Opinions Needed - Jefferson 1942-D Over ???

BigDowgie

An interesting find by another collector. I have not seen it in-hand, but the pictures are pretty nice. This is a well circulated 1942-D Jefferson Nickel. There is something there, but what? Another D or an S????

TwoSides2aCoin

Looks like it's over an "S", to me. It's a sweet find, and likely a tedious search, I think

grip

Sure looks like it. D/S.

tincup

Does look like a likely candidate for a D/S. Is this a dime? I don't have my cherrypickers guide in front of me right now, so not sure if it's a listed one or not.

CaptHenway

Looks like PMD to me.

BigDowgie

This is a Jefferson Nickel.

PMD = Post Mint Damage? Please explain why you would say this would be helpful.

keets

my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin.

Overdate

At first glance it looks like there could be a rotated "S" underneath the "D", but the bottom of the "S" (below and to the left of the "D") is much thicker than the top (in the center of the "D"). I suppose a mint employee could have smoothed out the bottom portion to make it blend in more with the "D". Something like that was done to the "6" on later die states of my avatar to make it less obvious that two different sizes of the digit were present.

I can't quite see how post-mint damage would produce raised areas within and adjacent to the mint mark.

johnny9434

<< <i>my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin. >>

thats what it it looks like to me as well.

grip

A well place die chip inside the D, then flattened ?

Overdate

It's more than a well-placed die chip. There's the bottom of what looks like a rotated "S" under the bottom of the "D", and what could be the top serif of an "S" to the right of the lower right side of the "D". Too much coincidence to my way of thinking. Remember, this was wartime and quality control sometimes took a back seat to more urgent matters. It's plausible that one or more unneeded "S" dies were shipped to Denver after the Mint decided not to strike pre-war composition nickels that year, and a "D" mintmark was struck over an "S" mintmark intentionally (as apparently was the case in 1938 and again in 1955).

Overdate

BigDowgie

I don't see how PMD is at play here. I do not see how any post mint damage/striking would have caused the raised metal inside and outside the "D" so full and symmetrically positioned.

The owner is going to send it to James Wiles for his observations first. I'll keep you posted. It may make its way to other experts for their opinions.

ms70

I think there's 3 mint marks there.

Clearly the D. Then what looks like the S. but inside the D you can see something that looks like it's running vertically through the S.

Maybe another D or a doubling of the D that's supposed to be there.

CaptHenway

<< <i>my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin. >>



This.

WoodenJefferson

Deformation here...flattened and moved metal. I don't think this is an overdate at all. Will be interested in the pro's analysis.

gonzer

Way too much metal movement, I'm in the PMD camp.

tincup

On second look, that D certainly appears flattened... and where it looks like the bottom of an 'S' may actually be a light gouge. So PMD is certainly at play here... but still interesting that there is the clear bit of metal inside the D and also on the right side of it. Is there a picture of the entire coin?

DIMEMAN

I'm with Big Dog......I don't see how this could be PMD. It's a D/S with anything outside that could be removed at the mint...was removed.

Nice find.

grip

Interesting. And would like to know the outcome.

crazyhounddog

VERY cool!!!! Looks like a d/s with my eyes.

crazyhounddog

It gotta be a D/S !! At least this is what I see with my eyes. Very cool too.

stephunter

A 42 dated coin with an underlying S in that location would be something. Only one known?

lasvegasteddy

looks d/s to me too

TopographicOceans

I don't see the S so I'd guess PMD

CoinZip

It may help if we can see a photo of the entire coin too.... looks interesting.

JRocco

I'm in the PMD crowd also.

lasvegasteddy

so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah

JRocco

<< <i>so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah >>



It actually looks like a D over the star ship ENTERPRISE if you really want to know what I see.

lasvegasteddy

<< <i>

<< <i>so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah >>



It actually looks like a D over the star ship ENTERPRISE if you really want to know what I see.
>>



where's notlogical with his spock avatar when ya need him right...

bolivarshagnasty

No way is the metal pushed up in the loop. Looks like a D over a rotated S to me. If
so, unique?

ricko

Looks to me like a die chip inside the D and PMD outside.... Cheers, RickO

FredWeinberg

The D is smashed, and the
metal moved or was moved
by the 'hit' into the middle of
the D.


It's a damaged mintmark, in my opinion.

BigDowgie

I still struggle with Mint Mark Damage.

CaptHenway

Wishful thinking does not make it so.

BigDowgie

I'm one that tries to see a logical and plausible way this could be PMD. How could a hit to this small mint mark create such a precise indent to the interior of this small "D" and cause metal to protrude up from what would be the flat field around the "D". All I have to say is h-m-m-m-m, what are the chances of that.

keets

How could a hit to this small mint mark create such a precise indent to the interior of this small "D" and cause metal to protrude up from what would be the flat field around the "D".

luck?? pure chance??

a line from "Snow Falling on Cedars" says Accidents rule every corner of the Universe, except maybe the chambers of the Human Heart and that seems very applicable here. I would suppose that when the collector looked at this coin he noticed that the mm looked unusual and checked it closer due to the D/Horizontal D Variety, then wishful imagination took place. as much as this date is looked at for the Variety the odds of a unique omm now being discovered are so astronomical as to strain credulity. there is ample evidence in the large pictures to bolster the PMD suspicion, marks which seem to indicate lines going toward the center of the mm and further damage at the top of the mm. whatever struck it was probably heavy and caused more damage than what we can now see. the coin circulated quite a bit and no doubt has worn down most of the damage.

JMHO, of course.

GrumpyEd

It's post strike damage.
One sharp hit in the center of the D lifted part of the lower curve up, a second hit sheared and moved metal and created the lower part.

BigDowgie

keets and others, I like the discussion and observations. keets, I even had to look up "credulity" to make sure you weren't throwing me an undercover insult!

I don't think I've let me imagination take hold here. I'm looking and listening to all the opinions and am not totally convinced either way yet, but still lean toward the RMP/OMM. Ok, let's take the path that there was one (or multiple, as one speculated) precise, hard hit to the mint mark causing this to extreme distortion of metal (nickel) to such an extent, I would have some expectation to see some trauma to the obverse of the coin near the "Y" and Star where the mint mark is on the reverse? Yes, the coin is well worn, but the rim and other devices appear to be quite normal. In my state of credulity, I just can't conjure up what object, so tiny and hardened, that could shape nickel is such a fashion.

bolivarshagnasty

Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. How about this logic? If the metal was displaced from the original D to cause the "appearance" of an S in the loop, wouldn't there be a parting line at the base of the possible S in the loop? In other words, with a high powered loop or microscope, can you see if the metal in the loop is flowing up as struck, or as others have suggested, shows a separation line where the metal was actually moved over to the center of the loop from the hit on the D? What say you Large Dowgie?

BigDowgie

Shag, you make a good point questioning how that center structure was created. Does the metal look pushed over or is the metal flowing up into the die. Another area to explain is the appearance of separation at the bottom of the "D" and the other structure protruding below. In my opinion, if a trauma to the coin with such a force to move nickel in this fashion, I would not expect to see the remains of a normal "D" outline in this area.

seanq

<< <i>Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. >>



The number of people who have looked at mint marks on 1942-D nickels and not found this variety outnumbers the number of people who set sail for the New World and did find it by a factor of several million, but I am happy to know that you are willing to concede things like the earth being round when presented with irrefutable evidence.


Sean Reynolds

CaptHenway

WHat Sean says. The "extra metal" on this coin is so huge that if there were more like it out there somebody would have found it by now.

It will be treated by error and variety collectors as post mint damage until another one just like it is found. None just like it has been found in the last 72 years.

bolivarshagnasty

<< <i>

<< <i>Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. >>



The number of people who have looked at mint marks on 1942-D nickels and not found this variety outnumbers the number if people who set sail for the New World and did find it by a factor of several million, but I ask happy to know that you are willing to concede things like the earth being round when presented with irrefutable evidence.


Sean Reynolds >>



I have a lot of trust in the opinion of James Wiles and will concede to his findings. He has disproven a number of questionable "varieties" over the years including one I sent him years ago. Keep us informed Big Dowgie!

seanq, With all of the people who have looked at the 1942-D Jefferson mintmarks, what were the odds that I would find this example in the middle of the Georgia Numismatic show in Dalton, Ga. 9 years ago. Gave $50 for it.

BigDowgie

Shag, that was a dream cherry pick! They are still out there to be had! At a recent show in the area, I met a guy that pulled this big one also. He may have paid less than you did? My guess at grade is MS65FS! No joke! I'm waiting to see a new one hit the Pops soon, too bad it won't be in my set!

We'll keep you all posted on the opinion of Mr. Wiles. Thanks for the discussion.

silverpop

send it to PCGS and have them look it over

and then post the results

BigDowgie

Shag,

The 1942-D/Hor D graded MS65FS and it's the real deal! I'd still take your Cherry, if I was the finder!

No word on the 1942-D/?? Hope soon.

Shamika

Sure looks like a D/S.

georgiacop50

<< <i>a line from "Snow Falling on Cedars" says Accidents rule every corner of the Universe, except maybe the chambers of the Human Heart >>



Wonderful book! Ho-hum movie though...

keyman64

Interesting find. I can clearly see it being PMD, D/S or even PMD with a die chip tossed in for good measure. There is only one sure way to settle it as far as I can see, unfortunately. Be on the look out for Mint State examples with the same characteristics. That is really the only clear way to quiet the PMD folks....then it will become an argument of only die chips and D/S. Good luck. It is still pretty neat and compelling to look at.

Treashunt

<< <i>Looks like PMD to me. >>



ditto