A complicated 1903 proof Indian
rhedden
Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is a coin that I recently bought from Mike Printz at HJB that is a complicated little animal.
1) It has an obvious, butt-ugly carbon spot on the rim. Many people would not touch it for fear that the spot will get worse with age. (The little spot in front of the face doesn't exist, and the light hairlines are on the plastic. Fields are real clean.)
2) It has wild rainbow toning, with magenta tints on the obverse and arcs of pink, green, and orange on the reverse. Mike had a hard time photographing the colors, but they're excellent.
3) It sure looks like a cameo to me, but PCGS didn't give it the designation. They're strict on this date, which is almost never found cameo, with a total of only 3 pieces graded Cameo in all grades combined. I've not seen a 1903 proof cent with this much contrast in person before.
Now I truly hate that carbon spot, but this coin is in the 66+ RB, possible Cameo category without it, and I'm not ever going to pay $8,000 for a coin graded Cameo. I liked this one for $500 and as a PCGS PR64 RB.
So what do you think- a good buy, or am I buried in it forever because of that darned spot?
1) It has an obvious, butt-ugly carbon spot on the rim. Many people would not touch it for fear that the spot will get worse with age. (The little spot in front of the face doesn't exist, and the light hairlines are on the plastic. Fields are real clean.)
2) It has wild rainbow toning, with magenta tints on the obverse and arcs of pink, green, and orange on the reverse. Mike had a hard time photographing the colors, but they're excellent.
3) It sure looks like a cameo to me, but PCGS didn't give it the designation. They're strict on this date, which is almost never found cameo, with a total of only 3 pieces graded Cameo in all grades combined. I've not seen a 1903 proof cent with this much contrast in person before.
Now I truly hate that carbon spot, but this coin is in the 66+ RB, possible Cameo category without it, and I'm not ever going to pay $8,000 for a coin graded Cameo. I liked this one for $500 and as a PCGS PR64 RB.
So what do you think- a good buy, or am I buried in it forever because of that darned spot?
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Comments
see what they do
sounds to me like this spot will forever distract from your happiness
probably should cut your loss...sell it and move on but with lesson learned...as if you need that
you're pretty savy
<< <i>I did not know they did "spot service" on copper. Is it true? I sent some spotted proof Lib Nickels and they dipped them, so I have to say I'd be somewhat concerned. >>
let others chime in
you could ask rick snow his take on how to proceed
copper is tough on forgiveness
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Killer red 1903 United States. That alone should give it a cameo
That said, even at $500, that big of a carbon spot would turn me off.
I would likely be out at $300 even with that grade and even if it is as wild as you mention....which, having watched you for years and interacting even a little, I trust your judgment on even without it showing in the pics.
For what you have with other coins, $500 isn't that much to be buried in because you are likely either not buried, by people that don't think like I do and like the cameo look enough to overlook the carbon spot, or because you would only be out a couple of hundred to people who think like I do.
As for PCGS restoration on copper? Mmmmmmm.....good luck with ANYONE restoring copper...much less a proof in that condition.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It most likely could not be restored to perfection, as it appears to have eaten in to metal - just made less noticeable.
But it may be worth trying, because of all the other attributes you mentioned.
I would send it in for restoration if it were mine.
Have PCGS restore your coin.
peacockcoins
<< <i>I think that's an attractive and eye appealing coin with very nice color and I believe its positive attributes far outweigh its negatives. I also would not let that coin get within 5 miles of the "coin restorers" at any grading service or elsewhere. >>
Agreed.
That baby sure looks like a CAM to me! I would have that spot taken off. Even if it is not perfect, it is on the rim and certainly would be less noticeable.
PCGS does not designate 'CAM' on RB proof indian cents. And, I am going to guess, but I am 99.9% sure this coin doesn't have a sticker due to the carbon at 2 o'clock. That would kill it for me. And no, PCGS can't get that spot off. I would check their (HJB) return policy.
Edited to add: Realone is right- the spot is just a black dot in real life, and the large images make it look like a volcano.
The debate about removing a spot (or not) is interesting. Hopefully, someone from PCGS can stop by and let us know if they would even attempt it on a proof copper coin. I'd hate to get the coin back without the spot - and without the toning. But more likely, it would come back with nothing done to it.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think that's an attractive and eye appealing coin with very nice color and I believe its positive attributes far outweigh its negatives. I also would not let that coin get within 5 miles of the "coin restorers" at any grading service or elsewhere. >>
Agreed. >>
Me too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
complete their quest. Years ago I NEVER would consider a problem or "details" coin, but like a fine wine I've mellowed with age.
able to finish my collection without 2 or 3 "details" coins. Even with that, there's varying degrees of what a problem is. Your coin, at least to me, is very attractive and I'd love to have
it even though I don't collect copper. You just have to get comfortable and accept the best you can do is all you can do. I think if you want to sell it there will be a home for it.
Edit: Forgot to say, I'd leave it original and not mess with the carbon spot.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think that's an attractive and eye appealing coin with very nice color and I believe its positive attributes far outweigh its negatives. I also would not let that coin get within 5 miles of the "coin restorers" at any grading service or elsewhere. >>
Agreed. >>
If you only care about the cameo, then spot treatment is an option IMO. But if you care about the color I personally would not risk having anything done to THIS coin. Experience talking
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
which they removed "the haze" with positive results and the coins toning were unaffected
as to the spots he had...i think they had neutralized them
by the way
i'm not too picky and would be a happy camper with such example
but upon resale it would be a disputed issue to you or heirs so i'd note that with the coin
"tell um to pound sand if not happy with price desired"
<< <i>Man am I getting tired of the supposed need to acquire perfection.
What you have here is a 97+% gorgeous coin with approx. a less than 3% defect, that really isn't so bad. And I am being picky since it is in the denticles it is much less bothersome, now if it was in the center I would then admit it becomes a bad focal point but we are looking at a photo the size of a desert plate which exaggerates it. Sure it is also on the obv and not the rev but imho it looks like a harmless toning spot so at least nothing is hurting the coin and again being within the denticles is fine.
The coin is beautiful and high grade so for $500 a steal imo.
Edited to add when you go to sell it , if you do, just be prepared to hear most bringing up the spot which will have an effect on price until then enjoy the gorgeously toned IHC! You are obviously a purist and you definitely have my respect. >>
What's the world coming to that I agree with RO.
I knew this coin would stir up trouble when I posted it, but I didn't realize how polarizing it would be. This is an internet forum, but just take a step back and picture coin collectors getting into a brawl at a show over a flyspeck that landed on a penny 100 years ago. Sometimes we have to laugh at ourselves a bit.
When I was a kid, I found a 1915 Lincoln that had black on the front and it was nice RB on the reverse. Being a kid, I think I must have used alcohol, lo and behold the black dissolved and left me with a nice Lincoln. It was probably ink.
I knew it would happen.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I think that's an attractive and eye appealing coin with very nice color and I believe its positive attributes far outweigh its negatives. I also would not let that coin get within 5 miles of the "coin restorers" at any grading service or elsewhere. >>
+2.
$500 vs. $8,000 I don't see how that's a burial.
If every choice/gem 19th century copper coin was considered "trash" because of copper spotting, >90% of the coins in holders would be gone. I once owned an 1866 PF67 CAM seated half that was a monster orig toner except for a small blob of carbon right in Miss Liberty's lap. Other than that it was magnificent and near perfect. While the coin was not salable as a solid 67 because of that spot, it didn't make the coin trash.
<< <i>High 3D magnification of the spot is a must that will reveal its structure, how crusty it is and possibly patina underneath. The spot might be lightened but not totally removed as there is usually an entry point from within the surface of the coin, much like how the mentioned volcano starts from the center of the earth. From a book I have, they claim that most of the copper carbonate forms on top of the patina of a coin but there will be a tiny area where it broke through the patina before it expanded into what you see. I have removed several spots with a sliver of a toothpick where you have a very fine point. Don't use metal, like a needle, I've learned from but have had coins certify after such a mistake. And you need a very steady hand, which I don't have anymore. So yeah, it's quite possible to do something with the spot. But depends on the nature of what caused it and how the spot formed.
Leo >>
This is the right advice if you wish to deal with a spot on copper. A wood toothpick(or rose thorn) will scrape away a substantial amount of the spot if it is a virgin spot!
In that respect, it's a serious game and that's where it gets complicated spending.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Don't let the coin conservators strip this coin. The whole coin will be affected and your toning will be gone. >>
This spot won't come off. Don't destroy the nice color by having someone attempt removal of it. You'll end up with a washed out, unnatural looking coin and the spot will still be there.
Curious...what is the other dark spot that looks like it's in the field? The one that "isn't there"? Something on the holder?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>Man am I getting tired of the supposed need to acquire perfection.
What you have here is a 97+% gorgeous coin with approx. a less than 3% defect, that really isn't so bad. And I am being picky since it is in the denticles it is much less bothersome, now if it was in the center I would then admit it becomes a bad focal point but we are looking at a photo the size of a desert plate which exaggerates it. Sure it is also on the obv and not the rev but imho it looks like a harmless toning spot so at least nothing is hurting the coin and again being within the denticles is fine.
The coin is beautiful and high grade so for $500 a steal imo.
Edited to add when you go to sell it , if you do, just be prepared to hear most bringing up the spot which will have an effect on price until then enjoy the gorgeously toned IHC! You are obviously a purist and you definitely have my respect. >>
What's the world coming to that I agree with RO. >>
You find it strange? +2
You can go "Yeah, but....." or you can go "YAY.... pretty coin, some distraction" Your only downside is that others don't know the date. Your enjoyment is assured.
Does the spot kill the coin?
Kill?
<< <i>
<< <i>Man am I getting tired of the supposed need to acquire perfection.
What you have here is a 97+% gorgeous coin with approx. a less than 3% defect, that really isn't so bad. And I am being picky since it is in the denticles it is much less bothersome, now if it was in the center I would then admit it becomes a bad focal point but we are looking at a photo the size of a desert plate which exaggerates it. Sure it is also on the obv and not the rev but imho it looks like a harmless toning spot so at least nothing is hurting the coin and again being within the denticles is fine.
The coin is beautiful and high grade so for $500 a steal imo.
Edited to add when you go to sell it , if you do, just be prepared to hear most bringing up the spot which will have an effect on price until then enjoy the gorgeously toned IHC! You are obviously a purist and you definitely have my respect. >>
What's the world coming to that I agree with RO. >>
And if we can get RYK and AnkurJ to chime in, agreeing too, it would be kumbaya time.
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CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
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