Who is the greater plague on the hobby: counterfeiters themselves or the seller of counterfeits?

291fifth · February 2, 2015 10:00PM

This is somewhat like the question of who is worse: the thief or the fence?

Your thoughts ...

jcping · February 2, 2015 10:03PM

Both of them.

winky · February 2, 2015 10:07PM

I agree it has to be both. Can't blame one without the other.

ricko · February 2, 2015 10:11PM

They are often the same person.... but certainly can be two different ones...i.e. Chinese products on ebay.. Counterfeiters and sellers are equally guilty... I see no difference....Cheers, RickO

ms70 · February 2, 2015 10:12PM

<< Both of them. >>

CaptHenway · February 2, 2015 10:20PM

Equally despicable!

ebaybuyer · February 2, 2015 10:35PM

im in the minority, I believe the counterfeits have forced me to study my series more in depth, I consider myself grateful to have the intelligence to try and stay a step ahead of them rather than cry and whine because they exist

asheland · February 2, 2015 10:38PM

Indeed they are a disgrace!

291fifth · February 2, 2015 10:49PM

<< im in the minority, I believe the counterfeits have forced me to study my series more in depth, I consider myself grateful to have the intelligence to try and stay a step ahead of them rather than cry and whine because they exist >>

The collapse of a segment of the toy collector market due to counterfeits and reproductions may serve as a warning of what awaits coin collecting. Crying and whining are not what is needed. What is needed is enforcement of our existing laws ... something that is not happening because the Secret Service has no time or agents to spend on such things.

ebaybuyer · February 2, 2015 11:04PM

counterfeits are a fact of life in this hobby as well as many others, it can be dealt with by making laws, updating laws, crying, whining, pointing fingers, etc, or it can be dealt with in a sensible, proactive manner. if someone plans to spend 10 minutes a day whining about all the counterfeits, that is over an hour a week that person could be spending much more productively, there is so much information that goes unused because people are just too busy crying and whining. leaves no time in the week to learn anything. the secret service does not have the manpower to enforce the existing laws, more laws wont magically reduce this burden, we must educate ourselves, and its not all that difficult to do. but not as easy as crying and whining about it

TwoSides2aCoin · February 2, 2015 11:04PM

Answered once… but got blocked.

My answer stands firm.

Ablinky · February 3, 2015 12:58AM

I would have to say both as well.

AMRC · February 3, 2015 1:33AM

Initially they are both the same people, as they sell their "products." Both are "knowingly trying to deceive" so it is a dead heat.

telephoto1 · February 3, 2015 2:32AM

<< Answered once… but got blocked.

My answer stands firm. >>

You weren't blocked; that captcha code thing pops up here occasionally. The last time it happened to me was when I started typing a message but was called away from the computer for a few minutes. It "timed out", if you will and I had to type in the code and basically retype my post again.

...and your answer was..?

Edit to add: my response to the OP is that the counterfeiters are the genesis of the problem. Without a supply of fakes the purveyors have nothing to sell (assuming they aren't the same person, as others here have pointed out is often the case).

Justlooking · February 3, 2015 2:34AM

The greatest plague, of course, is the buyer of counterfeits.

Think about it.

19Lyds · February 3, 2015 3:02AM

Gucci, Armani, Rolex, Hermes, Louis Vuitton, Versace.

All brands which are regularly counterfeited and sold to folks that are either looking/thinking they're getting a good deal or that outright know they are purchasing counterfeit merchandise.

Where there's a market, there's a supplier to fill that market. Average folks wanting to look wealthy. Wealthy folks wanting to get even wealthier by providing for the needs of the ignorant.

Who is the bigger problem?

Obviously, the counterfeiter because without their illegally manufactured product, there simply would be no market and no problem. After all, I can't buy a counterfeit 1891-CC Morgan Dollar if there aren't any to buy.

As for the influx of Chinese Counterfeits on American Soil? Blame that on the enterprising entrepeneurs looking to score big off the ignorant in the coin collecting world. (i.e. the Sellers)

Is there an answer? Not really because man's appetite for wealth is only surpassed by his desire to breed. Arming oneself with knowledge is the only viable option.

RedTiger · February 3, 2015 3:10AM

<< im in the minority, I believe the counterfeits have forced me to study my series more in depth, I consider myself grateful to have the intelligence to try and stay a step ahead of them rather than cry and whine because they exist >>

Unless a person is a top expert, a good fake is going to challenge them. Even the full-time authenticators at the TPGs get a run for their money from the best fakes. Those top experts are likely literally a thousand times more skilled than you are, with a thousand times more time invested because it is their job. My guess is that you are mostly talking about crude fakes, perhaps some mid-level fakes.

An average collector can study a little bit and quickly spot the crude fakes. With a lot of study, he/she can spot the mid-level fakes. This might involve going to the ANA summer seminar spending several hundreds of dollars on airfare and lodging plus the ANA course fees, plus a few hundred hours of follow up study. The best fakes are going to fool almost all collectors. Anyone saying different is almost sure to be fooling themselves.

I attend a local coin club. Attendance is 30 to 40 people. Maybe 3 to 5 of them can spot mid-level fakes. Not a single one is qualified to go against high quality fakes. One club dealer brought in a 1916-D dime that they scrutinized closely. He bought the coin, sent it in to PCGS and it turned out to be fake. The dime was likely only a medium high quality fake, not their best work. These are coin club folks, including some part-time dealers, so they tend to see many more live coins than most collectors. Those that are sitting home alone are likely less expert than this sample. If people want to fool themselves, go ahead, but don't believe for a minute that reading a book and/or watching a video, qualifies a person to authenticate.

ebaybuyer · February 3, 2015 3:44AM

redtiger, how can you possibly pretend to know what anyone's skills are other than your own ? simply put you don't know anything about anyone's skill set so you should refrain from pretending to

COALPORTER · February 3, 2015 4:12AM

<< redtiger, how can you possibly pretend to know what anyone's skills are other than your own ? simply put you don't know anything about anyone's skill set so you should refrain from pretending to >>

Hehe, I am trying to figure out how one would test and measure "1000 times better" when it comes to coin detection. The reminds me of a
certain Hollywood director that would order a scene to be " 30 percent funnier" or " 5 times more awesome" ??

ebaybuyer · February 3, 2015 4:25AM

I know a few people who in their series, actually are experts, would I say they are "1000 times" more knowledgeable than a TPG grader ? no, because I unlike redtiger, have no idea what ANYONES skill level is, I do know people that can read books though, and I know people who walk with their feet rather than using them to satisfy an oral fixation. my point was, that the time spent whining about counterfeits would MUCH better be spent learning how to spot them. perhaps some members here believe it is senseless to even try and educate one's self, just whine and cry and be glad the TPG graders know "1000 times" as much as you do.

MGLICKER · February 3, 2015 4:25AM

<< counterfeits are a fact of life in this hobby as well as many others, it can be dealt with by making laws, updating laws, crying, whining, pointing fingers, etc, or it can be dealt with in a sensible, proactive manner. if someone plans to spend 10 minutes a day whining about all the counterfeits, that is over an hour a week that person could be spending much more productively, there is so much information that goes unused because people are just too busy crying and whining. leaves no time in the week to learn anything. the secret service does not have the manpower to enforce the existing laws, more laws wont magically reduce this burden, we must educate ourselves, and its not all that difficult to do. but not as easy as crying and whining about it >>

Well well, "crying and whining" three times in the same paragraph.

You are correct about more laws not magically reducing the burden. You are also correct in another post that one should work harder to detect the fakes.

Discussing the counterfeits and sharing information which may save another forum member some grief is certainly worthwhile and hardly qualifies as crying over the problem.

ebaybuyer · February 3, 2015 4:38AM

I don't believe I suggested that sharing information and discussing counterfeits did qualify as crying and whining, crying and whining is crying and whining, oh sorry, I forgot im not supposed to use the same words more than once in a paragraph

410a · February 3, 2015 5:05AM

At a local B&M I saw a lady of advanced years, spry and alert spin a tale of her coins coming from overseas "an old hoard" and they are oh so valuable her brother sends them to her. They were of an unknow metal and they sound like silver when spilled on the counter. They are "mules" of incredible quality Morgan dollar obverses with Trade dollar reverses. They are crap counterfeited in China, abeit, high quality crap. The B&M dealer said' "Yeah, well tell your brother to stop buying them" I haven't got time to look at this crap anymore. Apparently they are sold to "idiots" at local bars as "rare coins" yes, they are "rare" but not real. The way the woman behaved it was as if she was well rehearsed in possible rejection and lacked any "real shock" at the verdict.

lostincoins · February 3, 2015 5:22AM

<< 

<< im in the minority, I believe the counterfeits have forced me to study my series more in depth, I consider myself grateful to have the intelligence to try and stay a step ahead of them rather than cry and whine because they exist >>

The collapse of a segment of the toy collector market due to counterfeits and reproductions may serve as a warning of what awaits coin collecting. Crying and whining are not what is needed. What is needed is enforcement of our existing laws ... something that is not happening because the Secret Service has no time or agents to spend on such things. >>

The problem is that so many laws are being enacted every day that the people who are supposed to enforce them can't keep up because they are too busy reading up on all the constant changes. Just look at the changes in political funding and the Koch brothers.

I feel that both parties are responsible. Without the counterfeiters we would not have sellers right? Also what about those that are buying and reselling counterfeits simply because it is not their daily living, like little pawn shops, uneducated (numismaticly) first time sellers on any auction or resale internet site, antique stores that are run by little old people who dont even have a computer or cell phone (a lot of them in Wisconsin) etc..., do we blame them also. Should these people be required to know all the laws and regulations as I have seen many an educated member on this board complain about being taken at one time or another. We can not know all and the layman coin person only knows .05% of the average here so what can be done? When someone tries to combat something legally and talks about it they get trashed for it so what is the incentive to make things better? The counterfeiters seem the worst part because they take advantage of all these issues, just look at how easy it is to deceive people with a long winded listing on an internet sales site where many were taken just because they did not go through the entire listing. This also shows that the consumer should be added to the list as it is us the consumers of these products that keep them solvent.

silverpop · February 3, 2015 5:58AM

both are

TireKicker · February 3, 2015 7:57AM

<< Both of them. >>

Couldn't agree more

WoodenJefferson · February 3, 2015 9:10AM

One feeds off the other and visa verse.

vplite99 · February 3, 2015 9:14AM

<< 

<< im in the minority, I believe the counterfeits have forced me to study my series more in depth, I consider myself grateful to have the intelligence to try and stay a step ahead of them rather than cry and whine because they exist >>

The collapse of a segment of the toy collector market due to counterfeits and reproductions may serve as a warning of what awaits coin collecting. Crying and whining are not what is needed. What is needed is enforcement of our existing laws ... something that is not happening because the Secret Service has no time or agents to spend on such things. >>

Timbuk3 · February 3, 2015 12:37PM

They're both at fault !!!

SteveCaruso · February 3, 2015 12:47PM

Any person who acts in a manner to intentionally defraud someone -- whether directly or indirectly -- is a guilty party. Full stop.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 3, 2015 4:34PM

<< 

<< Answered once… but got blocked.

My answer stands firm. >>

You weren't blocked; that captcha code thing pops up here occasionally. The last time it happened to me was when I started typing a message but was called away from the computer for a few minutes. It "timed out", if you will and I had to type in the code and basically retype my post again.

...and your answer was..?

Edit to add: my response to the OP is that the counterfeiters are the genesis of the problem. Without a supply of fakes the purveyors have nothing to sell (assuming they aren't the same person, as others here have pointed out is often the case). >>

Thanks telephoto, that must have been the deal. My initial response "timed out''…. PROBABLY because I went on a tear with a diatribe. Saying basically : "Despite inflation, the wages of sin remain the same"…. Long story short, both the fence and counterfeiter are "villains". It's hard to stand on the wrong side of the fence and think somehow there's justification. There is no justification for doing what is wrong. NOTHING can justify "wrong doing". Doing a little good can make up for a lot of bad, but no amount of bad intent can be good.

There is a gate the counterfeiter and fence went through to get on the other side. Best to avoid such a gateway.

pennyannie · February 3, 2015 4:58PM

Fakes do not bother me, it is just the way things go as mentioned above. I would rather deal with fake coins and good honest dealers.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 3, 2015 5:10PM

<< Fakes do not bother me, it is just the way things go as mentioned above. I would rather deal with fake coins and good honest dealers. >>

While I respect most of what you say, I would rather not deal at all if they're fake. They're not even "coins" if they're fake. Technically and literally they are FAKE.

But agreed, better to buy them for what they're "worth" in an open market with full disclosure than to purchase it or sell it with the idea that it is real. And ignorance can be forgiven with restitution made. But denial when it's "in your face" is an ugly , putrid , disgusting and vile continuum that , like a disease , spreads. So long as man justifies it in his mind.
I don't think I could make myself any clearer. Fakes bother me mixed in the fold. They hurt us all. Phonies on the other hand repulse me. They destroy the integrity of the hobby.

Who is the greater plague on the hobby: counterfeiters themselves or the seller of counterfeits?

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