Options
Discuss illegal vs unethical conduct in numismatics.
MGLICKER
Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭
Melting down nickels and cents is I believe in violation of the law.
Many gray areas in regards to other activities.
Chime in with some examples....if you dare!
Many gray areas in regards to other activities.
Chime in with some examples....if you dare!
0
Comments
<< <i>Melting down nickels and cents is I believe in violation of the law.
Many gray areas in regards to other activities.
Chime in with some examples....if you dare! >>
is it a law or a regulation? I know the deal with regulations having the force of law, was just wondering which the melting thing was.
Illegal is when you get caught doing it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Melting down nickels and cents is I believe in violation of the law.
Many gray areas in regards to other activities.
Chime in with some examples....if you dare! >>
is it a law or a regulation? I know the deal with regulations having the force of law, was just wondering which the melting thing was. >>
Looks like a regulation, with up to 5 years in the hoosegow for violators. So if that is not illegal, it must be irregular!
""""Specifically, the new regulations prohibit, with certain exceptions, the melting or treatment of all one-cent and 5-cent coins. The regulations also prohibit the unlicensed exportation of these coins, except that travelers may take up to $5 in these coins out of the country, and individuals may ship up to $100 in these coins out of the country in any one shipment for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes. In all essential respects, these regulations are patterned after the Department of the Treasury's regulations prohibiting the exportation, melting, or treatment of silver coins between 1967 and 1969, and the regulations prohibiting the exportation, melting, or treatment of one-cent coins between 1974 and 1978.
The new regulations authorize a fine of not more than $10,000, or imprisonment of not more than five years, or both, against a person who knowingly violates the regulations. In addition, by law, any coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of the regulation shall be forfeited to the United States Government."""
You may want to watch it to test your moral compass - probably can watch it on CNBC website for another week or so.
PNG Code of Ethics
The Professional Numismatists Guild's Standard of ExcellencePNG white
Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
1.
To furnish sound advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.
2.
To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed between myself and my customer.
3.
To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer.
4.
To refrain from misrepresenting the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors.
5.
To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate.
6.
To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items.
7.
To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.
8.
To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards).
9.
To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;
(b) using high pressure sales techniques;
(c) using misleading performance data;
(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;
(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;
(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;
(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.
(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;
(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency.
10.
To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items.
11.
To respect my contracts with all parties to numismatic transactions, whether written or oral.
12.
To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same.
13.
To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so.
14.
To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage.
15.
To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request.
16.
To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party.
17.
If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board.
Binding Effect
This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.
Conduct Prejudicial to PNG
Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these Bylaws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable law.
http://www.pngdealers.org/png-code-of-ethics
Are these rules invoked by customers, observant dealers and those whose job it is in PNG to do that? How do dealers react when violations of basic ethics are brought up with them? Do they become angry and proud dismissing the issue as trivial or that the blame is with the other guy? Are issues kept in proper perspective, with minor issues not blown out of proportion with the major ones?
Many, many laws govern numismatics from warranties for uncertified coins when that is implied in dealings as well as contractual ones, the state and federal rules governing commerce as well.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
they reversed the trade (nickels for dimes).
bob
If you would have to lie to the police (or other legal authority such as a tax collector) about it to avoid a penalty, then it's probably illegal.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The ones that went bankrupt with other people's money were typically treated as unethical.
(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;"
So would overpricing coins be acceptable with professional customers? Presumably knowledge of VAMs, undergraded coins, other rare varieties would be acceptably employed to buy those rare coins at common money? Dishonesty also takes the form of not disclosing problems on coins, so selling problem coins without mentioning the defects would be unethical as well as buying coins with acceptable problems not preventing numerical grades as "problem" coins would be unethical.
It is illegal to not file all required tax and business forms. If one is unethical by having huge buy/sell spreads making exorbitant profits while paying taxes due but minimized through TurboTax or a CPA using tax shelters is an example of the imbalance of legal but unethical. For the sake of the hobby it would be better if a dealer has tight or fair buy/sell spreads but is loose with tax and other forms though it would be better if they were scrupulous in the latter as well.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Tell me, how is anyone going to know......that the copper they receive.....came from pennies? >>
Perhaps they add a small radioactive or elemental tracer. Add a 1ppb (maybe 0.1ppb) tracer of radium, irridium, or other rare/radioactive element and you can always tell where the source metal came from. This is similar to what the government does with fertilizer, though the tracer is chemical and can be identified by manufacturing batch. So if someone sets off a bomb, they can trace it back to who sold it.
http://macrocoins.com
Owning a 1974 Aluminum cent is what?
Owning a 1933 Gold Saint is what?
Selling any of the above is what?
<< <i>
<< <i>Tell me, how is anyone going to know......that the copper they receive.....came from pennies? >>
Perhaps they add a small radioactive or elemental tracer. Add a 1ppb (maybe 0.1ppb) tracer of radium, irridium, or other rare/radioactive element and you can always tell where the source metal came from. This is similar to what the government does with fertilizer, though the tracer is chemical and can be identified by manufacturing batch. So if someone sets off a bomb, they can trace it back to who sold it. >>
So, you could always get 3 or 4 brands and mix 'em...then what ?
<< <i>By the way the PNG IS A FREAKING JOKE >>
I wouldn't go that far......but I do recall getting repeated hard sell phone calls on overpriced gold from one prominent members firm.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Tell me, how is anyone going to know......that the copper they receive.....came from pennies? >>
Perhaps they add a small radioactive or elemental tracer. Add a 1ppb (maybe 0.1ppb) tracer of radium, irridium, or other rare/radioactive element and you can always tell where the source metal came from. This is similar to what the government does with fertilizer, though the tracer is chemical and can be identified by manufacturing batch. So if someone sets off a bomb, they can trace it back to who sold it. >>
So, you could always get 3 or 4 brands and mix 'em...then what ? >>
That would make it 3 or 4 times easier to catch the perpetrator! More evidence is (almost) always better.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Owning a real 1964-D silver dollar is what?
Owning a 1974 Aluminum cent is what?
Owning a 1933 Gold Saint is what?
Selling any of the above is what?
By government decree, all of these are illegal to own, but IMHO, they are ethical to both buy and sell. I have done it and would do it again.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Ethics has no foundation in legalism - however you wish to say that eloquently. >>
Of course much of the law has its foundation in ethics--what is right and wrong. So dishonesty and deception, price gouging, theft, failure to fulfill contracts, are all regulated by the law as well as unethical. However money talks, and those who can hire the best lawyers can insulate themselves from unethical business conduct.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ethics has no foundation in legalism - however you wish to say that eloquently. >>
Of course much of the law has its foundation in ethics--what is right and wrong. So dishonesty and deception, price gouging, theft, failure to fulfill contracts, are all regulated by the law as well as unethical. However money talks, and those who can hire the best lawyers can insulate themselves from unethical business conduct. >>
And those who are not so well insulated depend on the "honesty is the best policy" mantra, over all other legalities. And thankfully for almost 50 years this has worked well for me, in every trade. For those trades , where it hasn't worked out, I got out.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>By the way the PNG IS A FREAKING JOKE >>
I wouldn't go that far......but I do recall getting repeated hard sell phone calls on overpriced gold from one prominent members firm.
The PNG is a guild, an organization that acts in the interests of its members. Abe Kosoff once noted that the stimulus for the founding of the PNG was largely due to dealers getting stiffed by other dealers. The interests of the PNG members and collectors simply do not coincide. I don't see how one can realistically expect much from the PNG in the way of consumer protectionism. Even the ANA isn't all that good at this.
The real problem is that the business end of the hobby is largely unregulated. There are no demonstrable requirements (ethical or knowledge-based) or tests that are required of dealers, none for auction houses, etc. Anyone buying coins is at the tender mercy of those having more knowledge. A significant fraction of coin transactions are ones that do not involve full disclosure (regarding quality/grade, alterations, the real history behind the item, investment potential (often nil), etc.). Unethical conduct in the numismatic business is the norm. Get over it. And take appropriate steps to protect yourself if you want to collect coins and not lose your shirt.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]