Thoughts on this Montana rookie psa 10, pretty sure the holder was altered

dgordo · February 7, 2015 3:40AM

im suprised with the white spots on the back this got in a psa 10 holder. thoughts?

Raulsmaster · February 7, 2015 3:52AM

one could argue a couple issues with it but that would definitely be one that is subjective to the buyer

scooter729 · February 7, 2015 4:01AM

Those white spots on the back appear to be on the case and not on the card. Hard to tell for sure, but that was my take from looking at it....

dgordo · February 7, 2015 4:05AM

<< Those white spots on the back appear to be on the case and not on the card. Hard to tell for sure, but that was my take from looking at it.... >>

they are definitely on the card

shu4040 · February 7, 2015 4:26AM

Is that top left case seal
Popped?

dgordo · February 7, 2015 4:29AM

<< Is that top left case seal
Popped? >>

Im glad you brought this up, i believe it is and this pertains to the question i asked in this topic:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=937210

ergoism · February 7, 2015 5:58AM

I'm pretty sure this is a fake flip with a trimmed card inside.

itzagoner · February 7, 2015 6:05AM

^^^^^

agree.

dgordo · February 7, 2015 6:07AM

Thanks all for your opinion. This confirms my suspicions.

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2015 6:12AM

That same card sold on eBay December 17th 2014 for $14,000

That same card sold again on January 13th 2015 for $14,000

Looks like it was returned for the same concerns you have. The seller obviously has no problem re-selling it.

You're in a tough spot because if you send it back (and I personally would for that kind of money) someone is eventually going to get scammed on the card, assuming there really is a problem with it.

Not sure if it's something the seller did, he could have bought it that way, but doesn't mean he has to sell it that way.

itzagoner · February 7, 2015 6:15AM

waiting for the right fish to bite and not regurgitate. seems to be the eBay way.

CDsNuts · February 7, 2015 6:42AM

I'm pretty sure this is a fake flip with a trimmed card inside.

I concur. The spacing on Topps is too close together and the P's look goofy. And then there's the fact that the card is swimming laps in the holder.

Lee

gemint · February 7, 2015 7:00AM

<< I'm pretty sure this is a fake flip with a trimmed card inside.

I concur. The spacing on Topps is too close together and the P's look goofy. And then there's the fact that the card is swimming laps in the holder.

Lee >>

Does the bar code scan?

Dboneesq · February 7, 2015 7:01AM

Yeah, that bottom edge looks a bit rough.

dgordo · February 7, 2015 7:28AM

<< 

<< I'm pretty sure this is a fake flip with a trimmed card inside.

I concur. The spacing on Topps is too close together and the P's look goofy. And then there's the fact that the card is swimming laps in the holder.

Lee >>

Does the bar code scan? >>

The bar code does scan the correct number but my understanding is that this is easy to fake.

grote15 · February 7, 2015 7:47AM

There is a significant difference between an altered holder and a fake flip.

That cert # is an old one.

dgordo · February 7, 2015 7:54AM

<< There is a significant difference between an altered holder and a fake flip.

That cert # is an old one. >>

Hi, thanks for the comment, can you please explain further?

ergoism · February 7, 2015 8:32AM

<< There is a significant difference between an altered holder and a fake flip.

That cert # is an old one. >>

These fake flips only appear in altered holders. The scammer opens a legit PSA slab, leaves the original flip in so that the back of the flip is copacetic, prints what they want on another piece of paper or a bleached flip (obviously with a proper cert and barcode), then puts it in there with a trimmed card to match.

If you have these things in hand, they're easy to figure out if you know what you're looking for. The slab usually pries open fairly easily now that the original seal was broken. They haven't figured out how to do this with the new slabs yet. The fonts don't perfectly match and the cards usually measure short. If all else fails, do some simple sleuthing and see if you can find the real one...

dgordo · February 7, 2015 8:37AM

Thanks, here are more pictures of the flip with the original behind it. Ive contacted the seller, waiting for a response.

ergoism · February 7, 2015 8:47AM

<< Thanks, here are more pictures of the flip with the original behind it. Ive contacted the seller, waiting for a response.

>>

That's the best way to see the fake flips. Any time you have a question about a card you can't hold, ask the seller to shine a light through the back of the flip and take a picture.

grote15 · February 7, 2015 9:01AM

Excellent work, ergoism. That backlight method makes it clear as day.

ETA: Looks like a 77 Topps Chip Lang was the original flip behind the Montana.

60sfan · February 7, 2015 9:09AM

<< im suprised with the white spots on the back this got in a psa 10 holder. thoughts?

>>

Is this the scan from the listing?

Dusto · February 7, 2015 9:28AM

Never seen the light trick before. That is crazy!

dgordo · February 7, 2015 9:29AM

<< 

<< im suprised with the white spots on the back this got in a psa 10 holder. thoughts?

>>

Is this the scan from the listing? >>

No

grote15 · February 7, 2015 9:34AM

Based on the clear visual evidence, you should be able to get a full refund for this card. Good luck!

dgordo · February 7, 2015 11:41AM

<< 

<< There is a significant difference between an altered holder and a fake flip.

That cert # is an old one. >>

These fake flips only appear in altered holders. The scammer opens a legit PSA slab, leaves the original flip in so that the back of the flip is copacetic, prints what they want on another piece of paper or a bleached flip (obviously with a proper cert and barcode), then puts it in there with a trimmed card to match.

If you have these things in hand, they're easy to figure out if you know what you're looking for. The slab usually pries open fairly easily now that the original seal was broken. They haven't figured out how to do this with the new slabs yet. The fonts don't perfectly match and the cards usually measure short. If all else fails, do some simple sleuthing and see if you can find the real one...

>>

Could you tell me where you found the picture of the real one? id like to have it for evidence.

Thanks

ergoism · February 7, 2015 11:45AM

<< 
Could you tell me where you found the picture of the real one? id like to have it for evidence.

Thanks >>

VCP

dgordo · February 7, 2015 11:51AM

<< 

<< 
Could you tell me where you found the picture of the real one? id like to have it for evidence.

Thanks >>

VCP >>

Thanks

MULLINS5 · February 7, 2015 11:57AM

You technically have six months to return this card and you will absolutely get all of your money back. If I were you, considering all of the evidence you have, and the price of this card, and the FACT that he sold it twice, I'd call the local police department and get them involved.

slum22 · February 7, 2015 4:08PM

To the OP, I hope that you have no trouble getting your refund. If your purchase was made through PayPal and/or eBay I think you can be pretty confident you will be taken care of. In any event I will have my fingers crossed for you. This was a very educational thread for me. I will be shining some lights through all my high end flips immediately. Thanks to you and Ergoism for sharing the information on how to detect these altered slabs.

JBrules · February 7, 2015 9:35PM

Very informative thread. Will definitely remember the light shining from behind technique. Thanks for sharing.

BaltimoreYankee · February 7, 2015 10:43PM

Once again, the collective knowledge of this board shows itself. It's a shame that this hobby has such a criminal element infiltrating it. Autographs, bogus packs, bogus certified cards. As long as there is money involved, this is what we get.

Dnice · February 7, 2015 10:57PM

Glad to learn something new today from this board, but even before looking at the clear evidence that its a fake, that Montana card had no business being in a 10 holder. Even the top left corner looks a bit dinged. If I am getting that card in a 10, I want every single corner to be razor sharp. Again, I am buying a 10, not a 9.5. As someone also mentioned, the bottom chips are pretty rough and plus, the two cards (showing the old flip vs the new one) appear to be different cards. The "new flip" even has some PD's that the older flip (which is supposedly the same card) doesnt have.

No question about it - get your money back and then contact PSA and provide them with the sellers info and see if PSA wants to move forward with this but your main concern now is just getting your money back. Period.

jmlabonner · February 8, 2015 2:54AM

This board NEVER ceases to blow my mind with so much useful information! I just got chill bumps seeing that light trick!

dgordo · February 8, 2015 3:04AM

<< This board NEVER ceases to blow my mind with so much useful information! I just got chill bumps seeing that light trick! >>

I actually learned to do that from the psa website.

No response from the seller yet.

dgordo · February 8, 2015 5:26AM

So, the seller just responded with:

"there is nothing wrong with this card, it was graded psa 10."

I guess i wait the 3 days now and hope ebay is helpful.

grote15 · February 8, 2015 5:30AM

Did you attach pics showing the fake flip in your email to him?

Don't forget to attach those when you file your claim with ebay. The item is a counterfeit.

mattyc_collection · February 8, 2015 5:31AM

Hope you get your refund. Seller should refund ASAP.

dgordo · February 8, 2015 5:57AM

<< Did you attach pics showing the fake flip in your email to him?

Don't forget to attach those when you file your claim with ebay. The item is a counterfeit. >>

I attached all the pics in my message to the seller, he ignored that they were even there.

What is the best way to get PSA involved, email them or call them?

vols1 · February 8, 2015 6:02AM

Forget PSA, they are part of the problem. File a police report!

highballer · February 8, 2015 6:27AM

Very informative thread. Could someone explain why the old flip remains? Is it hard to remove or something? I'll have to try that backlight trick on a few PSA cards of mine.

Thanks -

itzagoner · February 8, 2015 7:07AM

<< 

<< Did you attach pics showing the fake flip in your email to him?

Don't forget to attach those when you file your claim with ebay. The item is a counterfeit. >>

I attached all the pics in my message to the seller, he ignored that they were even there.

What is the best way to get PSA involved, email them or call them? >>

if you file a claim with eBay and send pics to the seller to document your complaint, then eBay should also have access to the same pics which will help to defend your position even if the seller proves to be uncooperative and doesn't want to look at them.

either party would eventually need to take responsibility for your refund. this is what happened to me last year under similar circumstances for a damaged goods problem and once eBay saw the pics i sent to the seller (he demanded them) defending my own claim, my refund was sent within a matter of minutes.

dgordo · February 8, 2015 7:19AM

<< Forget PSA, they are part of the problem. File a police report! >>

If I was 100% sure the seller was aware of the fraud I would call the police. I've done a lot of research the past 24hrs and have come up with a lot of evidence that suggests he was involved in the fraud but I'm only 99% sure.

ergoism · February 8, 2015 7:21AM

<< Very informative thread. Could someone explain why the old flip remains? Is it hard to remove or something? I'll have to try that backlight trick on a few PSA cards of mine.

Thanks - >>

The old flip remains so that the back of it looks real.

dgordo · February 11, 2015 2:46AM

I finally received a response from eBay stating that they need documentation from psa stating that the flip is fake.

What is the best way to get this done as quickly as possible? Will psa examine pictures over email or will I need to send the holder to them?

Autos4Alex · February 11, 2015 2:58AM

I wonder if it's possible to track the original flip's serial number and figure out where the fraud is originating?

addicted2ebay · February 11, 2015 3:23AM

Looks like they sold that same card withe the same cert # twice unless the first buyer backed out. I'm guessing they did not have he's making these?

Montana

Autos4Alex · February 11, 2015 3:38AM

I'm referring to trying to track the 1977 chip lang. Only 68 have been graded, and the person with card in hand can probably figure out the certification number. I can't imagine a 1977 Chip Lang card changed hands that many times since it was graded. If we can figure out the last person to buy the chip lang we'd probably have a better guess as to where the fraud originated?

dgordo · February 11, 2015 8:58AM

<< I'm referring to trying to track the 1977 chip lang. Only 68 have been graded, and the person with card in hand can probably figure out the certification number. I can't imagine a 1977 Chip Lang card changed hands that many times since it was graded. If we can figure out the last person to buy the chip lang we'd probably have a better guess as to where the fraud originated? >>

I tried to get the cert number from the chip lang but it was too hard to make it out.

TommyJ · February 11, 2015 9:22AM

Wow, very informative..thanks for sharing.

CW · February 11, 2015 11:18AM

First, I'd recommend contacting Joe Orlando about this personally. Phone contact would be best, but email is good.

See if sending photo proof is good enough for Joe's approval. If not, get that fake PSA 10 on the way to PSA with attention to Joe Orlando ASAP. I'd say those are your best options. Good luck!

Thoughts on this Montana rookie psa 10, pretty sure the holder was altered

Comments