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Ar vs Ag ...

So, before you dismiss this as a dumb question (if you haven't already) ... I have seen MANY numismatic sources using "AR" to indicate silver. I actually never noticed it until recently, so perhaps this is a new fad going around. My question is why? The correct abbreviation for silver (aka Argentum) is "Ag." And yet, so many auction sites and dealers are doing this, it caused me to question my education to the point where I actually GOOGLED it!!! thinking I was crazy!!!!!

So what is the deal? image
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Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ag is the correct chemical symbol, but I have seen AR in many an old numismatic reference. I suspect it is one of those things in life that just do not matter.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • A good question.

    Silver is AG as an element, but AR for Argentum in Latin. AR as en element is Argon.

    Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference.

    And just for the heck of it - copper is CU as an element and CU for cuprum in Latin, so again, no difference.

    Edit for spelling.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A good question.

    Silver is AG as an element, but AR for Argentum in Latin. AR as en element is Argon.

    Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference. >>




    Beat me to it.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,942 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference.

    And just for the heck of it - copper is CU as an element and CU for cuprum in Latin, so again, no difference. >>


    Gold ancients are often described with AV rather than AU. And ancient bronzes are referred to with the abbreviation AE (aes = bronze).
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Actually, Av and Au are the same difference because in Latin / Roman they wrote all "U" letters as "V." But good thinking.

    Perhaps the captain is right (he usually is) but my 1990 edition of Krause (ok not the most authoritative BUT definitely the most wide-spread reference amongst collectors) says Ag ...

    image

    I studied Latin, and have not seen "AR" used as that abbreviation. But it was years ago so I could have simply forgotten. Thanks for that note, DeliaBug!
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

    Amat Colligendo Focum

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  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>



    In Wisconsin, they think of Aaron Rodgers!image
    theknowitalltroll;
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A good question.

    Silver is AG as an element, but AR for Argentum in Latin. AR as en element is Argon.

    Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference.

    And just for the heck of it - copper is CU as an element and CU for cuprum in Latin, so again, no difference.

    Edit for spelling. >>



    Interesting info here and here, but no explanation for why the specific abbreviations were chosen when they were assigned.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • coin4salecoin4sale Posts: 375 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>



    Ditto.



    BT&C
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>

    Of course, as with all romance languages, this is derived from the Latin "argentum."

    The consensus on both forums (light / dark) seems to be this: nobody knows why some say AR when discussing silver coins, particularly ancients, except that it's been done for a while and could even be called tradition. Oh well. Capt was right after all image
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

    Amat Colligendo Focum

    Top 10FOR SALE

    image
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    << Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>

    "Of course, as with all romance languages, this is derived from the Latin "argentum.""


    No. For example, the Spanish equivalent is plata, the Portuguese equivalent is prata.



    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Ag is the correct chemical symbol, but I have seen AR in many an old numismatic reference. I suspect it is one of those things in life that just do not matter. >>



    Amazing that the older I get, the more of these I notice. :-)
    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,187 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A good question.

    Silver is AG as an element, but AR for Argentum in Latin. AR as en element is Argon.

    Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference.

    And just for the heck of it - copper is CU as an element and CU for cuprum in Latin, so again, no difference.

    Edit for spelling. >>



    As written, the above is incorrect and I am somewhat surprised that no one has yet pointed this out. Chemical elements have only their first letter capitalized while the second, when needed, is lower case.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

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  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>A good question.

    Silver is AG as an element, but AR for Argentum in Latin. AR as en element is Argon.

    Gold however is AU as an element and AU for Aurum in Latin, so no difference.

    And just for the heck of it - copper is CU as an element and CU for cuprum in Latin, so again, no difference.

    Edit for spelling. >>



    As written, the above is incorrect and I am somewhat surprised that no one has yet pointed this out. Chemical elements have only their first letter capitalized while the second, when needed, is lower case. >>




    True, but I have seen numerous medals stamped in caps in their rims (with AR, for example).
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i><< Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>

    "Of course, as with all romance languages, this is derived from the Latin "argentum.""


    No. For example, the Spanish equivalent is plata, the Portuguese equivalent is prata. >>




    Argent and plata are both derived from Latin. There were two main forms of Latin, high/classical and low/vulgar.

    Argent (and Italian argento) came from classical Latin "argentum."

    Plata and prata came from vulgar latin "platta," a flat metal plate.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,111 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i><< Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>

    "Of course, as with all romance languages, this is derived from the Latin "argentum.""


    No. For example, the Spanish equivalent is plata, the Portuguese equivalent is prata. >>




    Argent and plata are both derived from Latin. There were two main forms of Latin, high/classical and low/vulgar.

    Argent (and Italian argento) came from classical Latin "argentum."

    Plata and prata came from vulgar latin "platta," a flat metal plate. >>



    And if the dishes you ate off of were made of silver, then the name of the object became synonymous with the name of the composition.

    How many Americans refer to the knives, forks and spoons collectively as "the silver," even though we are many generations removed from having those items made in silver from common usage?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i><< Whenever I see the abbreviation AR, I think 'argent,' the French word for silver. >>

    "Of course, as with all romance languages, this is derived from the Latin "argentum.""


    No. For example, the Spanish equivalent is plata, the Portuguese equivalent is prata. >>




    Argent and plata are both derived from Latin. There were two main forms of Latin, high/classical and low/vulgar.

    Argent (and Italian argento) came from classical Latin "argentum."

    Plata and prata came from vulgar latin "platta," a flat metal plate. >>



    And if the dishes you ate off of were made of silver, then the name of the object became synonymous with the name of the composition.

    How many Americans refer to the knives, forks and spoons collectively as "the silver," even though we are many generations removed from having those items made in silver from common usage? >>



    Silverware is still quite common.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Such wonderful tangents here! I am so glad you guys took this seriously enough to explore the topic thoroughly.

    Here is a very interesting perspective from the darkside thread, which I thought you'd enjoy ...


    << <i>The unscientific symbolic Latin abbreviations of AR for Silver, AE (AES) = Bronze or Copper, AV= Gold, EL= Electrum, BI= Billon, will likely never switch to the periodic table symbols. Switching would improperly describe many coins from a scientific point of View. The symbolic abbreviations are used to describe/group ancient coins by their intended primary component. Some ancient coins contain less than 50% of their primary element and using a periodic element such as AG instead of AR would not necessarily be accurate. However, The periodic tables are used scientifically in ancient numismatics when describing a coins specific metal content/analysis.
    -AncientGalleonLLC >>



    PS: Thank you, Kove for having my back imageimage
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

    Amat Colligendo Focum

    Top 10FOR SALE

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Ag is the correct chemical symbol, but I have seen AR in many an old numismatic reference. I suspect it is one of those things in life that just do not matter.

    So Ag is the correct chemical symbol but Ar is the correct numismatic symbol?

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AR = Aria Resort................................................not silver.

    bob :)
    AUandAG

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh well... I have used Ag most of my life (at least as long as I was aware of elemental silver).... and although I have seen Ar, I always considered it error. So... back to my stacks of Ag and Au.... :D;) Cheers, RickO

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Ag is the correct chemical symbol, but I have seen AR in many an old numismatic reference. I suspect it is one of those things in life that just do not matter.

    So Ag is the correct chemical symbol but Ar is the correct numismatic symbol?

    Through common usage I think that both are correct for a numismatic usage.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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