Grading difference
cointoss
Posts: 4
I would like some opinions on 2 separate HA auction results of 2 AU58 1895-O Morgan's. On 10/14 one sold for over 11,000 and on 1/15 one sold for 5,200.
Looking closely at the photo's it is inconceivable to me how one can sell for twice the amount.. Am I missing something?
Looking closely at the photo's it is inconceivable to me how one can sell for twice the amount.. Am I missing something?
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Comments
Pete
Louis Armstrong
1/15
1/15 Another under $5K
The one on 10/4 appears to be MS and buyers rolled the dice. The 1/15 is unquestionably circulated.
1895-O $1 AU58 PCGS. This low-mintage issue is rare in Mint State, making a nice near-Mint example like this one highly desirable in the numismatic marketplace. The strike definition is impressive for a New Orleans product, and the fields display a flashy semiprooflike sheen. A fully brilliant example with small abrasions and a few wispy hairlines, along with barely-evident friction on the high points. An attractive piece, very close to Mint State.
Having said that, I think the bidder who paid $11,000 + for the first one WAY over paid, and the under bidder should drop down and thank goodness that he or she lost that one. The coin does not appear to a candidate for an upgrade to MS-60 status, which would be required for that piece to be worth $11,000 +. The coin has a rub on the face and other areas and is not a Mint State piece.
The second piece, which sold for $5,287.50 is more in line. The coin has a slightly better than average strike for the 1895-O dollar, which usually very poorly struck, and it has decent eye appeal for those Morgan Dollar customers who like white coins. Make no mistake about it, all three coins that are shown in the links have been dipped.
The third piece brought less money than the second because it is the more often seen strike for an 1895-O dollar. While the eagle's breast feathers are better than average for the issue, the other surfaces have a "fuzzy" look that usually plagues this often lower than average struck issue of the Morgan Dollar.
<< <i>The one on 10/4 appears to be MS and buyers rolled the dice. The 1/15 is unquestionably circulated. >>
I suppose it's okay to roll the dice if you can afford to lose the money, but when you have Gray Sheet numbers that say an AU is worth $850 and an MS-60 is worth $12,500, I've found that the grading services get very picky when it comes time to give an even slightly marginal coin the MS grade. Paying over $11,000 to get an upgrade for a $12,500 coin is poor bet in my opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>The one on 10/4 appears to be MS and buyers rolled the dice. The 1/15 is unquestionably circulated. >>
I suppose it's okay to roll the dice if you can afford to lose the money, but when you have Gray Sheet numbers that say an AU is worth $850 and an MS-60 is worth $12,500, I've found that the grading services get very picky when it comes time to give an even slightly marginal coin the MS grade. Paying over $11,000 to get an upgrade for a $12,500 coin is poor bet in my opinion. >>
I would argue that if it were to grade UNC it would be substantially more than a 12.5k coin. Out of all coins on the the AU/UNC line, how many actually grade MS60? I think that IF it were to come back uncirculated, it would be graded MS61 or MS62 putting the value somewhere in the high teens, low twenties in value. I am not saying at all whether I think the coin will upgrade or not. I am simply framing in a slightly more realistic way give current trends.
Edited to fix sentence structure.
That and the strike is nice. I'd imagine many MS61 coins would have flat breast feathers. In looking at the Heritage archives for the past 6 years, any PCGS or NGC MS61 that is not obviously a scuffed up slider has fetched a min of $13,800. And if the coin is really solid, possibly a few $K more. This AU58 doesn't have the usual well circulated fields as soon on a typical 58. There is a tough of "brown" on the coin's high points. If that weren't there it would look a whole lot better. To someone who knows the series well and has made numerous 58's to 61's on this date, this might be right up their alley. But, unless you have top notch chops on making these, I wouldn't risk $11K for 3K upside vs. $5K downside. Maybe that deep "Rocky" cut above the eye made a difference.
1895-0 Morgans in MS61
<< <i>The first thing one needs to say is that you can't always judge coins by photographs. Sometimes the angle or lighting can hide things that are visible when you see the coin in person. Some people say that the shots of the coin in the slab provide a more accurate view of the coin than the close-up shots. That might be the case here.
Having said that, I think the bidder who paid $11,000 + for the first one WAY over paid, and the under bidder should drop down and thank goodness that he or she lost that one. The coin does not appear to a candidate for an upgrade to MS-60 status, which would be required for that piece to be worth $11,000 +. The coin has a rub on the face and other areas and is not a Mint State piece.
The second piece, which sold for $5,287.50 is more in line. The coin has a slightly better than average strike for the 1895-O dollar, which usually very poorly struck, and it has decent eye appeal for those Morgan Dollar customers who like white coins. Make no mistake about it, all three coins that are shown in the links have been dipped.
The third piece brought less money than the second because it is the more often seen strike for an 1895-O dollar. While the eagle's breast feathers are better than average for the issue, the other surfaces have a "fuzzy" look that usually plagues this often lower than average struck issue of the Morgan Dollar. >>
If that $11K coin had a shot at MS, the sharp eyes at Heritage would have picked up on it.
<< <i>
<< <i>The first thing one needs to say is that you can't always judge coins by photographs. Sometimes the angle or lighting can hide things that are visible when you see the coin in person. Some people say that the shots of the coin in the slab provide a more accurate view of the coin than the close-up shots. That might be the case here.
Having said that, I think the bidder who paid $11,000 + for the first one WAY over paid, and the under bidder should drop down and thank goodness that he or she lost that one. The coin does not appear to a candidate for an upgrade to MS-60 status, which would be required for that piece to be worth $11,000 +. The coin has a rub on the face and other areas and is not a Mint State piece.
The second piece, which sold for $5,287.50 is more in line. The coin has a slightly better than average strike for the 1895-O dollar, which usually very poorly struck, and it has decent eye appeal for those Morgan Dollar customers who like white coins. Make no mistake about it, all three coins that are shown in the links have been dipped.
The third piece brought less money than the second because it is the more often seen strike for an 1895-O dollar. While the eagle's breast feathers are better than average for the issue, the other surfaces have a "fuzzy" look that usually plagues this often lower than average struck issue of the Morgan Dollar. >>
If that $11K coin had a shot at MS, the sharp eyes at Heritage would have picked up on it. >>
Who says heritage was not the buyer?
Also, Even the crackout guys at heritage can miss things. I once bought a generic coin/grade out of a heritage sale that upgraded 3 points
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The first thing one needs to say is that you can't always judge coins by photographs. Sometimes the angle or lighting can hide things that are visible when you see the coin in person. Some people say that the shots of the coin in the slab provide a more accurate view of the coin than the close-up shots. That might be the case here.
Having said that, I think the bidder who paid $11,000 + for the first one WAY over paid, and the under bidder should drop down and thank goodness that he or she lost that one. The coin does not appear to a candidate for an upgrade to MS-60 status, which would be required for that piece to be worth $11,000 +. The coin has a rub on the face and other areas and is not a Mint State piece.
The second piece, which sold for $5,287.50 is more in line. The coin has a slightly better than average strike for the 1895-O dollar, which usually very poorly struck, and it has decent eye appeal for those Morgan Dollar customers who like white coins. Make no mistake about it, all three coins that are shown in the links have been dipped.
The third piece brought less money than the second because it is the more often seen strike for an 1895-O dollar. While the eagle's breast feathers are better than average for the issue, the other surfaces have a "fuzzy" look that usually plagues this often lower than average struck issue of the Morgan Dollar. >>
If that $11K coin had a shot at MS, the sharp eyes at Heritage would have picked up on it. >>
Who says heritage was not the buyer?
Also, Even the crackout guys at heritage can miss things. I once bought a generic coin/grade out of a heritage sale that upgraded 3 points >>
It's possible that Heritage was the buyer tho I think they'd try to get it for closer to au58 money. Secondly, I think for them it would have to have more than $1K upside to be worth the risk.
It's also quite apparent that the graders can miss things too.
It has a shot at 62. It is not AU. I would not risk 12K for 20K either, but a nice payday if it works out.
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I would not count on it . If you pay any attention at all, there are all kinds of coins that get
sold by HA and are upgraded a point or two and net the buyer 4 or 5 figure profits... that is
part of what the game is about. Then you need to wonder if it is better to leave the "sticker" on,
or go for an upgrade before the coin is put into auction.
<< <i>"If that $11K coin had a shot at MS, the sharp eyes at Heritage would have picked up on it. "
I would not count on it . If you pay any attention at all, there are all kinds of coins that get
sold by HA and are upgraded a point or two and net the buyer 4 or 5 figure profits... that is
part of what the game is about. Then you need to wonder if it is better to leave the "sticker" on,
or go for an upgrade before the coin is put into auction. >>
It could be that some consignors don't always approve of Heritage resubmitting their coins, so H just puts them up as is.
From the images, that coin had a shot at going into a 61 holder. It doesn't really have "wear", just a bit of friction on the front of the cheek and very top of the hair.
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It's not happening.
All you experts saying it IS AU or it IS MS
Unless you've held the coin, your opinion is invalid
If you held the coun, your opinion is just that: Another opinion
We all know what they say about opinions