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So I was perusing Clemente cardboard just now...

galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 8,281 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
...and clearly it's time for me to go to bed.

Buenas noches!

you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet

Comments

  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    image
  • StingrayStingray Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭
    Do you think that PSA would have graded it, if it had a Hitler mustache?? JW??
  • flcardtraderflcardtrader Posts: 798 ✭✭✭
    5MK?

    I have gotten cards back with an 5 MK qualifier and had to hold the card angled to the light to find where they saw a mark. In the end, I found the MK but it was ever so subtle.

    The more I see PSA in motion, the more I realize they are like the government = don't ask, don't tell, don't think - just pay us our money and be happy with what we provide to you.

    Ok, so maybe that's a poor analogy but that is an undeserving grade on that Clemente. Should have been a 2MK.

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  • Baez578Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭
    That's one ugly MK.....and one interesting 5
  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's ok. I have a fellow sales rep that is having me sell some cards for him that have been sitting in his house for 35 years, and he is in his mid 60's. We were in Chicago having breakfast the day before the National, and I was flying back that day to pick up the family and head to Cleveland. We were talking cards when he mentioned he had some from the 50's and 60's and could I take a look at them next time I was on the west coast. Fast forward to last month and I check out his cards - full set from 1959 and 1960, full set of 1972, 1977, 1978, and 1980. Had some Mantles that are probably PSA 3-5 from 1959 and 1961. Sad part is some kid years ago sorted the cards for him and put his initial "T" on several of the cards including a Clemente rookie, 1955 Mays and Robinson, 1956 Robinson, and a few others. Never dealt with that on a card and would they even be worth submitting?
  • bighurt2000bighurt2000 Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭
    image
    http://stores.ebay.com/bighurt2000

  • Baez578Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That's ok. I have a fellow sales rep that is having me sell some cards for him that have been sitting in his house for 35 years, and he is in his mid 60's. We were in Chicago having breakfast the day before the National, and I was flying back that day to pick up the family and head to Cleveland. We were talking cards when he mentioned he had some from the 50's and 60's and could I take a look at them next time I was on the west coast. Fast forward to last month and I check out his cards - full set from 1959 and 1960, full set of 1972, 1977, 1978, and 1980. Had some Mantles that are probably PSA 3-5 from 1959 and 1961. Sad part is some kid years ago sorted the cards for him and put his initial "T" on several of the cards including a Clemente rookie, 1955 Mays and Robinson, 1956 Robinson, and a few others. Never dealt with that on a card and would they even be worth submitting? >>



    image

    Depending on the condition of the card itself, I think some of those cards are worth grading regardless of the "T".
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    Had to have been graded for a laugh. I'm assuming they didn't expect the 5.
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    Does make you wonder why a great card that's a 8 or 8.5 that has a surface wrinkle I have to put under magnification and tilt the right way with direct light on it to see is a automatic 5 and that eyesore got one to.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    This is how qualifiers work. If the mustache and filled in teeth WERE NOT there, what condition would the card be in?? The card has almost perfect centering, and average corners. The card appears to be a nice mid grade card (if it were not for the filled in mustache and teeth by some kid in 1967). Obviously the mustache and filled in teeth by some kid in 1967 gives it the MK qualifier. However, you have to grade the card as though the marks won't there. You can't give the card a '2' (MK), because the condition of the card is obviously better than a '2'.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    Here is the card in question. All MARKS are not created equal. Some are more subtle, and then some are bad like this one. However, you have to look at the card as though the mark wasn't there. To say this card is a PSA 2 (MK), means that the card is falling apart and has marks. I don't see this card as falling apart at all, but it does has marks. PSA got the grade right on this one.

    image
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not to stir the pot. But I think the Mark qual should also consider the indent of the pen as well. Some marks could be just placed by a finger with ink on them. and then other could be done by a fountain pen. Both are ink marks but one puts more damage on the cardboard than the other.
    This one looks pressed and not smeared I guess.
    I have no problem with the grade but I can see someone having issue with several marks going into the MK.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    to classify the card as something qualified by technicality does not dismiss the fact that it is a disgrace. don't cram that nicely centered crap down my eyeballs.

    they still tell me it's a disgrace.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>to classify the card as something qualified by technicality does not dismiss the fact that it is a disgrace. don't cram that nicely centered crap down my eyeballs.

    they still tell me it's a disgrace. >>



    Yea ....I also saw someone little youngster back in 1965 draw a Fu-Manchu moustache on a Joe Namath rookie card! Tell me you would turn your nose up at that offering because some little kid decided to make Broadway Joe Chinese!! Call it what you want, some people think it gives it character! The fact that back in the 60's, kids didn't obsess over cards. They pinned them on walls, flipped them, stuck them in bicycle spokes, and yes DREW FACIAL HAIR ON THEIR HEROES (OR ENEMIES). We are talking about the technical grade of the card however. PSA got it right. Call it ugly if you want. Some people think it has character. Not like it is a bloated sky high BIN. It is a .99 cent auction for Pete's sake!
  • flcardtraderflcardtrader Posts: 798 ✭✭✭


    << <i> because the condition of the card is obviously better than a '2'. >>



    It is?

    There are marks and then there is graffitti - this one is the latter and not deserving of the grade IMHO.
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  • flcardtraderflcardtrader Posts: 798 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Does make you wonder why a great card that's a 8 or 8.5 that has a surface wrinkle I have to put under magnification and tilt the right way with direct light on it to see is a automatic 5 and that eyesore got one to. >>



    Precisely.

    Standards are in place for a reason and this one doesn't pass the test.
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  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Does make you wonder why a great card that's a 8 or 8.5 that has a surface wrinkle I have to put under magnification and tilt the right way with direct light on it to see is a automatic 5 and that eyesore got one to >>



    A card with a tiny surface wrinkle HAS to get graded a '5', because that is a hidden defect. If that card didn't get a '5', and someone spent '8', or '8.5' money on the card, and then found a surface wrinkle on it, how pissed do you think that buyer would be!?!?!?! I can promise you there would be a thread started on this board about how a seller is not honoring a return because the card is graded, and the buyer overpaid anywhere from several hundred to several thousand.

  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Standards are in place for a reason and this one doesn't pass the test. >>



    How did it not pass the test?? It got the MK qualifier obviously. Nothing hidden on the card. It has no hidden surface wrinkles. You can obviously see where the 'mark' is...lol! If the card wasn't marked, then the card looks like it could be a decent card. I think some of you are confused about what a qualifier actually is. Joe actually has a decent tutorial on the subject of qualifiers somewhere in the history of SMR magazine. You don't mark the card down because of the mark AND THEN apply the qualifier! Let's say the submitter requested 'NO QUALIFIERS' on his submission. If the card was actually graded a '2' or '3' but DID NOT have a qualifier, what kind of discussion would we be having then?? PSA would be blasted for missing an obvious mark! The card is graded as though the qualifier IS NOT there, and then the qualifier is applied. As much as some people on here can't believe it, PSA got the grade right. My suggestion is to go back and read the article on qualifiers.
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    I'm gonna have to disagree on the letter of the law argument here. I'm not disgraced over this as you say as I use to be the kid putting cards in my spokes and flipping them at one time. I just think the card is more beat up by the marking, probably dented up in both areas it was colored on and it's smack dab in the middle of the card. It's not funny it's a complete eyesore for a collector. On that note your right it's a 99 cent auction and like I wrote I'm betting it was graded for a joke.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>It's not funny it's a complete eyesore for a collector. >>



    That is where you and I disagree. Back in the past, all cards weren't kept in "mint" state. Kids played with the cards. They put rubber bands around them. And yes, they marked on them. What fun would it be if every card was "gem mint"? The grading scale goes from 1-10 to satisfy all kinds of ranges. Some collectors collect "gem mint" cards. Others collect "loved" cards. Other collectors go out of their way to collect printing oddites (check out the latest T206 craze). I am not one to down what someone wants to collect. If they want to collect "well loved" cards, so be it. Clemente is a HOFer. Who is to say someone from Puerto Rico wouldn't want this card, no matter the condition, and might even find it amusing, as he/she "mustached" their cards as a youth growing up?
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It's not funny it's a complete eyesore for a collector. >>



    Who is to say someone from Puerto Rico wouldn't want this card, no matter the condition, and might even find it amusing, as he/she "mustached" their cards as a youth growing up. >>




    The concept of "mustached" their cards as a youth is an interesting one and I think a very valid point.

    I could easily see someone buying a card like this for that reason.

    After all the power of nostalgia is very real. Excellent point.

  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    If someone wants that card for nostalgia reasons then great I for one have a love of the game that's only increased by my love for hobby. I just think the card even with a qualifier didn't warrent the EX grade. That's where we differ.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I just think the card even with a qualifier didn't warrent the EX grade. That's where we differ. >>



    Well...what grade would you have given the card?
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    I'd rather not get into a discussion on qualifiers and why I dislike them. This is the only area of the grading process where I prefer SGC. They just grade the card. I think qualifiers just lead to discussions like this one. To me the card is in poor condition because it is marked up. I would prefer the qualifier be dropped and the card be labeled a 1 or a 2. I can see the logic in your look past the mustache argument and grade it as if it wasn't there but my response to that is that the writing also damaged the card in other ways making it more than just a stain or a marking. To ansewer your question the cards a 1 or a 2 in my opinion. Yes yes I know the qualifier lowers the grade in a registry and all of that. I just think the overall apperance and how and where this card was colored lowers the overall grade past the letter of the law interpretation of the grading standards.
  • Baez578Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It's not funny it's a complete eyesore for a collector. >>



    That is where you and I disagree. Back in the past, all cards weren't kept in "mint" state. Kids played with the cards. They put rubber bands around them. And yes, they marked on them. What fun would it be if every card was "gem mint"? The grading scale goes from 1-10 to satisfy all kinds of ranges. Some collectors collect "gem mint" cards. Others collect "loved" cards. Other collectors go out of their way to collect printing oddites (check out the latest T206 craze). I am not one to down what someone wants to collect. If they want to collect "well loved" cards, so be it. Clemente is a HOFer. Who is to say someone from Puerto Rico wouldn't want this card, no matter the condition, and might even find it amusing, as he/she "mustached" their cards as a youth growing up? >>



    As someone who is Puerto Rican and lives in Puerto Rico, I can assure you that no collector would want that card in a million years. They'd pay you to take the card back as a matter of fact.

    He is one of the most iconic figures and adored on our island and not many people would find a painted mustache amusing.

  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    I just think it's funny in that I can picture some Yankees fan hooking up the image of someone of a hated rival. Not saying the card is a gem mint worth thousands of dollars by no means, but also saying I dont understand all this hatred for the card.

    On a side note, if anyone has any experience with 1967 Topps Venezuelan cards, it is almost impossible to find those cards without some type of paper loss, mounting residue on the reverse. Kids adored those cards in South America. Does that make you not want those cards because someone desicrated the back?
  • Baez578Baez578 Posts: 967 ✭✭✭
    I believe those cards were offered with a corresponding "baseball card book" and buyers were encouraged to stick them into their collector's book.

    The back's are destroyed from collectors who have done their best to remove them from the books.

    That's what I was told when I was in Venezuela anyway.
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    As a passionate fan of the game I can see some collectors hatred of the card. Clemente has been elevated to a status few achieve in the sport. He transcended the game and because of that he has an extremely devoted following in the hobby. I am from Baltimore now can I see my older brother in 1971 marking that 66 Clemente in his shoebox under his bed up after 1971 of course!!! As a kid I would have to.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    what makes this thread more compelling and fun is the defensive position being taken by the seller with regard to the appropriate grading interpretation of the card.

    it doesn't really matter what the number is on the flip. at least, i don't give a crap about it. let me tell you why, Bobby.

    because, regardless of what Joe says in a video you watched or on a website tutorial, you've missed the point completely.

    in the PSA vernacular there is a term called "eye appeal" which, in some cases is allowed to contribute to the overall grade.

    so, PSA missed the mark on this one. heh heh. in the eye appeal category it deserves no better than zero.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    This could have been from my childhood....nice card?

    image
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    at least it's closer to the exponential power of nada. image

    why it's necessary to grade and slab stuff like that is beyond my comprehension. but, were all in it together. party on.
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just curious have the card doctors figured out how to remove written ink from cards?

  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    i'd be a lesser man if not for the opportunity to stick to Bobby any time he hands me a grenade. image

    he can do whatever he wants to. free enterprisers we are.

    never had a problem with creativity, either. just not in a slab. card saver works fine. here's one of my favorite defacements.

    image

    image
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>A card with a tiny surface wrinkle HAS to get graded a '5', because that is a hidden defect. If that card didn't get a '5', and someone spent '8', or '8.5' money on the card, and then found a surface wrinkle on it, how pissed do you think that buyer would be!?!?!?! I can promise you there would be a thread started on this board about how a seller is not honoring a return because the card is graded, and the buyer overpaid anywhere from several hundred to several thousand. >>



    Now that PSA has given such cards a '5' (or 6) for years, they have to be consistent and keep doing it. But, they easily could have given them a 7 or 8 at the beginning. A hidden flaw knocks the grade down to a 5? A visible flaw sometimes doesn't even do that.
  • LarkinCollectorLarkinCollector Posts: 8,975 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i'd be a lesser man if not for the opportunity to stick to Bobby any time he hands me a grenade. image

    he can do whatever he wants to. free enterprisers we are.

    never had a problem with creativity, either. just not in a slab. card saver works fine. here's one of my favorite defacements.

    image >>


    How could a team only score 10 points in an entire season? Welcome back, bobby image
    Who is the Golf Card Guy?
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    lol...thanks...Im sure I wasn't missed.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    some folks get more conspicuous in their absence.
  • DezHoodDezHood Posts: 145 ✭


    << <i>How could a team only score 10 points in an entire season? >>



    I know some of this because the 35 Chicle set reflects the 34 season and I looked into it. I don't think they played the whole season - they played like 8 games then got suspended for not paying dues. One of the Chicle cards is of a St. Louis Gunner which took over the rest of the Reds schedule and probably scored at least a few points. 10 points in 8 games is still bad, but its not like 10 points in today's 16 game high scoring NFL, games were lower scoring, scoreless ties and low scoring ties (3-3 etc.) more common.
  • bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭
    Card's first sale was for $12....Non paying bidder. 2nd sale was for $3.85. Both sales prices were less than the cost of the card and grading.
  • KbKardsKbKards Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭
    In the past PSA would not holder a MK type card when the MK was offensive in nature or ridiculed the player pictured like the 1967 Clemente in question. The cutoff would require a judgement call to be made by the grader and I think most collectors of professionally graded cards would say he got it wrong here and should not have allowed the card to be holdered due to the nature of the MK.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭


    << <i>what makes this thread more compelling and fun is the defensive position being taken by the seller with regard to the appropriate grading interpretation of the card. >>



    Are you saying Bobby is the seller?
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