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Is it possible for some athletes to choke under big time pressure ?

1970s1970s Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Looks like Clayton Kershaw just melts down in the post-season.

Is there any other player you remember in any sport that has uncharacteristically bad performances in the post season like Kershaw ?


In hockey I can think of Rick Nash. The guy is horrible in the post season.

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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there any other player you remember in any sport that has uncharacteristically bad performances in the post season like Kershaw ? >>



    No, but I can certainly think of a manager, and it is killing me because I am a huge fan. What a disaster.
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Need a much larger sample size before drawing a conclusion about Kershaw. Players almost always revert to their career mean if given enough opportunities. These guys wouldn't be at the major league level in the first place if they couldn't handle pressure.


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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Need a much larger sample size before drawing a conclusion about Kershaw. Players almost always revert to their career mean if given enough opportunities. These guys wouldn't be at the major league level in the first place if they couldn't handle pressure. >>




    I've heard this before, but may I ask why a larger sample size is needed ?

    If you look at Kershaw's regular season W-L's, he wins every 2 out of 3 games.

    Put those numbers in the post season and he should be 4-2 now with a 2 something era.

    In my opinion, as of now, Kershaw is a choker in the postseason, but he still has time to change that fact.


    2013 Kershaw was 16-9 with a 1.83 era in the regular season. Post-season he was horrible.
    2014 Kershaw was 21-3 with a 1.77 era. Post-season has begun as another disaster.

    Is it safe to say that as of now Kershaw chokes in the post-season, but he still has a long time to redeem himself ? >>



    Jack Morris is almost universally considered a "clutch" postseason pitcher due to his outstanding performance in the 1991 postseason, but when you look at his entire record in the postseason, you see his career postseason ERA is actually 3.80, or 1/10 of a run below his career ERA of 3.90.

    Barry Bonds was considered an abject failure in the postseason till 2002, when he hit .470 with 4 HRs and a .700 OBP% in the World Series.



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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You're most likely right Grote.

    However, Rick Nash is just about a point per game guy in the NHL regular season.

    In the post-season he has played 41 games with only 18 points. One could argue that in the post-season the competition gets much
    tougher.

    Perhaps Kershaw is just suffering from facing tougher opponents in the post-season, especially the Cardinals, where Kershaw has a 3.40
    era against them lifetime. >>



    That is a valid point~the competition in the postseason is obviously at a higher level than the regular season where Kershaw doesn't get to feast upon sub .500 teams. Still, for a pitcher of his talent, given enough opportunities, I believe he will at least resemble the dominant pitcher he is. I would be shocked if he doesn't pitch very well in Game 4.


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    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭
    Each season clutch and choke are determined by a small sample, as Grote has noted.
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    galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kershaw's next start is going to speak volumes. I tentatively say he's going to be dominant, but then again, I said that prior to last night's game, too. If the light-hitting Cardinals (24th in runs scored in '14) get to him for a third straight postseason game, the concerns should then be apt.

    I will say this, however. A portion of the blame needs to be extracted from Kershaw and transformed into credit for St. Louis. If any team can put aside insurmountable odds and overcome, it's the Cardinals. Lest we forget they were a strike away from defeat in Game 6 of the WS back in '11, yet ultimately won a championship. The very next season they were down 6-0 in the 3rd inning of Game 5 of the NLDS. When the 9th inning rolled around, they were down to their final strike five times against the Nationals. When the next series got underway, it was St. Louis playing and not Washington.

    And for the record, I'm not a Cards fan. I'm just a baseball junkie who can appreciate an organization that has perfected the art of cultivating a winning atmosphere.

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    larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Barry Bonds was considered an abject failure in the postseason till 2002, when he hit .470 with 4 HRs and a .700 OBP% in the World Series. >>



    This is exactly who came to mind for me too. Although maybe Kershaw needs to add a little something to his diet to be more successful!?

    I would not yet conclude that Kershaw is a choker in the post season. Hopefully he'll have about 4 more starts this post season to prove this theory wrong.
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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I will say this, however. A portion of the blame needs to be extracted from Kershaw and transformed into credit for St. Louis. If any team can put aside insurmountable odds and overcome, it's the Cardinals. Lest we forget they were a strike away from defeat in Game 6 of the WS back in '11, yet ultimately won a championship. The very next season they were down 6-0 in the 3rd inning of Game 5 of the NLDS. When the 9th inning rolled around, they were down to their final strike five times against the Nationals. When the next series got underway, it was St. Louis playing and not Washington. >>



    I agree. The St. Louis Cardinals are an incredible organization.
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I will say this, however. A portion of the blame needs to be extracted from Kershaw and transformed into credit for St. Louis. If any team can put aside insurmountable odds and overcome, it's the Cardinals. Lest we forget they were a strike away from defeat in Game 6 of the WS back in '11, yet ultimately won a championship. The very next season they were down 6-0 in the 3rd inning of Game 5 of the NLDS. When the 9th inning rolled around, they were down to their final strike five times against the Nationals. When the next series got underway, it was St. Louis playing and not Washington. >>



    I agree. The St. Louis Cardinals are an incredible organization. >>



    They are the NL version of the Yankees, Mike.. image


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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It takes more than 2 years to establish the choke reputation. But after 6 years.....yes.










    image
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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>They are the NL version of the Yankees, Mike.. >>



    I just told my wife that very same thing only one hour ago. Unfortunately, she does not find these postseason games as exciting as I do. She just left for Walmart to purchase some Halloween decorations.
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They are the NL version of the Yankees, Mike.. >>



    I just told my wife that very same thing only one hour ago. Unfortunately, she does not find these postseason games as exciting as I do. She just left for Walmart to purchase some Halloween decorations. >>



    image


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    pocketpiececommemspocketpiececommems Posts: 5,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Buffalo Bills lose in the Super Bowl 4 times. Do they need 2 more tries in order to call it a choke?
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    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Buffalo Bills lose in the Super Bowl 4 times. Do they need 2 more tries in order to call it a choke? >>



    So the whole team collectively could not take the pressure of the SB? Cmon.
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    TennisCoachTennisCoach Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    I think there is a distinction to be made between a player that struggled in the post season and a player or team that lost despite having the game essentially won. For instance Prince Fielder is a player that has struggled in the post season where his numbers are down significantly compared to his regular season productivity. However what the Oilers did against the Bills in the 93' playoffs up 35-3 in the 2nd half, well that is something entirely different. There is no way a team as talented as the Oilers were that year should have given up a 32 point lead against anybody. Give credit to the Bills for running their no-huddle offense to near perfection, but that Houston defense looked lost out there. Guys were scrambling around often covering the same guy as their teammate while another player ran wide open along the sidelines. The bills would come up to the line and at the snap the Houston defense looked like they were running a fire drill wondering who to cover. Reich just stood back there and attacked them relentlessly with big plays. Warren Moon could hardly believe what he was seeing out there, he then started to see more pressure and instead of making the high percentage play he was trying to fit balls into tight windows.

    I remember the University of Minnesota in one of the bowl games about 6 or 7 years ago had a 30+ point lead against Texas Tech in the second half. Sure enough Graham Harrell got on a roll in the second half and Minnesota couldn't seem to tackle anybody. They were taking the wrong angles, guys out of position, not wrapping up, all the classic things to give up big plays. The Gophers could have run a prevent defense the whole 2nd half and still won that game, but no, they wanted to miss tackles and let a 7 yard play turn into a 30 yard play. Harrell just waited till the defense started playing tighter coverage and then hit them on deeper routes.

    I also remember a Monday night game between the Jets and Dolphins, it was a while ago maybe 12 years or something. Vinny Testaverde was quarterbacking the Jets and they were down 30-7 going into the 4th quarter. Normally the Jets that year would have just went through the motions and called it a night, but this was the Dolphins and it was a rivalry game for the Jets. So they just attacked the Dolphins relentlessly in that 4th quarter, you kept expecting the Dolphins defense to eventually make a play, I mean Testaverde had made some bad throws late in games before. And that was the problem, the Dolphins kept playing not to lose instead of staying aggressive and sure enough Vinny with his strong arm began zipping balls past defenders throwing it where only his guys could catch it. I remember at the end of he 3rd quarter the fans were booing pretty loud and the announcers started talking about next weeks game and trying to take attention away from all the fans filing out of the stadium. However two scores later they started coming back in and the boos changed to cheers as all of sudden this game became a really big deal. The Dolphins began trying to hard on offense trying to make plays that weren't there and getting away from the match-ups they had success with in the first half. zach Thomas was one of the leaders on that Dolphin's defense and he was a tackling machine. He should got everyone together and made sure they were on the same page as to how they were going to slow down that Jets offense. But ultimately they blew the lead and the game and that loss took more than a couple weeks to get over I can tell you that. It looked like Wayne Chrebet could not be covered out there, he was just running around like a little rocket darting this way and that finding the soft spots in the defense. And once he catches it, its like trying to tackle one of those scat backs on punt returns. Chrebet didn't have great straight line speed, but he could stop and change direction with the best of them. I would say the Dolphins did more than struggle in the 4th quarter that Monday night.

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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,535 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buffalo Bills lose in the Super Bowl 4 times. Do they need 2 more tries in order to call it a choke? >>



    Personally, I think winning the AFC conference championship four straight seasons and reaching the Super Bowl four straight years is a tremendous feat in itself..


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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Personally, I think winning the AFC conference championship four straight seasons and reaching the Super Bowl four straight years is a tremendous feat in itself.. >>



    You must be a New York Jets fan. image
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,514 ✭✭✭✭
    AROD or Achoke

    Just about every time the Yankees needed him to hit or team hit...he struck out or popped up.

    Just horrible to watch
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    mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>AROD or Achoke

    Just about every time the Yankees needed him to hit or team hit...he struck out or popped up.

    Just horrible to watch >>



    When compared to their own average, who has hit better in their career with men on base, Jeter or ARod? Surprise......ARod has. How about "late & close" situations? They're tied. How about high leverage situations? ARod. Playoffs? Jeter.

    Basically what I'm saying is, ARod isn't nearly the choker that people think he is, and Jeter isn't exactly "Captain Clutch".
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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭
    I am shocked to see MLB Fan 2 hijack a thread about athletes choking under big-time pressure in order to bash Derek Jeter. image
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I am shocked to see MLB Fan 2 hijack a thread about athletes choking under big-time pressure in order to bash Derek Jeter. image >>



    To be fair, I'm bashing the Jeter overraters, not Jeter himself.
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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>To be fair, I'm bashing the Jeter overraters, not Jeter himself. >>



    Fair enough.

    image
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kershaw had great stuff today. Had given up one hit thru 6. But once again, this is St. Louis we're talking about. Unless you get them out 27 times with the lead, they're never dead.

    If you love baseball, watching STL play is a beautiful thing to behold. An intrepid bunch, year in and year out.
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    MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If you love baseball, watching STL play is a beautiful thing to behold. >>



    I totally agree.
    "Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
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    larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If you love baseball, watching STL play is a beautiful thing to behold. >>



    I totally agree. >>




    True. Should be a good series with the Giants.

    As for Kershaw he pitched great... for 6. If the game only ended there. Right now I have to 1970s is right and Kershaw is a choker. Hopefully next year he can come back strong.
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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm a serious Cardinal fan, always have been...and I'm looking forward to the NLCS.
    That said, I don't think Kershaw is a choker. He was money for them throughout the season. For some reason the Cards seem to be able to get him off his game though.
    If anyone choked in the NLDS it was Yasiel Puig. 8 strikeouts, whined like a baby after each one, beat up his bat...I don't blame Mattingly for pulling him from the Game 4 lineup. He certainly wasn't helping the team. First smart managerial move Mattingly did in the whole series.

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    TennisCoachTennisCoach Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    The Cardinals offense this year doesn't normally score a lot of runs, but they know how to put quality at-bats together to make a pitcher work to get outs. Eventually that pitcher tries to get too careful and that's when he makes a mistake. If you can foul off enough good pitches a pitcher then tries to get you out with his 2nd or 3rd option and that's when he is most likely to leave one over the heart of the plate. The Cardinals are good at getting from the 7th to the 9th inning, but Rosenthal adds a lot of drama to his outings. It seems like every time he tries to close there is one of everything, 1 hit, 1 walk, and 1 Strikeout. But if you have a 97 mph fastball that moves you are bound to get some guys out with that defense playing behind you.

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    ashabbyashabby Posts: 471 ✭
    Choker is a term I think unless you have played or coached gets over used. Match ups matter. Managers often better in post season. Play is at a higher level. I would take his numbers verses teams in post season the last few years to compare. I am not the guy to find those. Did his team mates help him out. Everyone will have off games. Just Much more focus in post season. Your not in the post season with out him.
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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recall Greg Norman, aka The Shark,came up short in a few major/minor tournaments on the last day while leading.
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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course it's possible for athletes to choke under pressure!

    Many sports stars have said that being relaxed during competition makes them better, I am sure some get tense during a critical moment and their performance suffers.

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