Proving yet again, Spot doesn't matter...
piecesofme
Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
when it comes to collectible Engelhard bars
Went for every bit of what it should've, very close to the same as when Spot was $20, from a seller who hasn't sold anything in over a year and only 1 crooked picture to go off of. For those who've said it does play into it, more proof that Spot just doesn't matter when it comes to these kind of bars. So when you buy them you can have the confidence of doing well when you go to sell them, unlike the generic garbage that IS a slave to whatever Spot is. However many oz's one has doesn't mean squat, it's all about the collectibility.
Went for every bit of what it should've, very close to the same as when Spot was $20, from a seller who hasn't sold anything in over a year and only 1 crooked picture to go off of. For those who've said it does play into it, more proof that Spot just doesn't matter when it comes to these kind of bars. So when you buy them you can have the confidence of doing well when you go to sell them, unlike the generic garbage that IS a slave to whatever Spot is. However many oz's one has doesn't mean squat, it's all about the collectibility.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
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Throwing away good money that could be used to purchase additional ounces or in the case of slabs, better coins.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
In short, it is pointless to try to convince those who cannot be swayed. I shake my head at times when I see strong prices paid for obscure numismatic items. However, I don't scoff at the idea that collectors genuinely desire such items.
That said when unusual items appear, like the previously unseen two Engelhard 5 oz extruded bars on ebay recently, knowledgeable collectors will bid strongly. The winning bidder will be happy, the underbidders will be disappointed and the naysayers will reflect upon what a pawn shop would pay for the item.
The present 10 oz bar you pictured commanded a strong price considering it is moderately scarce. A previously unseen 10 oz Engelhard example would command far stronger money.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
however Coins circulated for years and years in ordinary transactions by thousands of different people. The older bars (like modern bars) were made for industrial use and for some reason, rather than being made into parts, were instead saved in lockboxes
an assemblage of them sure is cool, but also rather bulky
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>My point I was trying to make is when the price of silver goes to $75 an ounce (I know some of you think I'm dreaming, but for this case, just bear with me) no one will be paying a premium for these bars when it's time to cash them in, or if they do, it will be a very small premium. >>
Agree, but that holds true with most numismatic products that are not tied to spot. Most of us are aware of that. POM is making a point, that there are collectible bars, that demand a substantial premium regardless spot.
<< <i>My point I was trying to make is when the price of silver goes to $75 an ounce (I know some of you think I'm dreaming, but for this case, just bear with me) no one will be paying a premium for these bars when it's time to cash them in, or if they do, it will be a very small premium. >>
wrong, that didnt happen at 30,40,45+... now 75? lol, same thing...
<< <i>My point I was trying to make is when the price of silver goes to $75 an ounce (I know some of you think I'm dreaming, but for this case, just bear with me) no one will be paying a premium for these bars when it's time to cash them in, or if they do, it will be a very small premium. >>
If this is true then they are what you should buy at $75 an ounce to protect on the downside.
Sort of like circulated morgans are still fetching $25 a piece even though spot has been cut in half over the last 2 years
<< <i>Same hold true with the 1 oz Art Bars. There is a niche of collectors for just about anything, even for "pet rocks." >>
Yeah, don't know if the Coca-Cola Ag bars are still bringing huge premiums but they sure were when silver was $30. Sometimes double melt or more.
MY GOLD TYPE SET https://pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/complete-type-sets/gold-type-set-12-piece-circulation-strikes-1839-1933/publishedset/321940
<< <i>Yeah, don't know if the Coca-Cola Ag bars are still bringing huge premiums but they sure were when silver was $30. Sometimes double melt or more.
All Coca-Cola bars command a premium, but a handful command a significant premium. The more commonly seen ones (Florida, Mobile, Chattanooga, Houston, Norfolk, etc.) are selling for $30 to $40 right now (lower end of that range if you start them at .99 and run a true auction) which is a very fair price IMO as they offer a bit of downside protection in the event we actually see $6 silver again. The art bar market is extremely thin IMO and prices have softened over the last couple of months. The rarest of the rare bars haven't really slid much in price though as the sellers of those bars are simply sitting on them and waiting for a fish to come along and bite on their BuyItNow auctions.
<< <i>Same hold true with the 1 oz Art Bars. There is a niche of collectors for just about anything, even for "pet rocks." >>
Ssshhhhh, that's not true! Those things aren't worth anything to anyone and should only be sold for spot
<< <i>My point I was trying to make is when the price of silver goes to $75 an ounce (I know some of you think I'm dreaming, but for this case, just bear with me) no one will be paying a premium for these bars >>
When silver was in the $40's I can recall many art bars selling for $100+. Sure there aren't many of us out there chasing collectible "bullion", but there are hundreds of IASAC (International Association of Silver Art Collectors) members out there. There are even a smaller group of people out there, myself included who collect vintage silver rounds as well as 1oz art bars.
<< <i>Collector/Stacker - 2 completely different worlds. You're not selling the bar in the auction to a stacker thats for sure. >>
True, but there are a tiny handful of people like myself who consider themselves to be both a collector and a stacker
oOOOH, FINALLY ZINGED SilverBaron!
Duh, of course everyone would rather have a shoebox of oddball Engelhards over a stacks of sealed ASE boxes
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>Spot has never mattered, unless u buy/sell a paper contract... >>
Spot always matters, it is the base from which premiums for physical metal are added or subtracted. If spot didn't matter you'd still be paying $47 for a bullion 2011 ASE or $6 for a 2004 ASE. It matters even with collector items, they just demand a much higher premium.
Rising premiums during a period of falling spot price are indicative of strong physical demand. When physical demand retreats and buyers go into hibernation we will see declining premiums and will know that there is a real bear market in physical metals. Declining spot prices do not reflect physical demand, they reflect the paper market, leveraged up to 1000 to 1 in the case of silver. But because spot does matter physical metal prices suffer or flourish from the abuse (rigging) in the paper market. Just as trade payment agreements between foreign traders are bringing an end to US dollar world market domination, alternative foreign metal exchanges such as Shanghai will bring an end to CFTC/COMEX shenanigans. Make no mistake, economic warfare is well underway.
Paper gold and its affect on prices
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Spot has no bearing on truly collectible items, which really begs the question if that bar is truly collectible or not...
<< <i> Paper gold and its affect on prices >>
Price doesn't move on fundamentals, either way up or down...that's y these genius' u read n quote, were on the wrong side of the market, bigtime...now fumblin & mumblin anything to get people to still listen...
How so, he was collectibility items AND quantity LOL
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Click smiley
<< <i>
<< <i> Paper gold and its affect on prices >>
Price doesn't move on fundamentals, either way up or down...that's y these genius' u read n quote, were on the wrong side of the market, bigtime...now fumblin & mumblin anything to get people to still listen... >>
Price moves where those who pass out the money want it. Equities are a case in point. Old news.
Fundamentals are what set in when the lid is lifted and the scum floats to the surface. 2008 real estate crash is a case in point. More old news.
Fundamentals are currently setting the price for many commodities, including PMs: deflation will cause asset prices to fall. Most of those "geniuses" have stated this and warn of continued drops in commodity prices, including PMs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I don't know if a few examples of anything ever "prove" a point, but it's pretty clear that there is some demand for these, for whatever reason.
(it's probably not because someone takes a magnifying glass and looks at every bit of the piece and admires the beauty, they way they would an old coin that costs this much)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Engelhard 4 oz bar on Ebay, bid to $1000+ and reserve not met
I don't know if a few examples of anything ever "prove" a point, but it's pretty clear that there is some demand for these, for whatever reason.
(it's probably not because someone takes a magnifying glass and looks at every bit of the piece and admires the beauty, they way they would an old coin that costs this much) >>
Reserve is a bad move on this one, when someone offers a dime plus u take it, sometimes you can't force a price when there aren't a boatload of actual buyers....
Not entirely true. I've been blessed with knowing who the go-to people are to contact when selling. eBay is actually a secondary place to offer them.
They don't like their identities known, so please don't ask for a list of them.
<< <i>eBay is one of the very few places where these bars can be sold for a significant premium over melt
Not entirely true. I've been blessed with knowing who the go-to people are to contact when selling. eBay is actually a secondary place to offer them.
They don't like their identities known, so please don't ask for a list of them. >>
How many of them did you first hook up with on ebay?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Engelhard 4 oz bar on Ebay, bid to $1000+ and reserve not met
I don't know if a few examples of anything ever "prove" a point, but it's pretty clear that there is some demand for these, for whatever reason.
(it's probably not because someone takes a magnifying glass and looks at every bit of the piece and admires the beauty, they way they would an old coin that costs this much) >>
I wonder if the owner of this rare bar set an unrealistically high reserve so a couple of his alts could bid it up to establish an unrealistic value for this bar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Spot has never mattered, unless u buy/sell a paper contract... >>
Spot always matters, it is the base from which premiums for physical metal are added or subtracted. If spot didn't matter you'd still be paying $47 for a bullion 2011 ASE or $6 for a 2004 ASE. It matters even with collector items, they just demand a much higher premium.
Rising premiums during a period of falling spot price are indicative of strong physical demand. When physical demand retreats and buyers go into hibernation we will see declining premiums and will know that there is a real bear market in physical metals. Declining spot prices do not reflect physical demand, they reflect the paper market, leveraged up to 1000 to 1 in the case of silver. But because spot does matter physical metal prices suffer or flourish from the abuse (rigging) in the paper market. Just as trade payment agreements between foreign traders are bringing an end to US dollar world market domination, alternative foreign metal exchanges such as Shanghai will bring an end to CFTC/COMEX shenanigans. Make no mistake, economic warfare is well underway. >>
If spot matters to u, then it's evidence u have no clue in how to correctly identify value in phyzz silver...
<< <i>If spot matters to u, then it's evidence u have no clue in how to correctly identify value in phyzz silver... >>
It matters to some of us. For everyone else they write the dollar value on the coin
Give ya $2 for all those $1 ASEs. You can double your money.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey