<< <i>[Obviously you DON'T know because you keep referring to it as a piece of "paper". It's LITERALLY an ownership in a business. Are all publicly held businesses essentially worthless? IBM, GE, Coke, and the thousands of stock traded companies are all essentially "worthless"? As for insulting your intelligence, I think you're doing a fantastic job of that all on your own.
It's not at all a question of whether I like what you have to say or not. It's that what you say is LITERALLY IDIOTIC. I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just calling it like I see it. But feel free to say whatever you like. I'm having a great time here and some if not all of that is owed to you. >>
Of course a stock says you own a stake in a company. A piece of paper with a "promise", if you will. It doesn't mean much when a collapse happens. That same does not ring true for many hard physical assets. That is my point. I'll take the hard assets over a paper pipe dream.
The only thing truly IDIOTIC is to play a market that you know is rigged, but you toss your hard earned money in to it anyway. >>
It's no more a "promise" than a mortgage, a deed of trust, a marriage license, a college degree, etc. Our entire society runs on "promises" written on "paper", though it's becoming more and more digitized, especially stock ownership. Even if a "collapse" happens, stocks will not remotely come close to being "worthless".
Once again, a stock is NOT a piece of paper. It's an OWNERSHIP stake in a business that owns plenty of resources, many of which are PHYSICAL and PRODUCTIVE in the real world. I'm stunned you can't draw these SIMPLE conclusions. And your fascination to pray to the alter of a useless unproductive rock that has virtually NO ability to do anything useful for society is beyond belief. People who "play" the markets find that they wind up with money in the end, and usually lots of it.
People who squirrel a bit of gold here and there find they have a very small pile of useless rocks to show for it when it's all said and done. And only the illogical nature of folks like you keep the false proposition of value alive. But then again, it's that very illogical group that I am relying on the relieve me of my useless rocks when I am done with letting them just sit there doing nothing. That people like you will give me a lot of money for the "privilege" of having useless rocks sitting around doing NOTHING in your possession. And yet somehow all of this makes perfect sense to people like you and there is no need to question valuing a useless rock that just sits there providing NO income, function or utility. >>
You don't get it. It's not just about gold. There are many other physical assets. You keep playing a market that you admit is rigged. I don't care. But you probably will if you are deep in to it when the next collapse occurs.
You call gold useless rocks, but 5,000 years of history proves you delusional on that ideology. So does the fact that central banks all over the world are buying it up in anticipation of what they know is coming in the world's economy.
I am done for tonight because I have a busy day ahead of me in the AM. Go ahead, get the last word. You seem like the kind of guy who needs that to feel like you 'won'.
<< <i>The 2008 Market crash did nothing to long term investors who realize the stock market averages a yield of 7 percent annually. Six years ago the market went from 14 thousand to 6 thousand, but is now flirting with 18 thousand. Not bad in my book. >>
At the outset let me state I am basically a SM novice. I've always wondered why the public investors in the SM are always content in the long run gain of 5-7% yield over decades. Does this 7% yield come from an overall number of a 100% yield? Then if so who benefits from the other 93% yield? It would seem,again as a novice,that the 7% is almost a fixed figure and that the overall % will never top that over decades. So with that in mind it would seem to be a controlled/ceiling based % that is divied up to the "rank and file investors", while the "whales" partake in the balance of the profits. How is this figure always seemingly maintained atr this level and how is it arrived at. Please elaborate where I may be right/wrong in this scenario/assertation.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>TARP exits ALLY position this morning with a big profit for the US Treasury.
The Fed wants the market to go higher. Does this mean it is fixed? Does it matter?
Market is going up and investors are making money. >>
Depends on how you view the world. I do not believe that the USG has any business meddling in the affairs of the "free" market.
The market going up without corresponding real economic growth is a dream that will become a nightmare when the latecomers to the party get smoked as they did in 2008.
One of the mistakes that we as precious metals investors tend to make is to start pointing out problems with "the system" and to focus on some of these problems as justification for our own positions.
Inevitably, those who are committed to the system, who work for the system and those who are heavily dependent upon the system will always come along to throw baseballs at us (usually when the metals are taking a hit) - to tell us all how smart they are, how stupid we are, and how their fractional reserve fiat system and rigged stock market are superior to anything that could ever be conceived as a way to manage and preserve wealth.
It's a difference of opinion. The distinction is that precious metals investors are independent thinkers - and the big proponents of the system are the ones who are most dependent on the system. Everybody has to interface with the system, that's just the reality. But it's only the ones who have heavy dependence on the system that tend to consistently look down their noses at precious metals.
So Stan, they won't be won over by any kind of debate. Save your energy and contribute thoughtfully so that the rest of us can benefit. We're still here listening.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i> What has it done in 5,000 years other than delusional people like you ascribing unquestionable value to it while gold just sits there doing NOTHING? >>
What exactly would you like it to do? Compare the circulated $20 St Gaudens to a circulated twenty dollar bill of the same era. The gold will make your mortgage payment. The paper will buy you a corned beef sandwich and a diet coke.
<< <i>As for comparing $20 back when a St. Gaudens was circulating to $20 today, we could also compare a share of Coca Cola from 1932 today and see which one's fared better. >>
Or a share of SS Kresge or Bethlehem Steel or General Motors.
<< <i>Do I really need to defend my position here??? >>
Nope. Reminds me of that quote, "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
Gold is not useless. Gold has value. Intrinsic, collector, industrial, etc. and will always have value. The faith in the ink on the paper you hold has value, until it goes to zero as had been seen before. It then can be used for 3 things: 1) recycled to make more paper 2) wipe your butt with it 3) to start a fire with. Which one, paper faith or gold, since the beginning of history has held some value every single day of every single year of every single century? ("Paper" can be translated to include electronic money. Except it might be hard to wipe your butt with a computer monitor. Not impossible, but tough.)
@ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work. Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Yes, and fractional ownership in a condo unit of a complex provides shelter utility or rental income. Piece of Paper
Deed to land provides timber, or farming opportunity, or recreational or other utility.. Piece of paper!
shares of stock provide fractional ownership of a company that produces products and profits so dividends and capital gains... piece of paper
Abstract definitions of paper are not useful to the discussion. No one is saying go all in or out of any one asset class, except extremists who take pholosophical points to the point of absurdity
<< <i>Yes, and fractional ownership in a condo unit of a complex provides shelter utility or rental income. Piece of Paper
Deed to land provides timber, or farming opportunity, or recreational or other utility.. Piece of paper!
shares of stock provide fractional ownership of a company that produces products and profits so dividends and capital gains... piece of paper
Abstract definitions of paper are not useful to the discussion. No one is saying go all in or out of any one asset class, except extremists who take pholosophical points to the point of absurdity >>
The paper ultimately is as valuable as those that wish to defend the worth of the underlying asset. History is littered with despots nationalizing foreign entities. One can also lose their property to eminent domain. Can be frustrating to lose your longtime family home to make way for a baseball stadium and beg a court for a fair settlement.
On the other hand, distressed shares of AIG, GS, GE and nearly every bank of size were salvaged by an ill conceived bailout that was laid upon the doorstep of the American citizen.
European Jews that fled the Nazi's did best with diamonds and second best with Gold. Real property, works or art and business investments were worth less to them than 1000 pounds of pork rind.
I agree with you Baley, the faith of what's written on the paper has value until it doesn't.
Gold will be worthless when nobody wants to trade paper, stocks, deeds, goods, or services for it. That hasn't happened yet. There have been plenty of paper currencies, paper deeds, and paper stocks that went to 0 who no one wanted to trade good paper or gold for.
Trick is to be in the right one at the right time. I like both for different reasons.
@ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work. Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>Sure, we could pick and choose all day long or just take the whole of the stock market which has not only increased on a percentage basis more than gold, but has yielded SUBSTANTIAL cash dividends in that time enough to buy more than that one ounce gold probably many times over. [/Q
....or take the 1794 Dollar in SP66 which sold for $1000 in the 1940's and for $10,000,000 a couple of years ago. That and many other pieces of worthless metal coins have far outperformed your basket of stocks.
I like opening my pirate chests full of usesless rocks and coins. The mind power to appreciate that outside of someone else's book or movie, no matter the spot price, is the farthest thing from worthless.
Pirate or bot, your decision....I chose pirate long ago.
No, it's nothing more than juvenile name calling. I get it. That mainstream media controlled by the bankers sure has been an effective tool on the ones they have deceived
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia For other uses, see Idiot (disambiguation) and The Idiot (disambiguation).
The Idiot by Evert Larock Page semi-protected An idiot, dolt, or dullard is an intellectually disabled person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.
Seems more like an accurate description than name calling. Didnt you call me a foolish idiot? Keep running, you'll catch your tail someday.
You are one of the people who buy into this system and the paper they use to manipulate everyone with.
Do you not see that you are in fact the one who is manipulated?
Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing.
It doesn't mean much when a collapse happens. That same does not ring true for many hard physical assets. That is my point
What is your point in not realizing the tremendous loss of value when silver dropped from $45 to $15? What good did this hard physical asset afford you?
<< <i>These ancient extraterrestrials encoded the love of gold into the human DNA, and programmed them to love the metal, to mine and refine it, to store it together in stone buildings and underground vaults for easy recovery when they return, and to spread the "Truth" of the mystical properties of the element. Challenge: Prove it ain't so >>
I think you've watched the movie Stargate one too many times.
One of the mistakes that we as precious metals investors tend to make is to start pointing out problems with "the system" and to focus on some of these problems as justification for our own positions.
No, its the only mistake PM investors make. Stock market investors make the same mistake.
it's no more a "promise" than a mortgage, a deed of trust, a marriage license, a college degree, etc. Our entire society runs on "promises" written on "paper", though it's becoming more and more digitized, especially stock ownership. Even if a "collapse" happens, stocks will not remotely come close to being "worthless".
We've seen all types of paper become essentially worthless or go poof. Your home/mortgage can go away real quick any time the govt wants to confiscate it. You can be accused of most any crime and your property seized. The people in New London, CT had their homes seized by eminent domain the town so hotels could be built. That area is now a blighted wasteland...no homes left and no hotels. College degrees? Hardly worth what they used to be. Marriage licenses? Those are often revoked in a court of lawyer depending on how much influence your lawyer(s) have. Paper promises are just that. Don't get too hung up on any promises or paper in this day and age. I'd rather own a killer lawyer or judge than have a piece of paper. Too bad I can't afford either one....lol.
Simply, we are allowed to "own" what the govt says we can own. After all, they supplied the system that allows us to own things. We didn't just earn them via our own hard work. Those are the words from our chief executive. Whatever you think you own, is at the pleasure of the government. Your rights are only as good as your lawyer and your ability to pay into the system.
Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though.
<< <i> It doesn't mean much when a collapse happens. That same does not ring true for many hard physical assets. That is my point
What is your point in not realizing the tremendous loss of value when silver dropped from $45 to $15? What good did this hard physical asset afford you? >>
It continues to afford him protection from a dollar crisis. It's run-up to $45 was a result of a perceived impending economic/dollar crisis. It's drop back to $15 is a result of perceived "fixed" economy. While the smartest play to maximize profit would have been to sell at $45 and re-buy at $15, it does not remove the fact that silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction. The next perception or reality of a serious dollar crisis will result in silver much higher than $45. Whether one holds PMs boils down to what one thinks of the dollar's future. The more threat one sees, the higher his asset percentage should be in PMs. Think of it in terms of keeping a percentage of your dollars in cash even though there are better performing options available.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again.
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around.
OK, I'll bite. How about the London Gold Pool from 1961-1968? Robert Rubin was a Goldman Sachs London operator in the LGP. So the G-7 didn't have a conspiracy in place to manipulate the gold price for those years? If not, I suppose we have wildly different definitions of conspiracy and manipulation.
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
Really? Try reading any of the news from reputable sources about the the Billion$ being paid by the megabanks in fines for manipulation of various markets. To think that any market they trade is immune from the manipulation is well. . . just plain stupid.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around. >>
The burden of proof is on the accuser. >>
Since when? Your claim is more wild than mine. Not an accusation, just fact. In any case I provided an example of the London Gold Pool. Now disprove it.
The big banks have been getting fines from the govt of numerous manipulations of the markets (currencies, metals, interest rates, libor, etc.). Where there's smoke....there's fire...and conspiracy. Any two banks working together would be a conspiracy....or even any two entities within the same bank. Wasn't the fact that many of these big banks knew about the Madoff scam and said nothing for years was a conspiracy of sorts? Wasn't the fact that a whistle blower nailed Madoff years ago but the SEC and FEDs failed (ie ignored) to adequately follow up on it a conspiracy? It's pretty hard to separate manipulation from conspiracy. The entire mortgage backed securities market scam was a gigantic conspiracy by the big banks who ran the derivatives. Nearly impossible I'd say to show that these items weren't conspiracies. The fact that none of these scams are going to court only adds fuel that the boyz don't want to officially labeled as conspirators. They'd rather pay the 1% fine and move on. So, how about that London Gold Pool???
<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor.
<< <i>Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though. >>
If you want to cling to the very limited uses of gold, and the tiny portion of gold that it takes to provide those uses, as if it remotely justifies its price, so be it. But I know you are smarter than that. It IS a useless rock at the end of the day (fact not opinion) which provides nothing but ornamental utility that folks want to ascribe (because of tradition alone) some irrational amount of value to it. >>
Read the literature....not just what you've seen in the comics or on the nightly news. Brian Bloom's book is a good place to start. The simple fact that Central Banks hold >30,000 tonnes of the stuff pokes a huge hole in your thesis. The fact that hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian citizens have sizable gold jewelry, bar, and coin holdings seals it. CB's have vaulted about 20% of the world's available supply. Show me another asset class other than bonds and currencies where that may be the case. If the CB's didn't have any gold then I might be tempted to side with the "essentially useless" theory. Ironically, if the world found out tomorrow that the CB's have no gold, the price would find its way back to $1900/oz fairly quickly as all the so-called owners of rehypothecated gold hoped their seat in musical chairs was still available (1 chair - 100 players....not good odds). That's precisely why the CB's keep those 30,000 tonnes. They have their seat already. Let me know when they've sold off everything.
<< <i>Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though. >>
If you want to cling to the very limited uses of gold, and the tiny portion of gold that it takes to provide those uses, as if it remotely justifies its price, so be it. But I know you are smarter than that. It IS a useless rock at the end of the day (fact not opinion) which provides nothing but ornamental utility that folks want to ascribe (because of tradition alone) some irrational amount of value to it. >>
I suspect Baseball has a closet full of duct tape and WD-40.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Folks like me allocate assets to provide for real returns, some tangible and some intangible, in various scenarios, with various risk profiles and expected probabilities of returns.
Investment percentages in metals, stocks, real estate, small business, bonds, cash, collectibles (among other asset classes) are intended to offset each other and provide different types of returns over different time frames, such that we can be happy (relative to the all-or-nothing types, except for those rare magical geniuses, and liars who always time everything perfectly) no matter what happens, and to hedge the probabilities of certain types of risk. It's also why we buy insurance policies, even though for the most part in my experience, that has been "wasted" money as I never file claims.
To characterize partial investment in "the system" as crazy is, to me, in itself, crazy. edit to add: and baseball, I think your absolute statements about "uselessness of gold" are also philosophically empty and go to far to absurdity, in order to make your very valid philosophical point, makes your actual stance less creditable, than it would be otherwise, IMO. That said, if one's entire investment portfolio is precious metals, and their entire investment thesis is that that's the best horse to bet on, and hinges on "eventual collapse", well.. we're waiting... I've got enough gold to be fine if you're right. Do you have enough "other stuff" to be ok, to meet your financial and life goals, if you're not?
<< <i>I think the comics or the nightly news probably give gold A LOT more importance than factual literature. The VAST majority of gold literally just sits there or exists in ornamental form. But maybe the "literature" says that the highest utility in life is just "being" a shiny metal. >>
Works for the super-models who get $MILLIONs per year. Baseball trophy wives do pretty well too. You probably hit it right on the head w/o knowing it. Being shiny in today's world is probably more important than anything else....and more so today than at any time in history. Looks over substance. And watching TV you'd believe it had to be true. I don't advocate it or even agree with it....but it's there.
30,000 tonnes of gold in CB vaults is no ornament. When you come up with an argument to refute CB gold, then you'll at least have a case. You can start with the London Gold Pool which Cohodk refuses to touch. Sorry, CB gold is not just some "little" amount.
<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor. >>
Who is happy to get even on a nominal basis? The whole point of why people put money in the stock market or investment real estate is precisely to combat the declining purchasing power. >>
Plenty of folks in Japan would be real happy to see the Nikkei at the 1989 level of 39,000. They would still be far from even, but many would tell themselves that they had recovered their investments.
<< <i>That said, if one's entire investment portfolio is precious metals, and their entire investment thesis is that that's the best horse to bet on, and hinges on "eventual collapse", well.. we're waiting... >>
What type of collapse are you referring to? A loss of the basic fabric of our society and lawlessness in the streets? No, at least in most American communities.
On the other hand, the worlds central banks are truly and unashamedly out of control trying to cover unsustainable debt and sluggish economies by tripling, quadrupling and quintupling their respective money supplies. Folks under 50 that do not have the experience of investing in a high inflation/ high interest rate environment see that forced interest rates are at or near zero and think that everything is a/ok. They are also frustrated that their bank deposits are losing at least a handful of points each year for over half a decade.
Really a horrible way to rig the markets, but you have to play the hand dealt I suppose.
"""Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd."""
Pick up a small piece of granite and ask your dentist to fashion a crown out of it. Instead of a nice gold bracelet, hand your lady a handful of sedimentary rocks on Valentines day and see how comfy the sofa is for a week. An ounce of gold is malleable enough to be stretched to the Moon. Try that will aluminum.
<< <i>Gold may just sit there, but kingdoms rise and fall at its altar... >>
Pretty much so. Gold's price is tracked minute by minute on most every major financial news site in the world. Every little fluctuation in gold prices is reflected in world currencies, and vice versa. Those facts alone say that mankind is wasting a lot hours in a "useless" endeavor every minute of the day. Every pawn and gold shop in the world probably has some. Central Banks hoard 30,000 tonnes of it...or about 11 years of world production. Very strange behavior for a useless item. Why don't they get rid of it as Baseball suggests? The world has been off any semblance of a gold standard/window since 1974. Yet here we are the same amount of gold in the world's bank vaults.
Nearly every married American carries a little bit of it on their ring figure. The Swiss people recently had a vote on whether or not to increase their gold reserves to 20%. The amendment was defeated. But, the fact that 22% of that nation voted for it would suggest gold was far from useless. 22% is not a useless number. Rather than useless, gold seems to be invaluable as nothing better has come along in 5,000 years to replace it. It's either that or mankind is as dumb as a rock, or just maybe, gold is not just a rock. Paintings and Art are "useless." We should stop all artistic works and ban them! After all, they are just scribblings on a canvas or a different form of cheap wood. While we're at it, let's get rid of the American pastime, baseball. Talk about a waste of time? Players juiced up on whatever chasing after a ball that's hit with a stick? That's as dumb as collecting tulips.
Still no reply from anyone on LGP or CB gold storage? Anyone see the irony in a coin collector calling gold useless? It's priceless. It's like a bank robber calling a jewel thief a crook.
I'll be back in 2015 when Baseball dusts off this flawed argument and trots it out for the 2015 season. I wonder if he's going to pick up any high draft picks to bolster the argument? But I'd rather not waste another hour of my life in 2015 as I did in 2014. Let's just book mark this thread.
<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
An ounce of gold is malleable enough to be stretched to the Moon.
You mean "ductile", and no, check your math, you're off by a few ounces, even for the finest gold wire possible. We'll ignore tensile strength of the resulting thread for this fun idea.
But I'd rather not waste another hour of my life in 2015 as I did in 2014.
Reading and writing, and looking for things to read and thinking of things to write, are a form of entertainment. At least we aren't throwing electronic birds at electronic structures.
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around. >>
The burden of proof is on the accuser. >>
Since when? Your claim is more wild than mine. Not an accusation, just fact. In any case I provided an example of the London Gold Pool. Now disprove it.
The big banks have been getting fines from the govt of numerous manipulations of the markets (currencies, metals, interest rates, libor, etc.). Where there's smoke....there's fire...and conspiracy. Any two banks working together would be a conspiracy....or even any two entities within the same bank. Wasn't the fact that many of these big banks knew about the Madoff scam and said nothing for years was a conspiracy of sorts? Wasn't the fact that a whistle blower nailed Madoff years ago but the SEC and FEDs failed (ie ignored) to adequately follow up on it a conspiracy? It's pretty hard to separate manipulation from conspiracy. The entire mortgage backed securities market scam was a gigantic conspiracy by the big banks who ran the derivatives. Nearly impossible I'd say to show that these items weren't conspiracies. The fact that none of these scams are going to court only adds fuel that the boyz don't want to officially labeled as conspirators. They'd rather pay the 1% fine and move on. So, how about that London Gold Pool??? >>
So me how exactly this manipulation occurred. More specifically, show me where these assets would be priced if there was no "manipulation". What exactly was the effect of this manipulation? I contend that prices for assets--ALL ASSETS-- would be very close to where they are now. So scream manipulation and use it as a crutch for poor analysis or emotional attachment.
Stocks go up, stocks go down. PMs go up, PMs go down. Real estate goes up, real estate goes down. This has been happening since before QE, derivatives, Madoff, aliens, ect.
How about that London Silver Fix-----end it and bam, prices drop 25%. Yup, maybe silver was manipulated----to high.
Quit using manipulation as an excuse for PMs or the stock market not doing what YOU think they should do.
<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor. >>
Who is happy to get even on a nominal basis? The whole point of why people put money in the stock market or investment real estate is precisely to combat the declining purchasing power. >>
Plenty of folks in Japan would be real happy to see the Nikkei at the 1989 level of 39,000. They would still be far from even, but many would tell themselves that they had recovered their investments. >>
You keep bringing up how terrible it is to be Japanese......why is that wherever I go on vacation--big European and US cities and US National Parks, I see bus loads of Japanese tourists?
<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it. >>
Bonds like deflation. And/Or are you saying the 80 year inflation will pop?
<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it. >>
Bonds like deflation. And/Or are you saying the 80 year inflation will pop? >>
Worsening deflation will pop many remaining asset bubbles. It has been picking them off one by one for the past few years. Bonds will be among the last. I believe the FED will let equities suffer before allowing bonds to be hit. Unpublished goal of the FED is to protect government debt instruments.
If bonds, particularly corporate bonds, are not in a bubble they have no worry.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>You keep bringing up how terrible it is to be Japanese......why is that wherever I go on vacation--big European and US cities and US National Parks, I see bus loads of Japanese tourists? >>
Japanese folks are doing fine but economically the nation is a wreck. Those that ignore it can exist in a blissful state, at least until it is time to cash in those 1/2% 10 year notes and either take a substantial haircut or get paid of with an overproduced and sliding Yen.
I use their stock market as an example of extreme excess which has caused a multi generational time to make a nominal recovery. Some folks here seem to think that the stock market will always come back. Not always.
Some folks here seem to think that the stock market will always come back. Not always.
Can you cite one example in our nation's past when it hasn't?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Once again, you and everyone read and interpret from some point of insecurity and don't seem to ever comprehend the VERY simple words I use. I have NEVER stated that gold is worthless. I've repeatedly stated that it's a useless rock. That's fact, not opinion. Sure you can justify reasons for using it in some manner or other, but nothing of real significance. There are TONS of almost worthless items and resources that have imminently more use in everyday society than gold.
In essence you had stated and suggested all along that gold is worthless and useless. You'll note that worthless is on that above list. Very few of those words describe gold's function. Your argument is as baseless this year as it was last year....and will be next year. Central Banks keep 30,000 tonnes of gold on hand because it IS an alternative currency....probably the 1st or 2nd most important currency in the world. With your argument if gold is worthless then so is every currency on earth. And the list spreads from there. These type of "gold is worthless" rants often show up around major bottoms. In Sept-Oct 2008 the financial blogs were littered with them.
Still no replies on the London Gold Pool which was my example of a blatant conspiracy/manipulation? Cohodk asks for an example and I provide it. He has skirted around this one. The G7 ran the London Gold Pool in the 1960's to keep the international exchange price of gold down from 1961-1968. They expended 3,000 tonnes of physical gold towards that end. By 1968 they ran out of easy gold to sell and disbanded. During that same time from the price of silver more than doubled. Gold was kept pretty flat. Shortly after they disbanded the price of gold peaked around $44 in 1969 (25% increase). By later 1970 it was off and running again. The 7 leading nations of the world working as a team to handle the gold price during the commodity/inflation boom of the middle 1960's. Nope, that's not manipulation. Free markets at work.
Cohodk is too obsessed with the word "manipulation." It's a fact of life in today's markets. Everyone is aware of this. And I've never said the world won't continue spinning the same way with such manipulation. He asked for an example and I provided it. The world continued along just fine in the 1960's and 1970's before and after the LGP. It doesn't change the fact that there WAS manipulation and there still IS manipulation. We all just have to factor this into our daily lives and work with it or around it. Sure, the stock market will always come back to life after it gets obliterated during a boom/bust cycle. No different than how a forest regenerates after a fire. There will always be companies that survive the attack and new ones to replace the ones that didn't. Boom/bust cycles are a fact of nature. They've just been made much worse the past 100 years via central bank interventions.
adjective 1. of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him. 2. without useful qualities; of no practical good: a useless person; a useless gadget..
Nothing here that applies to gold. With Baseball logic, mankind is useless and worthless...along with everything he has produced. The world was just fine without him for hundreds of millions of years and will be fine long after he is gone. The earth is a gnat among the solar system and universe, one sudden impact away from annihilation. It's not a matter of if, but only when. At that time baseball games, fiat currencies, gold, the stock markets, etc. all won't matter much. And to think some "useless dumb rock" floating out in space, containing a crap load of gold can do this to us. Ironic isn't it? Man's complete history is in the hands of a dumb rock. For whatever reason we just can't seem to get away from dumb rocks.
<< <i>What kingdom has fallen because of gold in any of our lifetimes? >>
You don't follow history do you? Some people still in this hobby have been around since 1923. Remember the Weimar inflation? Two of the reasons Germany had no protection from a currency attack was because they had inadequate gold reserves and the fact that the winners of WW1 purposely failed to re-establish the provision for gold "real bills," the back bone of any truly working gold standard. The lack of it affected the ability to trade. Any gold standard in effect after WW1 was lacking this and was therefore ineffective. No surprise it all finally collapsed into a heap by the early 1930's. Gold was partly responsible for Weimar. What about the 1997-1999 Asian monetary crisis? Why did England have to sell off half their gold reserves from 1999-2001? You think they did that to get rid of some "useless" gold? What nation(s) on the brink of financial collapse needed to be rescued from faulty financial controls in 1999-2001 via gold? They don't call it Brown's Bottom for nothing. I can cite more examples but these are the 2 most obvious to me.
You also fail to understand that a world of unbacked/zero gold currencies is only 40 yrs old. That's a tiny bit of time to render judgment on the great fiat experiment, especially since we have yet to see the regression to the mean for all this uncontrolled spending and debt that has accumulated during this current 120 yr economic cycle (111 years of it under FED and central bank controls). If the currencies fail, the kingdom essentially fails. The 20th century is full of dozens of hyper-inflationary events that essentially killed a number of "kingdoms." They all came back to life, but only after being clinically dead for a period of time. People's life-savings were erased. So you could say, the lack of controls on fiat currencies (ie no backing) and any subsequent failures is indeed due to gold. There's a reason the US still claims to hold 8133 tonnes of gold....and it's not because it's worthless...it's because it is critical to the role of the world's currency.....both symbolic and functional. It's not going anywhere.
Comments
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<< <i>[Obviously you DON'T know because you keep referring to it as a piece of "paper". It's LITERALLY an ownership in a business. Are all publicly held businesses essentially worthless? IBM, GE, Coke, and the thousands of stock traded companies are all essentially "worthless"? As for insulting your intelligence, I think you're doing a fantastic job of that all on your own.
It's not at all a question of whether I like what you have to say or not. It's that what you say is LITERALLY IDIOTIC. I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just calling it like I see it. But feel free to say whatever you like. I'm having a great time here and some if not all of that is owed to you. >>
Of course a stock says you own a stake in a company. A piece of paper with a "promise", if you will. It doesn't mean much when a collapse happens. That same does not ring true for many hard physical assets. That is my point. I'll take the hard assets over a paper pipe dream.
The only thing truly IDIOTIC is to play a market that you know is rigged, but you toss your hard earned money in to it anyway. >>
It's no more a "promise" than a mortgage, a deed of trust, a marriage license, a college degree, etc. Our entire society runs on "promises" written on "paper", though it's becoming more and more digitized, especially stock ownership. Even if a "collapse" happens, stocks will not remotely come close to being "worthless".
Once again, a stock is NOT a piece of paper. It's an OWNERSHIP stake in a business that owns plenty of resources, many of which are PHYSICAL and PRODUCTIVE in the real world. I'm stunned you can't draw these SIMPLE conclusions. And your fascination to pray to the alter of a useless unproductive rock that has virtually NO ability to do anything useful for society is beyond belief. People who "play" the markets find that they wind up with money in the end, and usually lots of it.
People who squirrel a bit of gold here and there find they have a very small pile of useless rocks to show for it when it's all said and done. And only the illogical nature of folks like you keep the false proposition of value alive. But then again, it's that very illogical group that I am relying on the relieve me of my useless rocks when I am done with letting them just sit there doing nothing. That people like you will give me a lot of money for the "privilege" of having useless rocks sitting around doing NOTHING in your possession. And yet somehow all of this makes perfect sense to people like you and there is no need to question valuing a useless rock that just sits there providing NO income, function or utility. >>
You don't get it. It's not just about gold. There are many other physical assets. You keep playing a market that you admit is rigged. I don't care. But you probably will if you are deep in to it when the next collapse occurs.
You call gold useless rocks, but 5,000 years of history proves you delusional on that ideology. So does the fact that central banks all over the world are buying it up in anticipation of what they know is coming in the world's economy.
I am done for tonight because I have a busy day ahead of me in the AM. Go ahead, get the last word. You seem like the kind of guy who needs that to feel like you 'won'.
<< <i>The 2008 Market crash did nothing to long term investors who realize the stock market averages a yield of 7 percent annually.
Six years ago the market went from 14 thousand to 6 thousand, but is now flirting with 18 thousand. Not bad in my book. >>
At the outset let me state I am basically a SM novice. I've always wondered why the public investors in the SM are always content in the long run gain of 5-7% yield over decades. Does this 7% yield come from an overall number of a 100% yield? Then if so who benefits from the other 93% yield? It would seem,again as a novice,that the 7% is almost a fixed figure and that the overall % will never top that over decades. So with that in mind it would seem to be a controlled/ceiling based % that is divied up to the "rank and file investors", while the "whales" partake in the balance of the profits. How is this figure always seemingly maintained atr this level and how is it arrived at. Please elaborate where I may be right/wrong in this scenario/assertation.
The Fed wants the market to go higher. Does this mean it is fixed? Does it matter?
Market is going up and investors are making money.
<< <i>TARP exits ALLY position this morning with a big profit for the US Treasury.
The Fed wants the market to go higher. Does this mean it is fixed? Does it matter?
Market is going up and investors are making money. >>
Depends on how you view the world. I do not believe that the USG has any business meddling in the affairs of the "free" market.
The market going up without corresponding real economic growth is a dream that will become a nightmare when the latecomers to the party get smoked as they did in 2008.
But live for today I suppose.
<< <i>There is smoe really funny s... in this thread. >>
I miss Smoe-tis.
Inevitably, those who are committed to the system, who work for the system and those who are heavily dependent upon the system will always come along to throw baseballs at us (usually when the metals are taking a hit) - to tell us all how smart they are, how stupid we are, and how their fractional reserve fiat system and rigged stock market are superior to anything that could ever be conceived as a way to manage and preserve wealth.
It's a difference of opinion. The distinction is that precious metals investors are independent thinkers - and the big proponents of the system are the ones who are most dependent on the system. Everybody has to interface with the system, that's just the reality. But it's only the ones who have heavy dependence on the system that tend to consistently look down their noses at precious metals.
So Stan, they won't be won over by any kind of debate. Save your energy and contribute thoughtfully so that the rest of us can benefit. We're still here listening.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i> What has it done in 5,000 years other than delusional people like you ascribing unquestionable value to it while gold just sits there doing NOTHING? >>
What exactly would you like it to do? Compare the circulated $20 St Gaudens to a circulated twenty dollar bill of the same era. The gold will make your mortgage payment. The paper will buy you a corned beef sandwich and a diet coke.
<< <i>As for comparing $20 back when a St. Gaudens was circulating to $20 today, we could also compare a share of Coca Cola from 1932 today and see which one's fared better. >>
Or a share of SS Kresge or Bethlehem Steel or General Motors.
<< <i>Do I really need to defend my position here??? >>
Nope. Reminds me of that quote, "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
Gold is not useless. Gold has value. Intrinsic, collector, industrial, etc. and will always have value. The faith in the ink on the paper you hold has value, until it goes to zero as had been seen before. It then can be used for 3 things: 1) recycled to make more paper 2) wipe your butt with it 3) to start a fire with. Which one, paper faith or gold, since the beginning of history has held some value every single day of every single year of every single century? ("Paper" can be translated to include electronic money. Except it might be hard to wipe your butt with a computer monitor. Not impossible, but tough.)
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
Deed to land provides timber, or farming opportunity, or recreational or other utility.. Piece of paper!
shares of stock provide fractional ownership of a company that produces products and profits so dividends and capital gains... piece of paper
Abstract definitions of paper are not useful to the discussion. No one is saying go all in or out of any one asset class, except extremists who take pholosophical points to the point of absurdity
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Yes, and fractional ownership in a condo unit of a complex provides shelter utility or rental income. Piece of Paper
Deed to land provides timber, or farming opportunity, or recreational or other utility.. Piece of paper!
shares of stock provide fractional ownership of a company that produces products and profits so dividends and capital gains... piece of paper
Abstract definitions of paper are not useful to the discussion. No one is saying go all in or out of any one asset class, except extremists who take pholosophical points to the point of absurdity >>
The paper ultimately is as valuable as those that wish to defend the worth of the underlying asset. History is littered with despots nationalizing foreign entities. One can also lose their property to eminent domain. Can be frustrating to lose your longtime family home to make way for a baseball stadium and beg a court for a fair settlement.
On the other hand, distressed shares of AIG, GS, GE and nearly every bank of size were salvaged by an ill conceived bailout that was laid upon the doorstep of the American citizen.
European Jews that fled the Nazi's did best with diamonds and second best with Gold. Real property, works or art and business investments were worth less to them than 1000 pounds of pork rind.
Gold will be worthless when nobody wants to trade paper, stocks, deeds, goods, or services for it. That hasn't happened yet. There have been plenty of paper currencies, paper deeds, and paper stocks that went to 0 who no one wanted to trade good paper or gold for.
Trick is to be in the right one at the right time. I like both for different reasons.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>Sure, we could pick and choose all day long or just take the whole of the stock market which has not only increased on a percentage basis more than gold, but has yielded SUBSTANTIAL cash dividends in that time enough to buy more than that one ounce gold probably many times over. [/Q
....or take the 1794 Dollar in SP66 which sold for $1000 in the 1940's and for $10,000,000 a couple of years ago. That and many other pieces of worthless metal coins have far outperformed your basket of stocks.
Pirate or bot, your decision....I chose pirate long ago.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Idiot (disambiguation) and The Idiot (disambiguation).
The Idiot by Evert Larock
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An idiot, dolt, or dullard is an intellectually disabled person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.
Seems more like an accurate description than name calling. Didnt you call me a foolish idiot? Keep running, you'll catch your tail someday.
You are one of the people who buy into this system and the paper they use to manipulate everyone with.
Do you not see that you are in fact the one who is manipulated?
Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
What is your point in not realizing the tremendous loss of value when silver dropped from $45 to $15? What good did this hard physical asset afford you?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>These ancient extraterrestrials encoded the love of gold into the human DNA, and programmed them to love the metal, to mine and refine it, to store it together in stone buildings and underground vaults for easy recovery when they return, and to spread the "Truth" of the mystical properties of the element. Challenge: Prove it ain't so
I think you've watched the movie Stargate one too many times.
No, its the only mistake PM investors make. Stock market investors make the same mistake.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
We've seen all types of paper become essentially worthless or go poof. Your home/mortgage can go away real quick any time the govt wants to confiscate it. You can be accused of most any crime and your property seized. The people in New London, CT had their homes seized by eminent domain the town so hotels could be built. That area is now a blighted wasteland...no homes left and no hotels. College degrees? Hardly worth what they used to be. Marriage licenses? Those are often revoked in a court of lawyer depending on how much influence your lawyer(s) have. Paper promises are just that. Don't get too hung up on any promises or paper in this day and age. I'd rather own a killer lawyer or judge than have a piece of paper. Too bad I can't afford either one....lol.
Simply, we are allowed to "own" what the govt says we can own. After all, they supplied the system that allows us to own things. We didn't just earn them via our own hard work. Those are the words from our chief executive. Whatever you think you own, is at the pleasure of the government. Your rights are only as good as your lawyer and your ability to pay into the system.
Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though.
<< <i> It doesn't mean much when a collapse happens. That same does not ring true for many hard physical assets. That is my point
What is your point in not realizing the tremendous loss of value when silver dropped from $45 to $15? What good did this hard physical asset afford you? >>
It continues to afford him protection from a dollar crisis. It's run-up to $45 was a result of a perceived impending economic/dollar crisis. It's drop back to $15 is a result of perceived "fixed" economy. While the smartest play to maximize profit would have been to sell at $45 and re-buy at $15, it does not remove the fact that silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction. The next perception or reality of a serious dollar crisis will result in silver much higher than $45. Whether one holds PMs boils down to what one thinks of the dollar's future. The more threat one sees, the higher his asset percentage should be in PMs. Think of it in terms of keeping a percentage of your dollars in cash even though there are better performing options available.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around.
OK, I'll bite. How about the London Gold Pool from 1961-1968? Robert Rubin was a Goldman Sachs London operator in the LGP. So the G-7 didn't have a conspiracy in place to manipulate the gold price for those years?
If not, I suppose we have wildly different definitions of conspiracy and manipulation.
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<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around. >>
The burden of proof is on the accuser.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
Really? Try reading any of the news from reputable sources about the the Billion$ being paid by the megabanks in fines for manipulation of various markets. To think that any market they trade is immune from the manipulation is well. . . just plain stupid.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
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<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around. >>
The burden of proof is on the accuser. >>
Since when? Your claim is more wild than mine. Not an accusation, just fact. In any case I provided an example of the London Gold Pool. Now disprove it.
The big banks have been getting fines from the govt of numerous manipulations of the markets (currencies, metals, interest rates, libor, etc.). Where there's smoke....there's fire...and conspiracy. Any two banks working together would be a conspiracy....or even any two entities within the same bank. Wasn't the fact that many of these big banks knew about the Madoff scam and said nothing for years was a conspiracy of sorts? Wasn't the fact that a whistle blower nailed Madoff years ago but the SEC and FEDs failed (ie ignored) to adequately follow up on it a conspiracy? It's pretty hard to separate manipulation from conspiracy. The entire mortgage backed securities market scam was a gigantic conspiracy by the big banks who ran the derivatives. Nearly impossible I'd say to show that these items weren't conspiracies. The fact that none of these scams are going to court only adds fuel that the boyz don't want to officially labeled as conspirators. They'd rather pay the 1% fine and move on. So, how about that London Gold Pool???
<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor.
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<< <i>Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though. >>
If you want to cling to the very limited uses of gold, and the tiny portion of gold that it takes to provide those uses, as if it remotely justifies its price, so be it. But I know you are smarter than that. It IS a useless rock at the end of the day (fact not opinion) which provides nothing but ornamental utility that folks want to ascribe (because of tradition alone) some irrational amount of value to it. >>
Read the literature....not just what you've seen in the comics or on the nightly news. Brian Bloom's book is a good place to start. The simple fact that Central Banks hold >30,000 tonnes of the stuff pokes a huge hole in your thesis. The fact that hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian citizens have sizable gold jewelry, bar, and coin holdings seals it. CB's have vaulted about 20% of the world's available supply. Show me another asset class other than bonds and currencies where that may be the case. If the CB's didn't have any gold then I might be tempted to side with the "essentially useless" theory. Ironically, if the world found out tomorrow that the CB's have no gold, the price would find its way back to $1900/oz fairly quickly as all the so-called owners of rehypothecated gold hoped their seat in musical chairs was still available (1 chair - 100 players....not good odds). That's precisely why the CB's keep those 30,000 tonnes. They have their seat already. Let me know when they've sold off everything.
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<< <i>Baseball's comments about the uselessness of gold is laughable. We've had this same debate several times the past 10 years with the same results. I don't bother any more. Surf the web for the uses of gold. You could write volumes of books on its uses....and they have. I will admit there are more books on baseball though. >>
If you want to cling to the very limited uses of gold, and the tiny portion of gold that it takes to provide those uses, as if it remotely justifies its price, so be it. But I know you are smarter than that. It IS a useless rock at the end of the day (fact not opinion) which provides nothing but ornamental utility that folks want to ascribe (because of tradition alone) some irrational amount of value to it. >>
I suspect Baseball has a closet full of duct tape and WD-40.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Investment percentages in metals, stocks, real estate, small business, bonds, cash, collectibles (among other asset classes) are intended to offset each other and provide different types of returns over different time frames, such that we can be happy (relative to the all-or-nothing types, except for those rare magical geniuses, and liars who always time everything perfectly) no matter what happens, and to hedge the probabilities of certain types of risk. It's also why we buy insurance policies, even though for the most part in my experience, that has been "wasted" money as I never file claims.
To characterize partial investment in "the system" as crazy is, to me, in itself, crazy. edit to add: and baseball, I think your absolute statements about "uselessness of gold" are also philosophically empty and go to far to absurdity, in order to make your very valid philosophical point, makes your actual stance less creditable, than it would be otherwise, IMO. That said, if one's entire investment portfolio is precious metals, and their entire investment thesis is that that's the best horse to bet on, and hinges on "eventual collapse", well.. we're waiting... I've got enough gold to be fine if you're right. Do you have enough "other stuff" to be ok, to meet your financial and life goals, if you're not?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I think the comics or the nightly news probably give gold A LOT more importance than factual literature. The VAST majority of gold literally just sits there or exists in ornamental form. But maybe the "literature" says that the highest utility in life is just "being" a shiny metal. >>
Works for the super-models who get $MILLIONs per year. Baseball trophy wives do pretty well too. You probably hit it right on the head w/o knowing it. Being shiny in today's world is probably more important than anything else....and more so today than at any time in history. Looks over substance. And watching TV you'd believe it had to be true. I don't advocate it or even agree with it....but it's there.
30,000 tonnes of gold in CB vaults is no ornament. When you come up with an argument to refute CB gold, then you'll at least have a case. You can start with the London Gold Pool which Cohodk refuses to touch.
Sorry, CB gold is not just some "little" amount.
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<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor. >>
Who is happy to get even on a nominal basis? The whole point of why people put money in the stock market or investment real estate is precisely to combat the declining purchasing power. >>
Plenty of folks in Japan would be real happy to see the Nikkei at the 1989 level of 39,000. They would still be far from even, but many would tell themselves that they had recovered their investments.
<< <i>That said, if one's entire investment portfolio is precious metals, and their entire investment thesis is that that's the best horse to bet on, and hinges on "eventual collapse", well.. we're waiting... >>
What type of collapse are you referring to? A loss of the basic fabric of our society and lawlessness in the streets? No, at least in most American communities.
On the other hand, the worlds central banks are truly and unashamedly out of control trying to cover unsustainable debt and sluggish economies by tripling, quadrupling and quintupling their respective money supplies. Folks under 50 that do not have the experience of investing in a high inflation/ high interest rate environment see that forced interest rates are at or near zero and think that everything is a/ok. They are also frustrated that their bank deposits are losing at least a handful of points each year for over half a decade.
Really a horrible way to rig the markets, but you have to play the hand dealt I suppose.
"""Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd."""
Pick up a small piece of granite and ask your dentist to fashion a crown out of it. Instead of a nice gold bracelet, hand your lady a handful of sedimentary rocks on Valentines day and see how comfy the sofa is for a week. An ounce of gold is malleable enough to be stretched to the Moon. Try that will aluminum.
Yes, your position is absurd.
<< <i>Gold may just sit there, but kingdoms rise and fall at its altar... >>
Pretty much so. Gold's price is tracked minute by minute on most every major financial news site in the world. Every little fluctuation in gold prices is reflected in world currencies, and vice versa. Those facts alone say that mankind is wasting a lot hours in a "useless" endeavor every minute of the day. Every pawn and gold shop in the world probably has some. Central Banks hoard 30,000 tonnes of it...or about 11 years of world production. Very strange behavior for a useless item. Why don't they get rid of it as Baseball suggests? The world has been off any semblance of a gold standard/window since 1974. Yet here we are the same amount of gold in the world's bank vaults.
Nearly every married American carries a little bit of it on their ring figure. The Swiss people recently had a vote on whether or not to increase their gold reserves to 20%. The amendment was defeated. But, the fact that 22% of that nation voted for it would suggest gold was far from useless. 22% is not a useless number. Rather than useless, gold seems to be invaluable as nothing better has come along in 5,000 years to replace it. It's either that or mankind is as dumb as a rock, or just maybe, gold is not just a rock. Paintings and Art are "useless." We should stop all artistic works and ban them! After all, they are just scribblings on a canvas or a different form of cheap wood. While we're at it, let's get rid of the American pastime, baseball. Talk about a waste of time? Players juiced up on whatever chasing after a ball that's hit with a stick? That's as dumb as collecting tulips.
Still no reply from anyone on LGP or CB gold storage? Anyone see the irony in a coin collector calling gold useless? It's priceless. It's like a bank robber calling a jewel thief a crook.
I'll be back in 2015 when Baseball dusts off this flawed argument and trots it out for the 2015 season. I wonder if he's going to pick up any high draft picks to bolster the argument? But I'd rather not waste another hour of my life in 2015 as I did in 2014. Let's just book mark this thread.
<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
I really admire the tenacity, even if the logic is flawed.
L'chaim my friends.
See you all on the other side of the holidays.
You mean "ductile", and no, check your math, you're off by a few ounces, even for the finest gold wire possible. We'll ignore tensile strength of the resulting thread for this fun idea.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Reading and writing, and looking for things to read and thinking of things to write, are a form of entertainment. At least we aren't throwing electronic birds at electronic structures.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
From How to Own Precious Metals
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
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<< <i>.....Really, I want to see PROOF of some sort of coordinated MANIPULATION. The arrogance of conspiracists is truly amazing. >>
I want to see PROOF of some sort that there is no coordinated NON-MANIPULATION. Plenty of arrogance to go around. >>
The burden of proof is on the accuser. >>
Since when? Your claim is more wild than mine. Not an accusation, just fact. In any case I provided an example of the London Gold Pool. Now disprove it.
The big banks have been getting fines from the govt of numerous manipulations of the markets (currencies, metals, interest rates, libor, etc.). Where there's smoke....there's fire...and conspiracy. Any two banks working together would be a conspiracy....or even any two entities within the same bank. Wasn't the fact that many of these big banks knew about the Madoff scam and said nothing for years was a conspiracy of sorts? Wasn't the fact that a whistle blower nailed Madoff years ago but the SEC and FEDs failed (ie ignored) to adequately follow up on it a conspiracy? It's pretty hard to separate manipulation from conspiracy. The entire mortgage backed securities market scam was a gigantic conspiracy by the big banks who ran the derivatives. Nearly impossible I'd say to show that these items weren't conspiracies. The fact that none of these scams are going to court only adds fuel that the boyz don't want to officially labeled as conspirators. They'd rather pay the 1% fine and move on. So, how about that London Gold Pool??? >>
So me how exactly this manipulation occurred. More specifically, show me where these assets would be priced if there was no "manipulation". What exactly was the effect of this manipulation? I contend that prices for assets--ALL ASSETS-- would be very close to where they are now. So scream manipulation and use it as a crutch for poor analysis or emotional attachment.
Stocks go up, stocks go down. PMs go up, PMs go down. Real estate goes up, real estate goes down. This has been happening since before QE, derivatives, Madoff, aliens, ect.
How about that London Silver Fix-----end it and bam, prices drop 25%. Yup, maybe silver was manipulated----to high.
Quit using manipulation as an excuse for PMs or the stock market not doing what YOU think they should do.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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<< <i> silver and gold remain to be good hedges against dollar destruction.
As does any asset priced in dollars. And if the stock market tanks, just as silver tanked, someday it will also rebound and all will look like geniuses again. >>
That is why many investors tolerate unabated inflation. Even though the purchasing power of the dollar declines sharply, we are happy on a nominal basis to get even. One of the basic flaws of the typical investor. >>
Who is happy to get even on a nominal basis? The whole point of why people put money in the stock market or investment real estate is precisely to combat the declining purchasing power. >>
Plenty of folks in Japan would be real happy to see the Nikkei at the 1989 level of 39,000. They would still be far from even, but many would tell themselves that they had recovered their investments. >>
You keep bringing up how terrible it is to be Japanese......why is that wherever I go on vacation--big European and US cities and US National Parks, I see bus loads of Japanese tourists?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it. >>
Bonds like deflation. And/Or are you saying the 80 year inflation will pop?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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<< <i>Once again, I realize that gold has some real limited uses. But nothing that is either substantive or remotely necessary to mankind. I don't think the position that gold is a useless rock is at all absurd. >>
It's ultimate usefulness will be apparent to you when the bond bubble pops. And it will - deflation will see to it. >>
Bonds like deflation. And/Or are you saying the 80 year inflation will pop? >>
Worsening deflation will pop many remaining asset bubbles. It has been picking them off one by one for the past few years. Bonds will be among the last. I believe the FED will let equities suffer before allowing bonds to be hit. Unpublished goal of the FED is to protect government debt instruments.
If bonds, particularly corporate bonds, are not in a bubble they have no worry.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>You keep bringing up how terrible it is to be Japanese......why is that wherever I go on vacation--big European and US cities and US National Parks, I see bus loads of Japanese tourists? >>
Japanese folks are doing fine but economically the nation is a wreck. Those that ignore it can exist in a blissful state, at least until it is time to cash in those 1/2% 10 year notes and either take a substantial haircut or get paid of with an overproduced and sliding Yen.
I use their stock market as an example of extreme excess which has caused a multi generational time to make a nominal recovery. Some folks here seem to think that the stock market will always come back. Not always.
Can you cite one example in our nation's past when it hasn't?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
synonyms for "useless"
In essence you had stated and suggested all along that gold is worthless and useless. You'll note that worthless is on that above list. Very few of those words describe gold's function. Your argument is as baseless this year as it was last year....and will be next year. Central Banks keep 30,000 tonnes of gold on hand because it IS an alternative currency....probably the 1st or 2nd most important currency in the world. With your argument if gold is worthless then so is every currency on earth. And the list spreads from there. These type of "gold is worthless" rants often show up around major bottoms. In Sept-Oct 2008 the financial blogs were littered with them.
Still no replies on the London Gold Pool which was my example of a blatant conspiracy/manipulation? Cohodk asks for an example and I provide it. He has skirted around this one. The G7 ran the London Gold Pool in the 1960's to keep the international exchange price of gold down from 1961-1968. They expended 3,000 tonnes of physical gold towards that end. By 1968 they ran out of easy gold to sell and disbanded. During that same time from the price of silver more than doubled. Gold was kept pretty flat. Shortly after they disbanded the price of gold peaked around $44 in 1969 (25% increase). By later 1970 it was off and running again. The 7 leading nations of the world working as a team to handle the gold price during the commodity/inflation boom of the middle 1960's. Nope, that's not manipulation. Free markets at work.
Cohodk is too obsessed with the word "manipulation." It's a fact of life in today's markets. Everyone is aware of this. And I've never said the world won't continue spinning the same way with such manipulation. He asked for an example and I provided it. The world continued along just fine in the 1960's and 1970's before and after the LGP. It doesn't change the fact that there WAS manipulation and there still IS manipulation. We all just have to factor this into our daily lives and work with it or around it. Sure, the stock market will always come back to life after it gets obliterated during a boom/bust cycle. No different than how a forest regenerates after a fire. There will always be companies that survive the attack and new ones to replace the ones that didn't. Boom/bust cycles are a fact of nature. They've just been made much worse the past 100 years via central bank interventions.
[yoos-lis]
adjective
1.
of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile:
It is useless to reason with him.
2.
without useful qualities; of no practical good:
a useless person; a useless gadget..
Nothing here that applies to gold. With Baseball logic, mankind is useless and worthless...along with everything he has produced. The world was just fine without him for hundreds of millions of years and will be fine long after he is gone. The earth is a gnat among the solar system and universe, one sudden impact away from annihilation. It's not a matter of if, but only when. At that time baseball games, fiat currencies, gold, the stock markets, etc. all won't matter much. And to think some "useless dumb rock" floating out in space, containing a crap load of gold can do this to us. Ironic isn't it? Man's complete history is in the hands of a dumb rock. For whatever reason we just can't seem to get away from dumb rocks.
<< <i>What kingdom has fallen because of gold in any of our lifetimes? >>
You don't follow history do you? Some people still in this hobby have been around since 1923. Remember the Weimar inflation? Two of the reasons Germany had no protection from a currency attack was because they had inadequate gold reserves and the fact that the winners of WW1 purposely failed to re-establish the provision for gold "real bills," the back bone of any truly working gold standard. The lack of it affected the ability to trade. Any gold standard in effect after WW1 was lacking this and was therefore ineffective. No surprise it all finally collapsed into a heap by the early 1930's. Gold was partly responsible for Weimar. What about the 1997-1999 Asian monetary crisis? Why did England have to sell off half their gold reserves from 1999-2001? You think they did that to get rid of some "useless" gold? What nation(s) on the brink of financial collapse needed to be rescued from faulty financial controls in 1999-2001 via gold? They don't call it Brown's Bottom for nothing. I can cite more examples but these are the 2 most obvious to me.
You also fail to understand that a world of unbacked/zero gold currencies is only 40 yrs old. That's a tiny bit of time to render judgment on the great fiat experiment, especially since we have yet to see the regression to the mean for all this uncontrolled spending and debt that has accumulated during this current 120 yr economic cycle (111 years of it under FED and central bank controls). If the currencies fail, the kingdom essentially fails. The 20th century is full of dozens of hyper-inflationary events that essentially killed a number of "kingdoms." They all came back to life, but only after being clinically dead for a period of time. People's life-savings were erased. So you could say, the lack of controls on fiat currencies (ie no backing) and any subsequent failures is indeed due to gold. There's a reason the US still claims to hold 8133 tonnes of gold....and it's not because it's worthless...it's because it is critical to the role of the world's currency.....both symbolic and functional. It's not going anywhere.