Collectible Coin Protection Act Becomes Law Read last sentence very important
lostincoins
Posts: 4,278 ✭
Nice little read and considering some of the post that have been posted the last couple of months I thought this would be a good topic of conversation for everyone. This will help everyone have a better idea as to how coins are to be marked and how they can be sold. Make sure to read all the way through and see the last sentence as it pertains to TPG holders. This information was taken from http://news.coinupdate.com/collectible-coin-protection-act-becomes-law-4637/ and all credit for writing is due them. link
Collectible Coin Protection Act Becomes Law
December 30, 2014 By Michael Zielinski
Following several other recent actions in coin related legislation, President Obama has signed the Collectible Coin Protection Act into law. The Act will serve to broaden the existing Hobby Protection Act by making it unlawful to sell unmarked replica coins.
The Hobby Protection Act, which was enacted in 1973, had made it illegal to manufacture or import into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce any imitation numismatic item that was not plainly and permanently marked “COPY”. However, the Act did not make the sale of such items illegal.
In response to an influx of unmarked replica and counterfeit coins manufactured in China, there were calls from industry groups, professionals, and collectors to strengthen the decades-old Act to help combat counterfeits.
In the 112th Congress, H.R. 5977: Collectible Coin Protection Act was introduced by Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas. The bill had 11 cosponsors and was referred to committee without any further action.
Within the 113th Congress, two bills were introduced which contained the same provisions to amend the original Hobby Protection Act. H.R. 2754, which was introduced by Rep. George Butterfield Jr. on July 19, 2013, was passed in the House of Representatives on July 30, 2013 and by the Senate on December 15, 2014. On December 19, 2014, the bill was signed into law by the President.
The Collectible Coin Protection Act strengthens the original Hobby Protection Act by now making the sale of unmarked replica coins illegal and also expanding the scope to include any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in activity that violates the act.
Additionally, the law has been expanded to include the unauthorized use of registered trademarks belonging to a collectibles certification company. The owner of the trademark would have the remedies provided under the Hobby Protection Act as well as the Trademark Act of 1946. This new provision was added to specifically combat fake third party coin grading holders bearing the logos or names of legitimate coin grading services.
Collectible Coin Protection Act Becomes Law
December 30, 2014 By Michael Zielinski
Following several other recent actions in coin related legislation, President Obama has signed the Collectible Coin Protection Act into law. The Act will serve to broaden the existing Hobby Protection Act by making it unlawful to sell unmarked replica coins.
The Hobby Protection Act, which was enacted in 1973, had made it illegal to manufacture or import into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce any imitation numismatic item that was not plainly and permanently marked “COPY”. However, the Act did not make the sale of such items illegal.
In response to an influx of unmarked replica and counterfeit coins manufactured in China, there were calls from industry groups, professionals, and collectors to strengthen the decades-old Act to help combat counterfeits.
In the 112th Congress, H.R. 5977: Collectible Coin Protection Act was introduced by Rep. Lamar Smith of Texas. The bill had 11 cosponsors and was referred to committee without any further action.
Within the 113th Congress, two bills were introduced which contained the same provisions to amend the original Hobby Protection Act. H.R. 2754, which was introduced by Rep. George Butterfield Jr. on July 19, 2013, was passed in the House of Representatives on July 30, 2013 and by the Senate on December 15, 2014. On December 19, 2014, the bill was signed into law by the President.
The Collectible Coin Protection Act strengthens the original Hobby Protection Act by now making the sale of unmarked replica coins illegal and also expanding the scope to include any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in activity that violates the act.
Additionally, the law has been expanded to include the unauthorized use of registered trademarks belonging to a collectibles certification company. The owner of the trademark would have the remedies provided under the Hobby Protection Act as well as the Trademark Act of 1946. This new provision was added to specifically combat fake third party coin grading holders bearing the logos or names of legitimate coin grading services.
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Comments
just make it 5 times as worse as you get rid of one 40 more pop up
till people face the major players in the fake coin market nothing will change
https://www.omnicoin.com/collection/colind?page=1&sort=sort&sale=1&country=0
<< <i>They really should amend it to read "intentionally" selling counterfeits. Otherwise, coin dealers and even collectors will break the law on a daily basis without even realizing it, by trading coins they don't realize are well-made counterfeits. >>
The general consensus is that all people collecting, trading and selling coins should know exactly what they are buying, collecting and selling without question. Ignorance is no excuse. Some who have been doing work to get better clarification of these laws have basically been shat on when that topic is discussed.
I felt that this part of the article is most important "
The Collectible Coin Protection Act strengthens the original Hobby Protection Act by now making the sale of unmarked replica coins illegal and also expanding the scope to include any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in activity that violates the act.
Additionally, the law has been expanded to include the unauthorized use of registered trademarks belonging to a collectibles certification company. The owner of the trademark would have the remedies provided under the Hobby Protection Act as well as the Trademark Act of 1946. This new provision was added to specifically combat fake third party coin grading holders bearing the logos or names of legitimate coin grading services."
And that it is us the coin community that have to stand up and start to make changes instead of just complaining about it all the time to each other. When something is seen to be a counterfeit contact the TPG being counterfeited and provide the web page address so they can investigate it. This would be a step in the right direction as it is not that hard to send an email to PCGS, NGC or others about something you, we or I fell is a counterfeit. It is ok to complain about ebay here but that is like complaining to the loaf of bread on your counter, you get to be heard but not much gets done past that point.
<< <i>also expanding the scope to include any person who provides substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in activity that violates the act. >>
eBay is just a venue
http://www.theblackcabinet.org/2015/02/09/the-unintended-consequences-of-the-collectible-coin-protection-act/
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>I wrote an article about the unintended consequences of the Act last night actually. There are some impacts upon the hobby which are not quite what should have happened.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org/2015/02/09/the-unintended-consequences-of-the-collectible-coin-protection-act/ >>
Some of what you've stated in the article are my exact thoughts.
Previously KNOWN restrikes, which are highly collectible such as the Bashlow Restrikes, the 1823 Coronet Head Private Restrikes, and the 1804 Draped Bust Private Restrike, will be required by Federal Law to bear the word COPY and coin dealers "could" be held liable for selling the coins without the proper markings.
It is, after all, the law.
The name is LEE!
I think contemporary counterfeits are fascinating, but I have always stayed away from them for this reason.
Not sure how much difference this law will make to the collectors of contemporary counterfeits, since the legal status really hasn't changed. I guess the counterfeiting laws have never really been enforced in this area, and this new law does give additional enforcement mechanisms, so it could make a difference in that reguard.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>It seems it has always been a violation of the counterfeiting laws to buy and sell counterfeit US coins. >>
Not at all. Under the old law buying and selling counterfeits was unhindered and there was no problem with any "legal status." Provided you weren't the manufacturer or importer and didn't try to defraud anyone, everything was fine. (Fraud was the crime.)
Now, despite being honest, all copies/reproductions/restrikes must be marked before they are sold. Even if it destroys their numismatic value *as* a contemporary counterfeit.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems it has always been a violation of the counterfeiting laws to buy and sell counterfeit US coins. >>
Not at all. Under the old law buying and selling counterfeits was unhindered and there was no problem with any "legal status." Provided you weren't the manufacturer or importer and didn't try to defraud anyone, everything was fine. (Fraud was the crime.)
Now, despite being honest, all copies/reproductions/restrikes must be marked before they are sold. Even if it destroys their numismatic value *as* a contemporary counterfeit. >>
Yes, I took a look at the counterfeiting statues and see your point, seems an intent to defraud has always been a part of counterfeiting statutes. Seems this new HPA law may be a game changer for collectors of contemporary counterfeits.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Whoop-ti do
bob
<< <i>AAARGH! They had to do that before I finished picking up contemporary counterfeits for my 7070 album. >>
Need a counterfeit IKE?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It seems it has always been a violation of the counterfeiting laws to buy and sell counterfeit US coins. >>
Not at all. Under the old law buying and selling counterfeits was unhindered and there was no problem with any "legal status." Provided you weren't the manufacturer or importer and didn't try to defraud anyone, everything was fine. (Fraud was the crime.)
Now, despite being honest, all copies/reproductions/restrikes must be marked before they are sold. Even if it destroys their numismatic value *as* a contemporary counterfeit. >>
Yes, I took a look at the counterfeiting statues and see your point, seems an intent to defraud has always been a part of counterfeiting statutes. Seems this new HPA law may be a game changer for collectors of contemporary counterfeits. >>
I wouldn't worry too much about being a game changer, because it will take "one of our own" to report counterfeits. I doubt anyone is going to
snitch on 200 year old classics that are well documented in the Red Book for example. I don't think the police or any other agency is going to go
out hunting people down too much.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>This is good for the hobby. It's either a counterfeit or it isn't, period. >>
So simple yet absolutely the case. Yes it will make the Micro-O vams unsalable in public auction. What will this effect, 50 coins a year? Contemporary counterfeits? Well if nobody complains about it, nobody is going to mess with you. If you collect them, you are not going to complain. Contemporary restrikes? If they are recognized as historical pieces on their own, I am guessing there will be no problem. This helps millions while it causes some inconvenience to a small population. Think of the greater good. Also, this allows our hosts to go after the counterfeiters at every stage of distribution. Worst case scenerio PCGS and NGC will be able to get some of the distributors and sellers. Best case, they can leverage these people into getting people higher up on the food chain.
<< <i>
<< <i>This is good for the hobby. It's either a counterfeit or it isn't, period. >>
Yes it will make the Micro-O vams unsalable in public auction. >>
Not necessarily. The "Micro-o" Morgan Silver Dollars have achieved a status in numismatics such that they could be considered "original numismatic items" in their own right.
<< <i>The "Micro-o" Morgan Silver Dollars have achieved a status in numismatics such that they could be considered "original numismatic items" in their own right. >>
Yes and the law as written makes no distinction.
I can imagine this would impact some of your own art, too, Mr. Carr.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>
<< <i>The "Micro-o" Morgan Silver Dollars have achieved a status in numismatics such that they could be considered "original numismatic items" in their own right. >>
Yes and the law as written makes no distinction. >>
Correct. The HPA makes do distinction between US Mint items and privately made items.
Is a Carr over-strike "1964-D" Peace Dollar an "original numismatic item" in it's own right ?
Uh oh - now I've done it
<< <i>Is a Carr over-strike "1964-D" Peace Dollar an "original numismatic item" in it's own right ?
Uh oh - now I've done it
Hit the deck! Debate imminent! :-)
I'm just dropping the relevant sections and retreating to watch:
<< <i>FTC Title 16 304.1(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government. >>
<< <i>HPA/CCPA Sec 2(b) COINS AND OTHER NUMISMATIC ITEMS. - The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce, or the sale in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act. >>
http://www.theblackcabinet.org/collectible-coin-protection-act/
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
<< <i>@ Steve Caruso,
1st of all, welcome! >>
Thanks. :-) I'm a long-time lurker, but recent member. My "home forum," as it were, is elsewhere.
<< <i>Secondly, I'm afraid you've over-estimated the average reader's ability to 'digest' "legalese", AND the willingness to openly post regarding such topics, among most of those here who are able to digest it.
Nevertheless... I'm wondering if you've read the body of this new law? From the press-release copied at top, it looks a very sloppy bit of law. >>
Given some of the things is tramps over in the hobby, I agree. Sloppy is the operative word.
<< <i>From the PR:
"The Hobby Protection Act, which was enacted in 1973, had made it illegal to manufacture or import into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce any imitation numismatic item that was not plainly and permanently marked �COPY�. However, the Act did not make the sale of such items illegal."
Not sure how else you can "distribute in commerce" without a sale. Maybe the authors of the new law thought the HPA just didn't want them given away in boxes of cereal? >>
Hehe, "distribute in commerce" would catch things like passing them off as change or utter them as genuine in whatever other way.
<< <i>I'd have assumed it surely would have been successfully used (the HPA) at least ONCE in the last 42 years, to punish a seller of such items. That WAS the desired intent, after all.
If this law survives to establish precedent regarding contemporary counterfeits, the only thing it will do is drive their sale 'underground'. >>
Aye the thing that bugs me more than anything else (which I'm sure I've stated elsewhere) is that many of these contemporary counterfeits have attained numismatic status of their own and are a part of both our hobby and out country's history. Most people would consider stamping these in accordance to FTC specifications as destroying them.
<< <i>As many others have pointed out, it sure isn't going to slow, hinder, or otherwise impair the influx and sale of the modern fakes. >>
Indeed, we need something with much "sharper teeth" to take on modern counterfeiting, as the modern counterfeit market is growing exponentially. The marking requirements now, I admit, make taking on cases on -- say -- eBay more feasible, but your average person isn't going to lawyer-up to take advantage of it.
<< <i>Maybe I'll just give my collection of them away and someone can send me a "gift" through PayPal. (That was sarcasm, of course.) >>
Hehe or "lease" them out in perpetuity, or any other kind of legal loophole. Where there is a buck to be made, there will be someone who tries to exploit it.
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
I can see this new section being very useful regarding items such as buffalo nickels, mercury dimes, quarters, half dollars and dollar coins that can still be used to buy a product off a shelf in some store such as a grocery market. This could have a decent impact on counterfeit modern coins that are in counterfeit holders such as a 2009 Lincoln cent (Lincoln Formative Years) in MS 68 PCGS which has a list price of 1400.00. This is a coin that is modern and does have value but can be cracked and put back into circulation and none would be the wiser.
I do see counterfeiting issues getting worse as many of the companies (overseas mints) producing counterfeit US coins now have an option for 90% silver and 10% copper. If you were to X-Ray this coin that is what it would turn out to be. Now lets say they actually got things right on a 1895 Barber dime in AU, that is a coin worth more than most peoples pocket change even on here. That coin could fly under the radar if it was listed at 20% below going past sales prices (market pricing as of now) and not make a sound until someone played the crack out game with it, but even then mistakes could be made.
Tech is getting better every day, lasers and optical scanners can do some amazing things. This is where these laws are going to be utilized in stopping those that are making items such as these whether within our boarders or from outside our boarders. All of this also applies to modern bullion collectible coins such as ASEs etc...
It is a hard thing for people to help other people these days as when you help most times you catch flack for doing so, just look at our very own board for evidence of that. That being said if all of us just every now and then helps to point out a counterfeit when we see it and report it to the correct people or those that can do so then every day our hobby and to some of us our lively hood will get better.
Thank you to those of you who took the time to read my rambling. John Lost In Coins (and still loving them and our community)
<< <i>Interpretations of the law or parts of it are just like anything else, they serve the need of the one doing the interpreting. All that would be needed for the contemporary counterfeits is basically a waiver from the US mint exempting them considering they are no longer in circulation and used for commerce. (My interpretation) The contemporary counterfeits are not being used for the purpose of paying for the transaction as they are the subject of the transaction. >>
If it were enforced by the Mint, that would be one thing, but it's enforced by the FTC. As a result, FTC Title 16 304.1(d) gave an interpreted statement concerning the HCA which is that *anything* that tries to look like an original numismatic item, regardless of its date or issue or whether it's "circulating" or not fits the definition. The only exceptions are restrikes and re-issues directly from the originating government. So it seems that pretty much anything privately struck, regardless -- under the CCPA's recent changes to the HPA -- must be marked if it is to be sold. :-(
<< <i>I would suggest you turn on your private message option so people can contact you outside of a post if need be. >>
Just fixed that. I didn't even realize that I had turned that feature off. :-)
The Black Cabinet
A database of counterfeit coinage.
http://www.theblackcabinet.org
bump
More than six years later:
Are Micro-o Morgans sellable in any major auction venue now?
This was passed in 2014? I never heard of it and a lot of ebay sellers don't care about it. What is the penalty if you have one?
So it seems that anything produced before November 29, 1973 is exempt from marking requirements
trying to find the other thread i intended to post this to but this will have to do.
ebay's current policy. if you see another page (likely) with this info, please post here.
.
you probably recall being a long-term member but there used to be a few threads each year where members posted about their various interactions with the SS and various legal organizations. i don't really recall but a couple in the past several years but i'm not as thorough as i once was.