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Local coin show report (sorry....no food shots ;) )
Bochiman
Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
Skipped up north for a show in between my son's tournament games today.
Hadn't been to a show for awhile and was jonesing.
Been to the show (Everett, WA) a few times before. Liked it. Small, brings out some club members that sell some of their items that are truly "fresh", but still has some local dealers.
Well, even just after noon arrival today, there was still plenty of parking.
Inside, there was a stamp dealer or two, a currency dealer or two, and a few darkside dealers. Probably 10-15 lightside (US) dealers. Some "normal" ones (ie....they set up most local shows and/or have a show) and a few that are collectors and club members that set up only at this show or maybe also the Boeing Show in January.
I circled around 5-6 times, REALLY wanting to buy something. I came close. Just nothing talked to me. I asked to see about 3-4 coins but, in the light, they didn't call to me either.
Found some prices to be still way higher than I thought they should, and found others to be reasonable, if I wanted the coin. Varied from dealer to dealer.
One dealer (Lou), who deals in a lot of EAC items, was super fair, as usual, and, when asked about a 1/10 GAE, looked up spot ($1189) and priced it at $120. The guy asking (and buying) was actually rendered speechless for a moment, prompting Lou to ask "you ok? what were you expecting to pay?". Guy said "about $20 more than that" and Lou just told him no, that's what spot is and I try to be fair. I talked to him after, as I have purchased from him before, and Lou knows the average markup on these above spot. He knew what he was doing. He just said he wanted to be fair and make the guy happy (and, he is mainly EAC, so he was fine selling the gold like that).
At another dealer's table, next to one I was browsing at, a dealer was explaining to a potential SAE purchaser HOW he sets his price for them and how it all works. For those that are local, this was "Snidely Whiplash".
Here's how it went, and I did find it interesting enough to turn and watch (I was about 3-4' away and he knew I was listening/watching)....
Customer - hmmm....how much for the silver eagles?
SW - I sell them for $27 each. The rolls have 20 each.
Customer - hemming and hawing a little....he didn't appear to be someone entrenched in this area and was just starting out or at least was genuinely interested but wasn't sure of the pricing....he then asked if the USMint makes them or who does...
SW - Look, here's how it works. The USMint makes these (points to proofs) but a 3rd party puts them together with the packaging. With these (points to the NCLT Bullion pieces), they make them and then sell them. There are only 6 dealers allowed to buy them (referencing ARs).
SW - They come in boxes of 500. These are called monster boxes. That's how I get them.
Customer - ahhhh. Volume discount?
SW - not really. Say silver is $20 per ounce (ummm....wait a minute! Silver is UNDER $17/oz right now!!!!), the mint adds on $3.50. That's almost $24/oz right there. Then, that dealer, that I buy from, that is one of the 6 the mint will sell to, adds $1 or $2 to each one. Then, I have to pay for FedEx to get them. That's another $28 or so.
Customer is nodding....
SW - so, I need to sell each of them at $27 whether single or in a roll (I've seen him give a roll discount before, but customer was new, and one could tell didn't know, and was just nodding).
Customer left, without buying anything from his table, a few minutes later to go to the snack bar. I didn't talk to him. Kind of wanted to, but wouldn't have done it in front of a dealer, and I had to leave and head to my son's next game.
I just found it interesting that he was quoting $27/SAE and, for "illustration purposes" started silver spot at $20/oz and also used the FedEx cost as if it was a lot when, if it is $28 for a monster box, as I have no idea what it really is, then that isn't much per coin when divided by 500 ($0.06 each coin, or $1.20 per roll). So, by his math, starting backwards to see profit expectations..... ($27(selling price)-$2(AR markup)-$3.50(USMint markup to AR)-$0.06 (FedEx price)-$spot price (he quoted $20 for an example but it is under $17, so let's use that number) = $4.44/SAE.
Not a huge profit, but not too shabby for an SAE......to me, it was just interesting in how he played the "assume silver spot was $20" to justify his pricing....
Also, a dealer had books of raw coins that I looked through. From what I saw, I think Franklins get played with the most for ATing attempts. A couple were double-sided toners. One side looked pretty good. The other, not so much and cemented "AT" in my mind. Didn't see Roosies/Kennedys/Washies/Morgans/Peace played with in the same way...though I am sure they are all played with at some point in the market.
Since I was in, and out, in less than an hour, I didn't see any forum members I knew and just talked to a few dealers I knew as I breezed through.
Oh yeah....saw some 1985 photo certs ("Numismatic something something" was the company...similar to ones I have seen before but not same company I recall). 2 morgans and 1 WLH. One morgan looked really washed out and not really like the photo...which was showing a coin with some toning. The other looked right. The WLH looked right. Submission value on the holder had "Submitter value: $500" for each coin. Wow! Is that what they were back in 1985? They were all marked "MS65" (1881-S, 1880-S, morgans, and 1946-S WLH). Dealer said they were purchased from Heritage prior (didn't ask if it was recent or awhile ago) and that he didn't think any of them were more than a MS63 and he was pricing them as such....except for the one he "cracked out" and submitted. 1893, toned, Morgan that PCGS graded MS64+ (nice score!).
All in all - I liked going since I hadn't been to a show for a long time, but I am trying to be a little more focused in what I purchase, and so this show didn't even come close to yielding anything for me and cost me a few hours of driving and a few gallons of gas.
Maybe, if any other forum member attended and made a purchase, they can show the coin(s) that "got away" from me
Hadn't been to a show for awhile and was jonesing.
Been to the show (Everett, WA) a few times before. Liked it. Small, brings out some club members that sell some of their items that are truly "fresh", but still has some local dealers.
Well, even just after noon arrival today, there was still plenty of parking.
Inside, there was a stamp dealer or two, a currency dealer or two, and a few darkside dealers. Probably 10-15 lightside (US) dealers. Some "normal" ones (ie....they set up most local shows and/or have a show) and a few that are collectors and club members that set up only at this show or maybe also the Boeing Show in January.
I circled around 5-6 times, REALLY wanting to buy something. I came close. Just nothing talked to me. I asked to see about 3-4 coins but, in the light, they didn't call to me either.
Found some prices to be still way higher than I thought they should, and found others to be reasonable, if I wanted the coin. Varied from dealer to dealer.
One dealer (Lou), who deals in a lot of EAC items, was super fair, as usual, and, when asked about a 1/10 GAE, looked up spot ($1189) and priced it at $120. The guy asking (and buying) was actually rendered speechless for a moment, prompting Lou to ask "you ok? what were you expecting to pay?". Guy said "about $20 more than that" and Lou just told him no, that's what spot is and I try to be fair. I talked to him after, as I have purchased from him before, and Lou knows the average markup on these above spot. He knew what he was doing. He just said he wanted to be fair and make the guy happy (and, he is mainly EAC, so he was fine selling the gold like that).
At another dealer's table, next to one I was browsing at, a dealer was explaining to a potential SAE purchaser HOW he sets his price for them and how it all works. For those that are local, this was "Snidely Whiplash".
Here's how it went, and I did find it interesting enough to turn and watch (I was about 3-4' away and he knew I was listening/watching)....
Customer - hmmm....how much for the silver eagles?
SW - I sell them for $27 each. The rolls have 20 each.
Customer - hemming and hawing a little....he didn't appear to be someone entrenched in this area and was just starting out or at least was genuinely interested but wasn't sure of the pricing....he then asked if the USMint makes them or who does...
SW - Look, here's how it works. The USMint makes these (points to proofs) but a 3rd party puts them together with the packaging. With these (points to the NCLT Bullion pieces), they make them and then sell them. There are only 6 dealers allowed to buy them (referencing ARs).
SW - They come in boxes of 500. These are called monster boxes. That's how I get them.
Customer - ahhhh. Volume discount?
SW - not really. Say silver is $20 per ounce (ummm....wait a minute! Silver is UNDER $17/oz right now!!!!), the mint adds on $3.50. That's almost $24/oz right there. Then, that dealer, that I buy from, that is one of the 6 the mint will sell to, adds $1 or $2 to each one. Then, I have to pay for FedEx to get them. That's another $28 or so.
Customer is nodding....
SW - so, I need to sell each of them at $27 whether single or in a roll (I've seen him give a roll discount before, but customer was new, and one could tell didn't know, and was just nodding).
Customer left, without buying anything from his table, a few minutes later to go to the snack bar. I didn't talk to him. Kind of wanted to, but wouldn't have done it in front of a dealer, and I had to leave and head to my son's next game.
I just found it interesting that he was quoting $27/SAE and, for "illustration purposes" started silver spot at $20/oz and also used the FedEx cost as if it was a lot when, if it is $28 for a monster box, as I have no idea what it really is, then that isn't much per coin when divided by 500 ($0.06 each coin, or $1.20 per roll). So, by his math, starting backwards to see profit expectations..... ($27(selling price)-$2(AR markup)-$3.50(USMint markup to AR)-$0.06 (FedEx price)-$spot price (he quoted $20 for an example but it is under $17, so let's use that number) = $4.44/SAE.
Not a huge profit, but not too shabby for an SAE......to me, it was just interesting in how he played the "assume silver spot was $20" to justify his pricing....
Also, a dealer had books of raw coins that I looked through. From what I saw, I think Franklins get played with the most for ATing attempts. A couple were double-sided toners. One side looked pretty good. The other, not so much and cemented "AT" in my mind. Didn't see Roosies/Kennedys/Washies/Morgans/Peace played with in the same way...though I am sure they are all played with at some point in the market.
Since I was in, and out, in less than an hour, I didn't see any forum members I knew and just talked to a few dealers I knew as I breezed through.
Oh yeah....saw some 1985 photo certs ("Numismatic something something" was the company...similar to ones I have seen before but not same company I recall). 2 morgans and 1 WLH. One morgan looked really washed out and not really like the photo...which was showing a coin with some toning. The other looked right. The WLH looked right. Submission value on the holder had "Submitter value: $500" for each coin. Wow! Is that what they were back in 1985? They were all marked "MS65" (1881-S, 1880-S, morgans, and 1946-S WLH). Dealer said they were purchased from Heritage prior (didn't ask if it was recent or awhile ago) and that he didn't think any of them were more than a MS63 and he was pricing them as such....except for the one he "cracked out" and submitted. 1893, toned, Morgan that PCGS graded MS64+ (nice score!).
All in all - I liked going since I hadn't been to a show for a long time, but I am trying to be a little more focused in what I purchase, and so this show didn't even come close to yielding anything for me and cost me a few hours of driving and a few gallons of gas.
Maybe, if any other forum member attended and made a purchase, they can show the coin(s) that "got away" from me
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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I was there, too...but left at noon so I must have just missed you.
Did you see the encased cents display in the lobby? ... 50 states and others ... someone spent a lot of time putting that together.
And the short snorter guy at the back of the room gives a great WWII history lesson.
$27 per ASE is no doubt a tad optimistic ... nuff said!
I picked up a pretty rim toned proof Philippines 20C from Bruce Wonder. Why not?
Also grabbed a few of those free Numismatist mags.
i so need to get with a local club to find a local show or 2
with time to really study
all my best to ya
<< <i>Oh yeah....saw some 1985 photo certs ("Numismatic something something" was the company...similar to ones I have seen before but not same company I recall). 2 morgans and 1 WLH. One morgan looked really washed out and not really like the photo...which was showing a coin with some toning. The other looked right. The WLH looked right. Submission value on the holder had "Submitter value: $500" for each coin. Wow! Is that what they were back in 1985? They were all marked "MS65" (1881-S, 1880-S, morgans, and 1946-S WLH). Dealer said they were purchased from Heritage prior (didn't ask if it was recent or awhile ago) and that he didn't think any of them were more than a MS63 and he was pricing them as such....except for the one he "cracked out" and submitted. 1893, toned, Morgan that PCGS graded MS64+ (nice score!). >>
You must have been there after me, since I picked up one of them - a 1879-S - because it's a different form of the photocert than the NCI one I already have. 2/21/1985 date (just a few months earlier than the others that you saw), but the sticker has an 1984 copyright date.
NCI - Numismatic Certification Institute - was quite reputable back in the day. Early with photocerts and also with slabbed coins (another one of the dealers who was there - John Howe - has just finished selling off his father's slabbed coins as in Dad sent them into NCI to be slabbed in the late 80s).
Also picked up an ANA/ANACS slab, but my notes say that letter combo (EX) is from the Amos days, so it's possible I've found the cross-over (EX1885 is ANA and the EX7xxx I saw on eBay was clearly Amos - now I have some research to do).
All in all fun day
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Pretty cool, imho, as the date was visible and the coin looked great. This was at Dan's table (another EAC guy....nice guy, took over from Ed before Ed passed. I like Dan and I liked Ed as well)
SeattleSlammer - yep...probably missed each other by minutes. I looked to see if I could see you. Sorry I missed you. Looking forward to seeing a pic on the 20centavo if you do one. That might have been one I might have grabbed if I had seen it. Depends, but they are cool.
Yes - did see the items/people you mentioned. Dude in the back right corner was super interesting....he had bank notes and was giving someone else quite the informational lesson when I walked by. Cool but....well.....I'll leave it at cool
LoL - PNW shows are pretty cool. I stay in this area for the most part and we do have some nice shows. While I really like the Boeing, and the PNNA, shows, I also really like the smaller, club, shows like this one (usually).
As for the SAE background. Yes, that is a somewhat accurate representation of how it all breaks down. We all do that, to a degree. My thing was that he was fudging a few numbers to make it seem not so bad.
He can ask ANY price he wants. He can figure out what he wants to make per coin. I don't have any issue with that. Just wish he was more accurate when talking with a new person. He got me, once, and I let it happen even when I knew better, as it wasn't for much money. It was my way to test him out. The "loss" was small, to me, and maybe to most. The "tuition" taught me to quickly scan his stuff and move on if there is no clear cherrypick. No respect for him nor his business after what he did and what I continue to see.
Burton - Yep, you were there before I was. Was definitely NCI. No 1879 when I was there. The photo-certs were in pretty good condition considering they were ~30yrs old. Is the stated value on yours $500 as well? The other 3 I saw were. I wonder what the original photo cert on the 1893 he had that he submitted were....?
I also saw a few ANA/ANACS slabs, but they were the "newer" older ones. Black back label. Coins weren't that nice, nor things I really wanted, so I passed.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Thanks for writing it up!
Made my evening- i know that's pathetic....
Been to and enjoyed this show a few years ago. Had to work this weekend so it was a no-go this year.
Loved your report and the blow by blow of "SW"...
I've seen and heard his pitches enough to almost have visualized the exchange through reading your most excellent account.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
As a dealer , I can buy them at anywhere from 2.49-2.99 over face, and in most cases the company I buy them from either charges 10.00 for shipping the whole box or free like apmex.
at 16.25 silver, I can mark up a dollar or two and sell em at 21 or less easily.
we have a dealer here locally who does the same thing
<< <i> (sorry....no food shots
LOL!!!!
Though, am not a bullion dealer, per se. Each coin stands on it's own merit. Even in a roll.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I don't care about their explanations about pricing. Either the price is within the range I am expecting or not.
If Lou was indeed selling a 1/10 AGE for $1 over BV, I don't see how he stays in business. CDN wholesale ask is at least $13 over BV.
<< <i>Unbelievable an experienced dealer spent all that effort "explaining" pricing on ASE's and then as usual the guy walked off. Currently Kitco has ASE's at 20.33 each. One should research this kind of data before going to a show.
I don't care about their explanations about pricing. Either the price is within the range I am expecting or not.
If Lou was indeed selling a 1/10 AGE for $1 over BV, I don't see how he stays in business. CDN wholesale ask is at least $13 over BV. >>
I think that all the locals that know "SW" wouldn't be surprised....he likes to talk and he likes to try to screw people over that don't know better, on the pricing. He, though, at least does not, from what I have seen, try to screw people over on the coin quality like some others that send a lot to 3rd and 4th tier TPGSs....
As for Lou, I was right there...he did indeed sell it for the price I stated. He stays in business by doing things his way and, talking to him yesterday, his way is his way (ie.....he only does a couple of shows a year now...he is old and this is basically "fun in retirement" and he isn't going to give things away for free but he doesn't need to worry about a few dollars here or there)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I like that show and wish I could've met up with the CU contingent yesterday.
As it turned out my grandson asked to me to tag along with his scout troop on an overnighter in Oregon. We had a night at the Museum experience and actually bunked out under the Spruce Goose in McMinnville.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso