Is a cameo designation ever subjective?

Bodin

This was graded ATS as PF68*
The obverse is very-much cameo, however I can't tell on the reverse.

Thinking about sending it back in for review or to our hosts as a crossover in hopes for cameo.....i dunno about that reverse though. What do you think?

lostincoins

I would say the reverse would not show enough cameo effect due to the lettering not showing enough frost. This could be the image or the toning but that is my opinion.

Stuart

Cameo Designation is certainly subjective for Prooflike & Deep Mirror Prooflike Business Strike Morgan Dollars, which are not designated as Cameo or Deep Cameo by the Third Party Grading Services.

However, TPGS's do designate Proof Morgan Dollars as either Cameo or Deep Cameo if they qualify by possessing enough contrast between frosty devices and reflective fields.

keets

due to the lettering

I see this stated quite often and can't understand the reasoning since the frost "fade" typically starts in the center. that is precisely where this coin has frost breaks, also typical, where the wings meet the breast and the top of the wings. the lettering is just fine. I doubt that PCGS will assign the Cameo designation on a crossover or that NGC will do anything on review. they graded it with the "star" as an indication that it is past just a normal PF68 but not with enough contrast(due to the tone) to designate it Cameo.

Neca63

I can tell you with 100% accuracy that the reverse in the photo is definitely not a cameo.
I cannot remember when I was ever so positive about it.
Gee, Come to think of it, it is not even a reverse.
You put up 2 obv. photos.

nankraut

<< <i>I can tell you with 100% accuracy that the reverse in the photo is definitely not a cameo.
I cannot remember when I was ever so positive about it.
Gee, Come to think of it, it is not even a reverse.
You put up 2 obv. photos. >>


Huh? I see Obv & Rev pics. Rev doesn't merit cameo imho.

BryceM

Funny thread title.

All grading is subjective.

TwoSides2aCoin

There's is no doubt about what cameo is. There's nothing but contrast between the field and devices on a cameo coin. The coin shown has cameo effect on the central device (bust) and the motto (IGWT). The toning covers what may or may not be cameo effect, but there's no question with the reverse And in the second photo of the obverse, the cameo effect is questionable altogether.

The star *, methinks is exceptional eye appeal for toning and the cameo effect, imo.

Wabbit2313

The star means the obverse is cameo. Without the toning on the reverse, it might very well be a cam, but they will not give it since there is no way to tell exactly what is under there.

I have several NGC quarters exactly the same way. By the way, that coin is AWESOME!

lostincoins

<< <i>The star means the obverse is cameo. Without the toning on the reverse, it might very well be a cam, but they will not give it since there is no way to tell exactly what is under there.

I have several NGC quarters exactly the same way. By the way, that coin is AWESOME! >>



This Mr Keets is why I stated because of the lettering and toning.

crypto79

People sometimes forget that cameo is measured in contrast and not nessiccarly frost. If the fields have too much starburst effect or simply lack depth, it can have all the frost in the world and not get the designation.

Casman

I had one that was a 67CAM one week and 2 weeks later a 68 (NO CAM) so yes I say it's very subjective and varies from week to week.

Your coins looks like it spent some time in a PCI holder.

astrorat

<< <i>Funny thread title.

All grading is subjective. >>

Ditto

LindeDad

<< <i>Funny thread title.

All grading is subjective. >>




Yep grade opinions and good cup of coffee cost about the same. What's good to one might be strong to another.

keets

Yep grade opinions and good cup of coffee cost about the same.

grade opinion at major TPG, $20++, cup of coffee at Starbucks, $5, this thread=priceless.

ricko

Amazing question..... as stated above, all grading is subjective...an opinion, hopefully backed by some level of experience....Cheers, RickO

LindeDad

<< <i>Yep grade opinions and good cup of coffee cost about the same.

grade opinion at major TPG, $20++, cup of coffee at Starbucks, $5, this thread=priceless. >>




Submit in bulk, and drink by the pot.

IrishMikey

<< <i>Cameo Designation is certainly subjective for Prooflike & Deep Mirror Prooflike Business Strike Morgan Dollars, which are not designated as Cameo or Deep Cameo by the Third Party Grading Services.

However, TPGS's do designate Proof Morgan Dollars as either Cameo or Deep Cameo if they qualify by possessing enough contrast between frosty devices and reflective fields. >>


ANACS will identify a Morgan dollar as "Cameo PL" or "Cameo DMPL." They also list Proof coins as "Obverse Cameo" if
the obverse makes it and the reverse does not, like the coin shown here. Not sure if other grading services offer these
designations.

Broadstruck

Based on the pics I don't see this as a cameo but it looks like it would be very pretty in hand.

Bodin

<< <i>

<< <i>Funny thread title.

All grading is subjective. >>




Yep grade opinions and good cup of coffee cost about the same. What's good to one might be strong to another. >>



My point being, is cameo a black or white circumstance(pun intended)
In other words, has anyone ever submitted a coin that was NOT graded cameo, but then got the designation after another submission? Or WAS cameo and lost it after submission?
Is there a gray area?
Subjective in the way that if I submitted the color blue: the graders wouldn't have to think about it, in other words, NOT opinion. Fact. Is it blue? Yes or no? 100 out of 100 graders would say yes.

I know, I know: graders? blue? WTF? I just woke up. Late night. Follow me here....

If I submitted this coin 1000 times, without a doubt, 1000 times would it come back without a cameo designation?......or for the occasional, borderline-cameo coin to get a cameo designation.....you MIGHT get lucky.

Bodin

The consensus appears that this coin has no chance at a cameo designation based on the reverse.
Thanks everyone for your input.

Broadstruck

<< <i>If I submitted this coin 1000 times, without a doubt, 1000 times would it come back without a cameo designation?......or for the occasional, borderline-cameo coin to get a cameo designation.....you MIGHT get lucky. >>



Sounds like fun... Please report back on the outcome of all 1000 submissions!

lostincoins

<< <i>

<< <i>If I submitted this coin 1000 times, without a doubt, 1000 times would it come back without a cameo designation?......or for the occasional, borderline-cameo coin to get a cameo designation.....you MIGHT get lucky. >>



Sounds like fun... Please report back on the outcome of all 1000 submissions! >>



+1 on this! When do you plan to start sending it in as 1000 submissions is going to take some time with shipping and all. Are you going to speed things up by using the express option?

BryceM

To a scientist, all opinions are subjective. Objective qualities can be measured or identified with precision. Coins do not have grades or designations. They have mass, a diameter, a reed count, and a precise composition. These things are objective. Die pairings, die states, and completeness of strike can be objective if carefully measured. Whether or not a coin is given a certain designation (FH, FBL, FB, DMPL, FS, PL, CAM) is still subjective, even if 100 out of 100 experts agree.

Baley

<< <i>To a scientist, all opinions are subjective. Objective qualities can be measured or identified with precision. Coins do not have grades or designations. They have mass, a diameter, a reed count, and a precise composition. These things are objective. Die pairings, die states, and completeness of strike can be objective if carefully measured. Whether or not a coin is given a certain designation (FH, FBL, FB, DMPL, FS, PL, CAM) is still subjective, even if 100 out of 100 experts agree. >>



Part of the problem is binary or trinary categories (DMPL, PL, or neither) for phenomena that occur along a spectrum, the strike designations are perfect examples also.

I've long been a proponent of percentiles, and think some innovator will go there someday, describing coins in terms of how full the strike for the issue, how deep the cameo for the year, how original looking the surfaces are, for the age, etc... and then we can all resubmit everything to get the new way, instead of resubmitting liner coins in the 50, 60, and 70% range trying for the designation

ModCrewman

Heavily subjective.

I've had coins not get the designation, sold it on the BST, and had the new owner resubmit and receive a CAM designation at the same grade, I've had coins come back without the designation and crack and resubmit and come back a grade lower in a CAM holder. I've had coins with heavy toning receive the designation and also had coins with heavy toning and contrast not receive the designation. I believe your coin would receive a CAM after a dip to remove the toning, but I'd also never do so as the coin is extremely attractive. You know what you have and the designation isn't worth that much to me on a coin as attractive as this one.

In a 68 CAM holder that coin is worth too much for the TPG to take the risk, I believe that I've experienced the same thing a number of times...you get the high grade and not the designation.

I think on 10 submissions this one might make it into a CAM holder 1 out of 10 times.

keets

this particular coin would 100% not designate with PCGS or NGC, they simply do not designate coins from this era that are this heavily toned. it may do so at ANACS(but what's the use, right?) and anyone in their right mind would absolutely not dip this beauty.

with all that said, can you identify the source of the tone?? I would suspect either long term in a Capital type holder or else similar time in an album, probably a Whitman.

Bodin

<< <i>this particular coin would 100% not designate with PCGS or NGC, they simply do not designate coins from this era that are this heavily toned. it may do so at ANACS(but what's the use, right?) and anyone in their right mind would absolutely not dip this beauty.

with all that said, can you identify the source of the tone?? I would suspect either long term in a Capital type holder ...... >>



DING DING DING!!!!!

SanctionII

A CAM, DCAM or brilliant proof designation by a TPG is definitely subjective. As is the numerical grade assigned by a TPG. As is a TPG decision to body bag, or to Genuine a coin. As is other designations (RD, RB, BN, FBL, FH etc.).

With respect to whether the pictured 1951 proof quarter would (should) receive a CAM designation, I guess one first has to define what a Cameo proof is.

If the definition of a Cameo proof is one that has frosted devices and mirrored fields (thus giving the required contrast between the frosted devices and mirrored fields), then the pictured coin would not and should not (IMO) receive a CAM designation. The frosted devices appear to be present on both sides in the requisite thickness and uniformity. In fact the frost may be sufficient to be called DCAM frost. However, the fields are toned over to such a degree that required mirrored fields are not present. The appearance of the fields underneath the toning may be sufficient to warrant a CAM designation, but the toning deprives the coin of having the mirrored fields required for the designation.

The coin thus is in a "hmmmm" category (leave as is or remove the toning).

The coin, with the toning, may be wholly "original" [whatever that means] and it may also have positive eye appeal. Some collectors, especially those who like toning and/or originality, would leave the coin as it is, without the CAM designation. Other collectors who love Cameo proofs and the black and white contrast on silver proofs such as the pictured quarter would want the toning removed to return the coin to its "as minted" glory.

I would leave the coin as is (if it has positive eye appeal in hand and if the toning is stable and not heading towards terminal). Once dipped it will not have the current toning. Other 1951 proof quarters that are black and white Cameos are available in the marketplace [though 1951 CAM quarters are not around in huge numbers] so a collector can keep the toned example and then find an untoned example of the same coin and have a bookend set.

The opening post in this thread, plus the replies thus far, contain a good discussion about this lovely and interesting coin. However the discussion so far has missed a certain attribute of the coin.

Who will be the first to notice same and comment about it?

Cameonut

Nice tumor variety! You can tell by the die polishing on the temple.

The discussion here is interesting to me. But where I land on this is that it will not cameo at NGC or PCGS as long as it remains toned. I am not advocating dipping it, I like it the way it is and think it is graded properly as a non-cameo.

I have several similar quarters that have colored toning in the fields and they are not designated cameos (sorry, no pics).

SanctionII

Not surprising that Cameonut would be the one to pick up on the fact that the pictured coin is the "Tumor Variety".

I cherrypicked a raw 1951 tumor Variety proof quarter that looks just like the pictured coin, except it has no toning. It is (IMO) a lock Cameo.

SanctionII

P.S. Thanks for the photo of the 1951 proof set in a Capital Holder.

Can you take another photo of the obverse and reverse of the half dollar. From your photo of the proof set the obverse of the half dollar also looks like it my warrant a CAM designation (though the photo of the obverse of the half is fuzzy and there is no photo of the reverse).

keets

the coins look like they were chosen by a collector with a good eye intent on putting together choice coins with contrast. it is difficult from this year, so much so that the date has passed the previous tear in pricing. if I'm thinking right, the 1951 Set has stayed the same over the past several years while other early dates have dropped.

Bodin

<< <i>P.S. Thanks for the photo of the 1951 proof set in a Capital Holder.

Can you take another photo of the obverse and reverse of the half dollar. From your photo of the proof set the obverse of the half dollar also looks like it my warrant a CAM designation (though the photo of the obverse of the half is fuzzy and there is no photo of the reverse). >>



sellers photo:
NGC PF67 CA

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>Yep grade opinions and good cup of coffee cost about the same.

grade opinion at major TPG, $20++, cup of coffee at Starbucks, $5, this thread=priceless. >>




Submit in bulk, and drink by the pot. >>

Heh heh!

Good luck submitting 100 Silver Proof Washingtons with the limit of 4 different dates. I suppose it could be done but then what to do with all those non-cam 64 proofs??

keets

now that Half-Dollar looks like it might benefit from conservation.

brg5658

<< <i>The star means the obverse is cameo. Without the toning on the reverse, it might very well be a cam, but they will not give it since there is no way to tell exactly what is under there.

I have several NGC quarters exactly the same way. By the way, that coin is AWESOME! >>




The star on NGC graded coins that are proofs can mean many different things.

1) One sided cameo, not quite the other side.
2) Almost cameo on both sides
3) Exceptional eye appeal (i.e., color, luster, etc)

There is NO way to know for which of these reasons this coin got a star. So to say that the star means the obverse is cameo is impossible to know.

Wabbit2313

That half dollar and a quick dip will = a nice graded coin.