Are ms70 coins stable
coppertoning
Posts: 385 ✭
I have been collecting for 5 years and in this time I have mostly collected early wheat cents with the MS70 look.
I can not say for certain any of my coins have had ms70 used on them but I do know that the ones with the look I have had for nearly 5 years have not had any changes. I have owned a few that other collectors owned for years prior to me that appear stable.
Curios what other collectors experiences are with these types of coins.
So are ms70 coins stable?
Do you think that collectors accept the look as MA?
Do you think the tpgs find it MA?
I asked both separate since the habits of each other surely play a role in what is slabbed and collected. Not sure who has the most pull here.
I can not say for certain any of my coins have had ms70 used on them but I do know that the ones with the look I have had for nearly 5 years have not had any changes. I have owned a few that other collectors owned for years prior to me that appear stable.
Curios what other collectors experiences are with these types of coins.
So are ms70 coins stable?
Do you think that collectors accept the look as MA?
Do you think the tpgs find it MA?
I asked both separate since the habits of each other surely play a role in what is slabbed and collected. Not sure who has the most pull here.
2
Comments
it's taboo to me
i've heard it changes color of patina on copper
top tpg companys if i recall right...reject um too
only thing i know copper can be addressed with is olive or mineral oil to save natural patina hues
stable...probably not unless an after rinse of some type is used...acetone maybe? to get that stuff off of the surface
for the most part...it's not just taboo to me...i'm not alone in finding distaste in ms70'd copper
<< <i>
Do you think that collectors accept the look as MA?
Do you think the tpgs find it MA?
>>
Yes and yes.
The rest of your questions I am not qualified to answer.
name like coppertoning...wasn't thinking of any other base metal coinage
nickel and silver...yeah...it's market acceptable
copper n ms70...not
take a poll incase some are in hiding on such topic
stable...this i don't know...everyone i know does an after rinse to get these chemicals off...
even most of these products don't advise long exposure....that's saying something within itself there
So, you're still at zero coins ?
<< <i>" I have mostly collected early wheat cents with the MS70 look. "
So, you're still at zero coins ?
Well let's just say it's not a lot
Now, whether or not any I have have had that done, I am not 100% sure. But, when they have that overall blue look, I don't want them.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
To answer your OP questions . .
Stability is quite often a question of the rinsing phase, and under normal warm-water rinsing, the coin will remain stable. Acetone, etc. probably heightens the stability.
MA? On copper, the answer is an unqualified "NO". I have observed the back-and-forth banter about the purplish/bluish look that MS70 gives to uncirculated copper and I ( and some other numismatists with experience -- purely from a scientific standpoint!!! ) stand firmly in the "MS70 has a DEFINITE LOOK" camp. Every piece of COPPER that I have experimented on (as above, purely for scientific purposes) has exhibited a clear blue/purple look that has nothing to do with the rinse, but has everything to do with the compound itself. Yes, I see major copper dealers here with proof and uncirculated copper in holders and they are quite proud of their purple/blue look. All I can say is . . . . "Bravo". It is not my place to determine how or why copper gets in holders that has been MS-70'd (nice verb there).
The TPGS? I am unsure. I don't want to waste the $25 per coin to play around. Yes, I have seen several posted here, including copper used as avatars and several in sig lines, that just screams MS70, but they are certified. OK, perhaps I am mistaken. Um, let's go with that reasoning. Makes the flaming less intense
Now, branching out slightly.
On silver and copper-nickel, MS70 is an absolute WONDER. Originally designed as a golf-ball cleaner at driving ranges, it is not acidic, but has strong detergents. It is quite 'slick' when applied, but rinses clean and is quite unlike the "dip" compounds or concepts we view as anathema to the coin community. It is stronger than warm water - YES - but in no way resembles the acidic metal-removing action of the "DIP" compounds available at your local B&M. YES -- you only use it on uncirculated and dull silver. It takes the haze off proofs and dirty uncirculated silver and copper-nickel and restores an 'as-minted' look. I would never use it on circulated silver (I have experimented -- it is OBVIOUS -- of course all experimented coins were immediately melted) as it brightens circ silver to an obvious 'cleaned' look. But on uncirculated silver (Morgans and warnicks are superb), it can be a useful numismatic tool.
OK . . . as they say "your experience may vary".
Be very careful in any attempt to 'clean' a coin. My advice is just to never do it . .
Drunner
(Buying all MS70 Doilies))
Lance.
BEFORE
AFTER
Does it exist in the earliest gen holders?
When did ms70 hit the market?
Where there is reaction there is change. How can that be stable ?
My mantra : Collect what you like because that's what matters most.
<< <i>Chemicals change things. I don't see where it causes stability.
Where there is reaction there is change. How can that be stable ?
My mantra : Collect what you like because that's what matters most. >>
reminds me...time for my 7 pm dose...
MS70 also contains ethanol, sodium gluconate, and sulfonated sodium salts.
Does it react with what's on a tarnished copper coin or just strip the old patina? Lots of debate.
Lance.
Yes. These reagents were listed on an MSDS sheet for MS70, one that I recall reading a few years ago. Potassium hydroxide (KOH) is also known as lye in some of its formulations, and this is what digests organic matter. In alkaline solutions (high pH), sodium gluconate is industrially used as a chelating agent---to remove metal contaminants (iron, copper, calcium, etc.) from glass and other surfaces.
I would not call MS70 an innocuous cleaner, even if one rinses well after its use.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
DOES THIS COIN seem like it will be stable in XXX years ? and then we can guess. But to ask the 'blanket" question… My answer will always be "NO".
<< <i>Someone posted the chemical analysis of the stuff awhile ago. Turns out it is potassium sulfate, which is used to dissolve organic material. Essentially it is cuticle remover. It has been found that it is not a soap or detergent or acid. The blue tone comes from the removal of the oils and organic debris on the coin. I don't believe it is toning applied to the coin by the chemical. Since most all brown and RB copper has oil of some kind on it from the air or handling, when it is totally removed it looks vastly different from what we are used to seeing. Over time the blue color will revert to brown as oils and debris reattach to the surface. >>
the assumptions posted here don't pass a basic logic test. With the consistent result of blue, it stands to reason that it is a chemical reaction between the copper and the compound other then an environmental secondary affect as insinuated by the OP. If was a issue of cause and effect after stripping the copper of its skin, there would be a much wider varrience of out comes in line with the variability of post dipping handling.
I guess I can understand why copper fans would want to think it is a passive reaction opposed to an active one as the lattar is walking a fine line with AT which if it was silver, it would be.?. Of course it would be.
However, I looked the arguments made about this for over a decade and I dont ever recall seeing a before and after shot of a coin that was not already toned or had something on it prior. A coin taken from a sealed proof set would be a good test case. Say a 1964-dated one. Real cheap and not a great loss if destroyed.
Also, many of the proof indian cents that are toned come from well known sources that date back to the 1930's and 1940's. In case anyone wants to go there.
Lance.
If you have a link to a thread or some other material I would be interested in reading
i read a book on bronze sculpting that included "patina finishing" of a work...ammonia on copper/bronze produces blue
leads me to believe
alot of copper examples have been exposed to ammonia in it's vapor state
not knowing or thinking about it...alot of old collections had glass around them that was cleaned with ammonia based cleaner
causing the environment of coin storage to acquire a % of ammonia in it's composition
surely what i just wrote contributes in some case examples...yes...no...?
My finding is that the toning is being uncovered by the removal of debris and oils. If you reapply the oil that were removed (as in the article) the toning will go away and the normally seen brown patina will be the result. If toning is being created, then a bright red coin sealed in a proof set would also react.
To be sure - The desired state with coins like Lance's 1920 cent is not the purple-toned, but brown-toned.
<< <i>the one to talk to about MS70 and IHC's isn't Rick Snow. perhaps Braddick and GMarguli would be a better choice. >>
Link
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<< <i>the one to talk to about MS70 and IHC's isn't Rick Snow. perhaps Braddick and GMarguli would be a better choice. >>
I thought Rick's article was quite educational. I've been watching Greg's auctions for years and I've never seen him offer any IHC for sale. Perhaps he handles them in his private time / personal collection but IMO it's Rick who is the IHC expert of the two. I'm not familiar with Braddick's area of expertise but I welcome his comments any day.
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I wrote the article and studied this and presented the facts BECAUSE of GMarguli and his misinformed posts. He is one of those people who believe that the sun rises because the rooster crows.
back to the point of MS70, after you originally posted the info above I was unable to replicate your results(or supposition) by using circ brown Wheat Cents. my conclusions after having used MS70 on a variety of bronze and pure copper medals/coins is that there is clearly a chemical reaction caused by the chemicals in the product which cannot be removed by rinsing in acetone or another solvent. to that end, it is already documented that acetone itself is phot-reactive with copper.
sometimes MS70 removes contaminants and causes no change, leaving only a brown surface. other times it gives blue/pink/purple highlights or even a darker brown surface. over the last few years whenever I have chosen to use it I have made certain that it is well shaken and thoroughly mixed. inadequate mixing of the contents is my best guess for why there are sometimes adverse results.
but, alas, my results are not scientific.
So why does MS70 turn copper coins blue, violet, etc? It reacts with the thin film of oxidated copper/bronze. The deeper the oxidation, the more color reaction. Red coins will have less of a reaction to no reaction since the oxidation is exteremely thin. Often, grime oxidizes the exposed portions of the coin surface less than crevices. That is why you may have colors in the hidden portions of the coin, and less color on the exposed portions, after an application of MS70. The reaction is NOT reversible, meaning placing acetone will not "bring back" the original surfaces. However, placing Blue Ribbon WILL mute the color. Acetone will remove the Blue Ribbon. bringing back the colors. Application of acetone to suspected AT on copper IS NOT a truthful method of determining real color from artificial color.
Usually, I think his posts are accurate, but when you have to bend the answer so much just to make it fit the observation, something must be wrong. It was posted way before my article, so it is an old theory, in my opinion.
First there is no "reaction", otherwise it would turn colors on every copper coin, bar, medal or whatever, not just coins. Or can a reaction occur only on certain oxidated copper or bronze? Threading a needle, I think.
If the idea put forth above were true, then every large cent would be blue.
Also, the idea of it not being reversible is a misnomer. It is reversible, but not exactly. You can't put back the grime-of-the-ages with more grime-of-the-ages. The article I posted shows a proof coin that went from RB to colors to RB and to colors again. Reversible.
The fact is, it only affects RB and BN copper because RB copper is toned and has grime-of-the-ages on it covering the toning. The base of the toning without the grime-of-the-ages is the blueish color or tan or brown, but we never see it normally because of the grime-of-the-ages or oil on the coin.
Again, I am not saying it is preferred to strip the naturally occurring oils off of copper/bronze coins to show this toning. The preferred look is brown.
If the idea put forth above were true, then every large cent would be blue.
I have only used MS70 when I was attempting to remove haze or contaminants from bronze/copper coins and medals, but since Large Cents are pure copper it may be that the chemicals in MS70 have a specific reaction due to the 5% tin and zinc alloy.
I don' think this is an easily answered topic. I have had varying results with unscientific methods much the same as you have. also, your criticism of TruthTeller is a little biased and my "results" tend to mimic his. what I am left with is that MS70 can be a useful product if used carefully on certain coins for very specific reasons. unfortunately, it has been discovered that it can also be used to impart color in some instances. this latter application has been abused and the result is a preponderance of AT Bronze coins and the expected caution from collectors.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>
The fact is, it only affects RB and BN copper because RB copper is toned and has grime-of-the-ages on it covering the toning. The base of the toning without the grime-of-the-ages is the blueish color or tan or brown, but we never see it normally because of the grime-of-the-ages or oil on the coin.
Again, I am not saying it is preferred to strip the naturally occurring oils off of copper/bronze coins to show this toning. The preferred look is brown. >>
That is a ridiculous hypothesis, I would encourage people on the fence about this to remember certain player's monetary incentive to maintain the market acceptability of preferential toning colors. To assert that underneath most dirty copper is vividly toned colors when most "oils/grime" are not going to obscure color and there's a much more obvious explanation of a simple chemical reaction in front of everybody.
I will conceed that anytime you strip a coin down using a detergent or solvent you are going to get more metal exsposed to the elements and on a metal is reactive is copper it will tone in a new direction then prior to its bath. I will also conceed that one is almost damned if he does or doesn't with copper as it is a steady progression towards oblivion with that metal. History has shown that it is better to be conserved then grimy and corroding.
I find it a paradox that the market values originality with an exception made for copper. Not all blue copper has been assisted but there is clearly a way to speed up that particular color progression which makes it shady in my book, but hey I don't collect stuff.
Old Thread Alert! However, paging @DRUNNER regarding his comments on copper-nickel. Do those comments (regarding MS70) apply to MS copper-nickel Flying Eagle and Indian cents as well? Or is there too much copper for it to have the same effect as it does on nickels and the out layer of CN clad (88/12 vs 75/25 Cu/Ni)
What’s interesting is I have seen the color of toned/oxidized copper stripped of oils and dirt described as cherry red when using ezest/acetone and also described as blue when using ms70. Can’t be both.
Wow a blast from the past
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@coppertoning said: "I have been collecting for 5 years and in this time I have mostly collected early wheat cents with the MS70 look."
I'll read this discussion later as it looks interesting. I've been using chemicals (including MS70) on copper and CN for a long time. Hopefully, when I get around to reading this thread, I'll learn what exactly the "MS70 look" is.
A coin treated with chemicals needs to be NEUTRALIZED! Otherwise, it may change color over time.
Loose valence electrons might leak out all over the floor
I have followed closely the comments and discussion in recent threads on MS70 and the look it may impart to copper, but have chosen to enjoy the education and not clutter up threads with my thoughts. But . . .I got an alert today that this thread was up . . . and Connecticoin had posed a question. First . . . to respond directly to the question . . . my personal experience with copper-nickel (1859-1864) Indians is that there was no appreciable color change. I would regard it as a function of the composition, although this is purely anecdotal and I have a relatively small sample size.
I still maintain that for Uncirculated silver, particularly that which has hazed over a bit, MS70 is a critical tool to use. It will restore an 'as minted' luster that is quite impressive. Warnicks seem to have a unique adaptation to MS70 as well . . . perhaps another example of metal composition.
I have had occasional bouts with tougher coins. Recently I purchased a few Mercs and needed to remove a bit of darker toning that was unattractive. I experimented (minor value coins) and was unable to affect darker toning or the heavy 'skin'. However, on several other (1941-1945) hazy Mercs, I have been able to restore quite a look of original luster.
There are obvious limitations. Copper will take on an unmistakable color change that is obvious to me, but I respect the others and posters who disagree. Circulated silver just gets a washed out and cleaned look. I presume you need flow lines to be present in order for luster to appear (sort of a no-brainer?).
OK . . I have re-read, looking for inflammatory openings, and would repeat, I was drawn out on this and have spent my time on the sidelines of the debate . . having clearly learned what is going on with my own experimentation. I respect the continued thoughts . . . and will also keep looking for Warnicks that I know I can bring up to my standards !!!
Drunner
Much of the change in color on CN is due to the natural film on the coin's surface. This goes for all coins and metals.
One of our perennial discussion topics. It seems no matter what study or experimentation has revealed (and there is excellent information here), there will be those that discount or take exception to it....We have a few topics like this.... certainly keeps the forum interesting. Cheers, RickO
I am sure of one thing...it won't get any better! It's all downhill from now for MS70 coins...until the 100 point grading scale comes around...if it ever does...which I hope not...that's all...for now...until I come with something else...(phone slipping through fingers).
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