspective? Is there a US law exempting them like the Chinese pre-1949 law? >>
Under Federal Law there is no exception.
They are treated the same, although it's a common myth to say otherwise. >>
That myth though, is based on the lack of any use of the actual anti-counterfeiting laws to prosecute the possession/sale of what are today called "contemporary counterfeits".
Perhaps there has been a case of that sort of enforcement, but I've not found one or been advised of the existence of one.
Unless and/or until there exists such precedent in the US Federal courts, an interpretation of actual anti-counterfeiting laws to include restriction against contemporary counterfeits is but the personal opinion of the individual expressing that interpretation.
Also, even though the "Collectible Coin Protection Act" does appear to restrict 'contemporary counterfeits', until there exists a successful prosecution under that act, there is nothing to prevent a reasonable yet different interpretation by individuals owning the pieces.
It's also true, of course, that a collector of such items may *become* the 'precedent-setter', upon public sale of such pieces.
I still haven't read the actual text of the CCPA, but wonder if perhaps enforcement of that act against a hobbyist/other for the sale of a contemporary counterfeit will even ever be attempted.
By legal definition the "1913 Liberty Nickels", as an unauthorized issue, are indeed "counterfeit" coins.
Just think of where we may be headed. >>
WOW love this train of thought as many crfiminals use it as justification of their actions. Nothing is illegal until you are caught, lol....
<< <i>
<< <i>as defined and interpreted by the FTC >>
Without any actual conviction, the text of the FTC is but the untested 'letter of the law'.
There is as yet no actual judicial precedent for the use of that FTC language.
If you have one, please link to it. >>
Now please understand that I am not trying to argue but these comments are very entertaining. So if a Law is enacted and has never been prosecuted in court it is not a valid law that can be prosecuted. That I feel would not be a solid defense in court when you are being prosecuted for breaking new laws, JMHO.
If a coin is counterfeit it does not matter what year it was made it is still counterfeit. That is a very simple thing. Now in most things in life there are gray areas and contemporary counterfeits are one of those. I would also suggest that the more contemporary counterfeits are talked about on the forum of the #1 TPG the more attention that will be brought to them. All that has to happen is one person who was taken advantage of in buying one of said coins to place a complaint and all will be done with their enjoyment in this hobby (something to seriously think about).
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org