i don't think jeter is the greatest player ever, but i think i can make a pretty good argument he is.
No, you cannot. He is nowhere near the greatest player ever. He is not the greatest player ever on his team. He is not the greatest player ever at his position. He was a great player, and an easy HOFer. To argue that he is the greatest player ever is silly. He was a terrible defensive shortstop. There are many players who were great offensively and defensively (Schmidt and Mays come to mind immediately). In the history of the Yankees Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle were clearly better. You can make a case for Dickey and Berra. Jeter is 77th all-time in WAR. You can argue the merits of WAR, but it is a long way from 77th to 1st.
<< <i>He holds the record for holding records on the team that is the overall best team in MLB history! >>
Like the strikeout record. Far more than anyone else. Also the "lack-of-range" record, considered by fans to be the most unbreakable record in baseball.
A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. >>
I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better. Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head. So top 25 is out of the question.
<< <i>Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
Regardless, I still say that a decent case can certainly be made. It does not mean that the case will prevail, but it certainly can be made.
Where does all of the hate come from? It is very unpleasant.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
I am just curious. What is it about Derek Jeter that upsets so many baseball fans? I agree that he was not as good as many other New York Yankees players. As a matter of fact, there are several other players who have played on other teams that I like more. However, there is no denying that he was very good for the game over the course of the past twenty years. He left very little to criticize.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better. Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head. So top 25 is out of the question. >>
We should create a list. Perhaps as a new topic.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better. Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head. So top 25 is out of the question. >>
We should create a list. Perhaps as a new topic. >>
Im good with that! I love lists! Especially when people understand Im right lol
<< <i>I am just curious. What is it about Derek Jeter that upsets so many baseball fans? I agree that he was not as good as many other New York Yankees players. As a matter of fact, there are several other players who have played on other teams that I like more. However, there is no denying that he was very good for the game over the course of the past twenty years. He left very little to criticize. >>
However, there is no denying that he was very good for the game over the course of the past twenty years. He left very little to criticize. Please see above bolded text. He did everything the right way. He won with grace. He lost with dignity. He won 5 World Series rings. He had clutch hits. He played with grace and with pride. He had many beautiful girlfriends. He played in NY for 20 years with never a hint of scandal (in a period where Mickey and Whitey and Billy would have been hammered mercilessly for their dalliances) And he was damn good. Having all those tic marks in your "Win" column makes people jealous. What we love in America is to tear our stars down almost as much as anything. He never gave people that ability.
Skin2 - I love the way you think you know everything and since you think Jeter is not a great player......he is not because YOU know he is not.
Well, while he is not the best all round player.....he is probably better than most that YOU think is better.
It's hard to pick greatest player ever because that would include everything......hitting, speed, power and fielding. Jeter ranks good to real good in most of these.....but not the top in any.
If I were hard pressed to pick such a person......the first to come to mind (to me) would be Willie Mays. Some of the players you think are better than Jeter all round.....a lot of us would disagree with.
<< <i>I am just curious. What is it about Derek Jeter that upsets so many baseball fans? . >>
I can't speak to that, as Jeter does not upset me. I have a great deal of respect for the guy.
But if I honestly look at some of the careers of many of the greatest players of all time, Jeter's numbers just aren't there in my opinion.
As a matter of fact, years ago the talk was the two greatest shortstops in the game were Alex Rodriguez and Nomar Garciaparra, with Jeter in 3rd place on many people's list. Jeter just never had those great seasons statistically to jump him ahead of any of the greats.
Great career. Long career. Great character. Great determination. Played on great teams. Just put up very good numbers, not great numbers. >>
Hits, runs, are top 10 career. Those qualify as great to me. But i think that is one thing that seems to be the knock on Jeter is that none of his stats (outside of hits) really stands out. There is no WOW number. Just really really good season after season. You know he is great (and some of that is the cult of Jeter that has grown over the years) but there isnt one stat that you can point to and say "THERE IT IS THIS PROVES HIS GREATNESS!"
<< <i> Hits, runs, are top 10 career. Those qualify as great to me. But i think that is one thing that seems to be the knock on Jeter is that none of his stats (outside of hits) really stands out. There is no WOW number. Just really really good season after season. You know he is great (and some of that is the cult of Jeter that has grown over the years) but there isnt one stat that you can point to and say "THERE IT IS THIS PROVES HIS GREATNESS!" >>
Kind of like Derek Jeter equals Pete Rose. >>
Outside of the despicable personal failings and complete inability to accept responsibility for his actions it does make for a good parallel.
Derek Jeter and Pete Rose both played hard. That much is undeniable.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
Regardless, I still say that a decent case can certainly be made. It does not mean that the case will prevail, but it certainly can be made.
Where does all of the hate come from? It is very unpleasant. >>
it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. Add in, and understand, that all fanbases are insufferable, but I think one can understand that two east coast baseball fanbases in particular are downright pull the covers over one's head cringe-worthy in their self-absorption. Case in point, there is actual discussion occurring on this board at present with some folks seeming genuinely serious about tagging Jeter one of the top 25 or 50 players of all-time when in reality, he's barely near even the latter. He's a marginally better Barry Larkin who many deemed a borderline HOF candidate. Jeter held on long enough to compile counting stats and distance himself from Larkin offensively but up through 2011 they were largely equals.
Jeter - 70.4 fWAR, 70.1 rWAR and 64.3 WARP Larkin - 69.8 fWAR, 68.9 rWAR and 86.2 WARP
So in reality, when you throw this season out because Jeter is in the running for the Yuniesky Betancourt Award For Onfield Futility, he was Barry Larkin+2 years of counting stats. Sure Jeter was a better hitter, but he is also the worst defensive SS in the history of the game by a Yellowstone margin. Only Michael Young (-71.6) and Toby Harrah (-97.0) had worse than a -50 run value for defense, Jeter will finish up at -159. Had Joe Cronin had the good fortune of better health, Jeter would be Joe Cronin. I really think the Yanks' refusal to move Jeter off of SS 7-8 years ago really hurt his standing in this whole place in history discussion. There would still be detractors because he's a Yankee, but I think more people would think of him differently had he moved off of SS like Ripken or Yount or any other former star SS did.
Now if other folks want to knock the whole (fan/media) portrayal of Jeter being this super unselfish team first player I could listen to that as even putting aside offering to move off of SS for a superior defender in A-rod, you don't need to look that far back to see a certain AB he had against the Red Sox in a key late season game (to determine divisional winner vs wild card) where a certain Michigan born SS had a 20-some odd game hitting streak on the line in the 8th inning with runners on and a highly erratic Red Sox reliever on the bump working with a 3-0 count and promptly following that up with a fourth offering low and outside to where The Captain took an awkward off-balance hack that seemed to serve no other purpose than scrubbing the first base line chalk with a Juan Pierre-esque weak roller and the endgame was the contest remained tied until one of the many relievers that Joe Torre single handedly ended their careers -undoubtedly working on his thirteenth straight day of action- coughed up three runs in the 9th to send the chowders to the divisional win. I'd also be ok with anyone who finds #2's career long desire to create a modern version of Joe DiMaggio in himself acceptable criticism as well. Everything down to dating starlets and then complaining about all the attention and lack of privacy. Jeter seems to be a genuinely good guy who happened to have a really good to excellent long career.
1. Babe Ruth 155.1 2. Ty Cobb 150.9 3. Barry Bonds 142.6 4. Willie Mays 136.4 5. Hank Aaron 131.8 6. Ted Williams 126.3 7. Stan Musial 124.6 8. Tris Speaker 123.6 9. Honus Wagner 123.0 10. Rogers Hornsby 121.6 11. Eddie Collins 119.6 12. Mickey Mantle 116.0 13. Alex Rodriguez 113.0 14. Lou Gehrig 112.1 15. Frank Robinson 106.6 16. Rickey Henderson 104.2 17. Joe Morgan 103.7 18. Mel Ott 103.5 19. Nap Lajoie 97.8 20. Derek Jeter 95.3 21. Jimmie Foxx 94.3 22. Eddie Mathews 93.8 23. Cap Anson 90.9 Mike Schmidt 90.9 25. Chipper Jones 87.4 26. George Brett 84.1 27. Ken Griffey 83.8 28. Albert Pujols 82.6 29. Pete Rose 82.2 Robin Yount 82.2 31. Dan Brouthers 81.6 32. Manny Ramirez 81.2 33. Wade Boggs 80.6 34. Rod Carew 80.4 35. Sam Crawford 79.9 Gary Sheffield 79.9 37. Frank Thomas 79.8 38. Roger Connor 78.8 39. Al Kaline 77.9 40. Carl Yastrzemski 77.7
There is only one player above him who has played in the last twenty years and is not associated with steroids; Rickey Henderson.
Derek Jeter played during the most competitive era is baseball history and managed to compile a career as productive as some of the legends of the game. I do not wish to "rank" Jeter, but he certainly deserves to be considered one of the all time greats.
also he's #46 in offensive fWar fwiw. And perhaps I'm taking things a bit too literally, but it was noted top 25-50 players. No mention of just positional players. Because if you add in pitchers then Jeter is where he should be- #88 with Larkin and Trammell just behind him in the mid 90's. I feel that's where he belongs. Somewhere #75-85 overall.
You guys know Babe Ruth was just a marketing fat slob scumbag right ? Compare it to what anyone thinks the reality of Thanksgiving is. Babe Ruth is as a gimmick item as was the candy bar made after him. All teams back in that day knew marketing. All teams wanted The Babe to go large in their own cities.
Here's something would hope will be copied: 'BABE RUTH WAS SIMPLY A FAT SLOB DRUNK MARKETING PIECE EVERY CITY AND PITCHER OF THE TEAM WANTED HIM TO HIT A DINGER OFF OF THEM ORDER TO SELL TICKETS'.
Comparing Babe Ruth the lowlife yankee to Jeter ? NO comparison.
<< <i>it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. >>
There is nothing "so called" about it. A child could recognize it for what it is. I am the first to criticize the media for their ridiculous coverage of Derek Jeter this baseball season. I have said as much on these message boards. However, the criticism in this thread has nothing to do with the media coverage. As a matter of fact, the word "media" has only appeared once in four pages. I have quoted it above. The criticism is personal, and I simply do not understand why Derek Jeter upsets so many baseball fans as much as he does. If he played on their favorite teams for twenty years, I am convinced that they would feel differently about his legacy.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>You guys know Babe Ruth was just a marketing fat slob scumbag right ? Compare it to what anyone thinks the reality of Thanksgiving is. Babe Ruth is as a gimmick item as was the candy bar made after him. All teams back in that day knew marketing. All teams wanted The Babe to go large in their own cities.
Here's something would hope will be copied: 'BABE RUTH WAS SIMPLY A FAT SLOB DRUNK MARKETING PIECE EVERY CITY AND PITCHER OF THE TEAM WANTED HIM TO HIT A DINGER OFF OF THEM ORDER TO SELL TICKETS'.
Comparing Babe Ruth the lowlife yankee to Jeter ? NO comparison.
Babe Ruth was simply a fat slob NEW YORK pig.
>>
Wow. Just. Wow.
I learned to never argue with an ignoramus. They will drag you down to their level and beat guy with experience. So ill take my leave after that last post of...well, um, yeah.
It's a misconception that Ruth was fat~in fact, for the vast majority of his playing career, he was in excellent shape.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I hooked the post below into the universal baseball fanspeak jargon translator...translations in parentheses:
<< <i>You Jeter bashers (anyone not blindly supporting him) make me laugh!
He holds the (Yankee) record for holding (Yankee) records on the (Yankee) team that is the overall best team in MLB history (according to Yankee Fans)! He played 20 years never getting (caught) in trouble in a city where that is a record in itself. The guy was great (because he's a Yankee) and did it (breathed air, but did little else considered overly exceptional by MLB standards) for 20 years.
Nuff said (I have no facts so will just attempt to end the debate by saying its over). He was great (because he was a Yankee) and will be remembered (by Yankee fanboys and homers, mostly) as great weather ("whether") you bashers (anyone presenting actual stats or facts to dispute claims of greatness) agree or not!
LIVE WITH IT!!!(So there-nana nana boo boo) >>
What can I say; I'm in a great mood and this was just too juicy to pass up. Laugh already...it's a joke.
<< <i>Standing by it. The dude was a marketing tool who's records mean nothing in this day and age. Get with at least the 90's.
BABE RUTH WAS A MARKTING PLOY He was given all his dingers to excite the fans in order to gain fans. >>
I strongly disagree with the "given all his dingers" part (and flat out defy you to show any proof), but as to the marketing part of it...every significant baseball star both then and now was or is used in marketing, both of the league and of various endorsed products/brands. Using your own avatar pic as an example-Johnny Bench famously hawked Krylon paint amongst other things (and currently sells Blue Emu ointment). Does that mean his record means nothing as well?
<< <i>it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. >>
There is nothing "so called" about it. A child could recognize it for what it is. I am the first to criticize the media for their ridiculous coverage of Derek Jeter this baseball season. I have said as much on these message boards. However, the criticism in this thread has nothing to do with the media coverage. As a matter of fact, the word "media" has only appeared once in four pages. I have quoted it above. The criticism is personal, and I simply do not understand why Derek Jeter upsets so many baseball fans as much as he does. If he played on their favorite teams for twenty years, I am convinced that they would feel differently about his legacy. >>
The media coverage is fueling the detractors, here or elsewhere, just as the waaaay over the top Jeter love-in at the All-Star Game...a game that no one, including the players, cared about, did. See the average fan tends to get annoyed when they see a player who wasn't as good as their favorite team's player was, especially when it may be someone in the same position as #2; who played their entire career in one city, like say Tony Gwynn or Chipper Jones, who didn't receive the same adulation because west coast or small market or whatever excuse one would make. Regardless, please highlight where the criticism is "personal" because I haven't seen anything about Jeter in this thread that could or should be considered personal. Perhaps I've glossed over some individual posts, but from the posts I read, pretty much everyone kept their opinions balanced on his on-field performance. I haven't seen anyone talking about his family or girlfriend(s) or his hairline, or his taste in walk-up music, or something else that could be considered personal. I didn't even see anyone criticizing him for announcing that he was taking this year long retirement tour, which would also be a fair criticism considering the attention deflecting, blue collar - Joe Lunchpail aura he tends to emit. So if you're thinking about rolling out some explanation of other folks analyzing his performance/stats and trying to somehow construct a narrative that because others see his performance/stats differently than you do, that it's somehow personal, then no, that's not going to work. I'm completely apathetic towards Jeter, the player and person, and from what I've read in this thread, it's largely the same for others. As I see it, this thread got to 3 pages because a few individuals started tossing around #2's name in a top 25 (or better) all-time player conversation which is completely ridiculous by any statistical measure unless they failed to mention they were filtering it down to top 25 shortstops, or top 25 Yankees only. Had those people merely said, "one of the top players" this thread would have already cashed out.
Jeter or Romo...any thread about either player is almost guaranteed to go 3 pages on this forum.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Nobody is bashing Jeter. The only thing I really bashed is the notion that he was a clutch player that rose to the occasion when needed. As pointed out earlier, that is simply false.
Jeter falls somewhere in the top 75ish all-time.
Top 25 is absurd. The offensive WAR list is only part of the equation. There is more. Actually, offensive WAR isn't that great. Win Probability is better, as it draws from the actual play by play data:
For Post War players only(as the play by play info only goes back to early 50's), he ranks 93rd at 30.87.
Other middle infielders(and catchers for another demanding position)include:
Here are their rankings in Win Probabiliy Added...the most precise offensive measurement.
Joe Morgan 66 Arod 57 Rose 54. Not always a MI. Carew 45 Piazza 39 Biggio 31 Larkin 31
If somebody is claiming Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, then where would that put Larkin who was a far superior defender than Jeter at the same position, and his equal offensively?? Jeter was an awful defensive shortstop.
Piazza's Win Probabiity Added(which is more accurate than WAR) at 39 from the catcher spot provides more value, as does Bench's 30 from the catchers spot. So if you believe in the position adjustment in the offensive WAR that gave jeter an artificially higher ranking, then a catcher's adjustment is worth even more...and those guys are also his equal offensively, and in Bench's case also one of the best defensive catchers ever, so that puts Bench easily ahead of Jeter.
Is Ripken's 15 WPA close enough to add his defensive advantage to overtake Jeter? If I am to be fair, I would have to live by what I always said and take the defensive measurements with a grain of salt, and give the edge to Jeter since the offensive portion is of such a higher validity.
Based on a traditional positional adjustment used in WAR, looking at an estimate of defensive ability, BUT using the better offensive measurement(WPA), then the following guys on that list are clearly ahead of Jeter:
Morgan Arod Piazza Larkin Bench
They are all better offensively(or in Morgan's case way too far ahead offensively) and are either better defensively, or play a more demanding postion for the positional adjustment(catcher).
So if one believes Jeter falls at 23rd all-time, unless Morgan, Arod, Piazza, Larkin, and Bench occupy spots 18-21 all-time, then you have something wrong with your ranking, because the 'non' SS and catchers that are light years better hitters to overcome the positional value like Mantle, Schmidt, Pujols, Cabrerra, Aaron, Mays, Williams, F. Robinson, Musial, Henderson, Chipper, Gwynn, McCovey, Kaline, Clemente, Matthews, Griffey....puts you at your top 25 of POST WAR players.
I didn't even put the likely steroid guys on there, because Bonds is light years better than Jeter.
Then you still have Ruth, Gehrig, Wagner, Cobb, Hornsby, Foxx, etc...that are all better.
Then you have the pitchers(who also happen to be baseball players) Pedro, Maddux, Unit, etc...that are all better.
That makes a top 25 an absurdity, and any argument that somebody contrives for Jeter to overcome those players above, can then also be used to other players ranked below Jeter to make them leap Jeter from the bottom, still resulting in a no chance for a top 25.
Also, keep in mind that nearly all of Jeter's lofty rankings in the advanced metrics comes from the positional value increase given to a SS(like the offensive WAR does), which isn't as valid as the offensive measurements itself without the adjustment...so other sluggers who dwarf him offensively, but fall behind due to the position adjustment, may actually be better...especially when you consider the ease it is to actually replace a SS defensively.
As it stands, a case can be made for Jeter being at the end of the top 50...but then a case can also be made for him being at the end of the top 150. Top 25? No reasonable case can be made.
<< <i>I wonder if Arod will replace Jeter at SS next year if the Yankees can't sign any of the free agent shortstops. >>
I am wondering the same thing 1970s.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>Regardless, please highlight where the criticism is "personal" because I haven't seen anything about Jeter in this thread that could or should be considered personal. >>
Not personal about Derek Jeter's personal life, but personal in regard to so many baseball fans personally not liking him for their own personal reasons. You will have no trouble identifying those replies. You can begin with some of your own.
<< <i>So if you're thinking about rolling out some explanation of other folks analyzing his performance/stats and trying to somehow construct a narrative that because others see his performance/stats differently than you do, that it's somehow personal, then no, that's not going to work. >>
I am not thinking about that at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of the criticism. I simply do not understand the hatred, regardless of whether or not it is shielded by statistics.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i> I am not thinking about that at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of the criticism. I simply do not understand the hatred, regardless of whether or not it is shielded by statistics. >>
The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player.
So far, the only 'criticism' here is that Jeter is 'only' ranked as a top 75 all-time player, because that is the worst 'bashing' in this thread I have seen.
That, and the fact that he does not walk on water during the post season clutch time when it is said he 'rises to the occasion'. That image Yankee fans have painted is simply not true...as pointed out above when he wilted in the ALCS and WS when the situation called for someone to rise to the occasion.
That isn't a criticism of Jeter, but of the fans who are making him something he is not.
He is what he is, a top six all-time SS, and a top 75ish all-time player.
When people start putting him top 25 all-time it is getting silly.
PS. That top 75ish is based purely on career value. If peak value is viewed more prominently, then he drops a little more.
<< <i>The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player. >>
I never said I think that Derek Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, and I certainly am not emotional over this topic. I am not even a big fan of Derek Jeter, although I am a very big fan of the New York Yankees. I am actually a big fan of Don Mattingly. I also liked Robinson Cano better than Derek Jeter, but that is irrelevant. I simply said that a decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. I can't help it if some people choose to emotionally overreact to such an innocent statement.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
By the way Skin 2, Don Mattingly belongs in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
<< <i>The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player. >>
I never said I think that Derek Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, and I certainly am not emotional over this topic. I am not even a big fan of Derek Jeter, although I am a very big fan of the New York Yankees. I am actually a big fan of Don Mattingly. I also liked Robinson Cano better than Derek Jeter, but that is irrelevant. I simply said that a decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. I can't help it if some people choose to emotionally overreact to such an innocent statement. >>
Anyone can construct a 'case' to put any player in the top 25. It doesn't mean it is a decent one. Only a poor case can be made to put him top 25 all-time....not a decent one.
If you aren't emotional about it, then why are you so paranoid in claiming that people are bashing Jeter on here? I don't see anyone bashing him on here. Bashing some of the delusional fans Maybe.
<< <i>What a great ceremony by the Red Sox. Classy, respectful, and light. Well done Boston! >>
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
Perk Dog, what did you think of the tribute to Derek Jeter at Fenway Park today? It was actually much more than I had expected.
"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood."
Comments
No, you cannot. He is nowhere near the greatest player ever. He is not the greatest player ever on his team. He is not the greatest player ever at his position. He was a great player, and an easy HOFer. To argue that he is the greatest player ever is silly. He was a terrible defensive shortstop. There are many players who were great offensively and defensively (Schmidt and Mays come to mind immediately). In the history of the Yankees Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle were clearly better. You can make a case for Dickey and Berra. Jeter is 77th all-time in WAR. You can argue the merits of WAR, but it is a long way from 77th to 1st.
<< <i>He holds the record for holding records on the team that is the overall best team in MLB history! >>
Like the strikeout record. Far more than anyone else. Also the "lack-of-range" record, considered by fans to be the most unbreakable record in baseball.
<< <i>A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. >>
Yeah, if your audience are children or fools.
<< <i>
<< <i>A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. >>
Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
So you're saying this is the right place.
<< <i>A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. >>
I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better.
Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head.
So top 25 is out of the question.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. >>
Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
So you're saying this is the right place. >>
There are enough on this board to make this a good form of entertainment, that is for sure.
<< <i>Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
Regardless, I still say that a decent case can certainly be made. It does not mean that the case will prevail, but it certainly can be made.
Where does all of the hate come from? It is very unpleasant.
<< <i>I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better.
Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head.
So top 25 is out of the question. >>
We should create a list. Perhaps as a new topic.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm a huge Yankee fan. A real homer. I love Jeter and am glad to say that me and my son have seen him play. But he isn't top 25. Top 50 maybe but no way top 25. Like Markj said he isn't even top 5 in his own franchise as Ruth Gehrig mantle DiMaggio berra are better and an argument can be made that Dickey and Ford were better as well. If we aren't counting pitchers that's 5 and maybe 6 better.
Then there's Aaron mays Williams schmidt Clemente Cobb Wagner frank Robbie And that's just off the top of my head.
So top 25 is out of the question. >>
We should create a list. Perhaps as a new topic. >>
Im good with that!
I love lists! Especially when people understand Im right lol
<< <i>I am just curious. What is it about Derek Jeter that upsets so many baseball fans? I agree that he was not as good as many other New York Yankees players. As a matter of fact, there are several other players who have played on other teams that I like more. However, there is no denying that he was very good for the game over the course of the past twenty years. He left very little to criticize. >>
However, there is no denying that he was very good for the game over the course of the past twenty years. He left very little to criticize.
Please see above bolded text.
He did everything the right way. He won with grace. He lost with dignity. He won 5 World Series rings. He had clutch hits. He played with grace and with pride. He had many beautiful girlfriends. He played in NY for 20 years with never a hint of scandal (in a period where Mickey and Whitey and Billy would have been hammered mercilessly for their dalliances) And he was damn good. Having all those tic marks in your "Win" column makes people jealous.
What we love in America is to tear our stars down almost as much as anything. He never gave people that ability.
Well, while he is not the best all round player.....he is probably better than most that YOU think is better.
It's hard to pick greatest player ever because that would include everything......hitting, speed, power and fielding. Jeter ranks good to real good in most of these.....but not the top in any.
If I were hard pressed to pick such a person......the first to come to mind (to me) would be Willie Mays. Some of the players you think are better than Jeter all round.....a lot of us would disagree with.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am just curious. What is it about Derek Jeter that upsets so many baseball fans? . >>
I can't speak to that, as Jeter does not upset me. I have a great deal of respect for the guy.
But if I honestly look at some of the careers of many of the greatest players of all time, Jeter's numbers just aren't there in my opinion.
As a matter of fact, years ago the talk was the two greatest shortstops in the game were Alex Rodriguez and Nomar Garciaparra, with Jeter in 3rd place on many people's list. Jeter just never had those great seasons statistically to jump him ahead of any of the greats.
Great career. Long career. Great character. Great determination. Played on great teams. Just put up very good numbers, not great numbers. >>
Hits, runs, are top 10 career. Those qualify as great to me.
But i think that is one thing that seems to be the knock on Jeter is that none of his stats (outside of hits) really stands out. There is no WOW number. Just really really good season after season. You know he is great (and some of that is the cult of Jeter that has grown over the years) but there isnt one stat that you can point to and say "THERE IT IS THIS PROVES HIS GREATNESS!"
<< <i>Well, while he is not the best all round player.....he is probably better than most that YOU think is better. >>
Could not agree more. In fact, I'll submit that only a moron would suggest that Derek Jeter was better than Charles Barkley.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Hits, runs, are top 10 career. Those qualify as great to me.
But i think that is one thing that seems to be the knock on Jeter is that none of his stats (outside of hits) really stands out. There is no WOW number. Just really really good season after season. You know he is great (and some of that is the cult of Jeter that has grown over the years) but there isnt one stat that you can point to and say "THERE IT IS THIS PROVES HIS GREATNESS!" >>
Kind of like Derek Jeter equals Pete Rose. >>
Outside of the despicable personal failings and complete inability to accept responsibility for his actions it does make for a good parallel.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yeah, if your audience are children or fools. >>
Regardless, I still say that a decent case can certainly be made. It does not mean that the case will prevail, but it certainly can be made.
Where does all of the hate come from? It is very unpleasant.
it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. Add in, and understand, that all fanbases are insufferable, but I think one can understand that two east coast baseball fanbases in particular are downright pull the covers over one's head cringe-worthy in their self-absorption. Case in point, there is actual discussion occurring on this board at present with some folks seeming genuinely serious about tagging Jeter one of the top 25 or 50 players of all-time when in reality, he's barely near even the latter. He's a marginally better Barry Larkin who many deemed a borderline HOF candidate. Jeter held on long enough to compile counting stats and distance himself from Larkin offensively but up through 2011 they were largely equals.
Jeter - 70.4 fWAR, 70.1 rWAR and 64.3 WARP
Larkin - 69.8 fWAR, 68.9 rWAR and 86.2 WARP
So in reality, when you throw this season out because Jeter is in the running for the Yuniesky Betancourt Award For Onfield Futility, he was Barry Larkin+2 years of counting stats. Sure Jeter was a better hitter, but he is also the worst defensive SS in the history of the game by a Yellowstone margin. Only Michael Young (-71.6) and Toby Harrah (-97.0) had worse than a -50 run value for defense, Jeter will finish up at -159. Had Joe Cronin had the good fortune of better health, Jeter would be Joe Cronin. I really think the Yanks' refusal to move Jeter off of SS 7-8 years ago really hurt his standing in this whole place in history discussion. There would still be detractors because he's a Yankee, but I think more people would think of him differently had he moved off of SS like Ripken or Yount or any other former star SS did.
Now if other folks want to knock the whole (fan/media) portrayal of Jeter being this super unselfish team first player I could listen to that as even putting aside offering to move off of SS for a superior defender in A-rod, you don't need to look that far back to see a certain AB he had against the Red Sox in a key late season game (to determine divisional winner vs wild card) where a certain Michigan born SS had a 20-some odd game hitting streak on the line in the 8th inning with runners on and a highly erratic Red Sox reliever on the bump working with a 3-0 count and promptly following that up with a fourth offering low and outside to where The Captain took an awkward off-balance hack that seemed to serve no other purpose than scrubbing the first base line chalk with a Juan Pierre-esque weak roller and the endgame was the contest remained tied until one of the many relievers that Joe Torre single handedly ended their careers -undoubtedly working on his thirteenth straight day of action- coughed up three runs in the 9th to send the chowders to the divisional win. I'd also be ok with anyone who finds #2's career long desire to create a modern version of Joe DiMaggio in himself acceptable criticism as well. Everything down to dating starlets and then complaining about all the attention and lack of privacy. Jeter seems to be a genuinely good guy who happened to have a really good to excellent long career.
1. Babe Ruth 155.1
2. Ty Cobb 150.9
3. Barry Bonds 142.6
4. Willie Mays 136.4
5. Hank Aaron 131.8
6. Ted Williams 126.3
7. Stan Musial 124.6
8. Tris Speaker 123.6
9. Honus Wagner 123.0
10. Rogers Hornsby 121.6
11. Eddie Collins 119.6
12. Mickey Mantle 116.0
13. Alex Rodriguez 113.0
14. Lou Gehrig 112.1
15. Frank Robinson 106.6
16. Rickey Henderson 104.2
17. Joe Morgan 103.7
18. Mel Ott 103.5
19. Nap Lajoie 97.8
20. Derek Jeter 95.3
21. Jimmie Foxx 94.3
22. Eddie Mathews 93.8
23. Cap Anson 90.9
Mike Schmidt 90.9
25. Chipper Jones 87.4
26. George Brett 84.1
27. Ken Griffey 83.8
28. Albert Pujols 82.6
29. Pete Rose 82.2
Robin Yount 82.2
31. Dan Brouthers 81.6
32. Manny Ramirez 81.2
33. Wade Boggs 80.6
34. Rod Carew 80.4
35. Sam Crawford 79.9
Gary Sheffield 79.9
37. Frank Thomas 79.8
38. Roger Connor 78.8
39. Al Kaline 77.9
40. Carl Yastrzemski 77.7
There is only one player above him who has played in the last twenty years and is not associated with steroids; Rickey Henderson.
Derek Jeter played during the most competitive era is baseball history and managed to compile a career as productive as some of the legends of the game. I do not wish to "rank" Jeter, but he certainly deserves to be considered one of the all time greats.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
also he's #46 in offensive fWar fwiw. And perhaps I'm taking things a bit too literally, but it was noted top 25-50 players. No mention of just positional players. Because if you add in pitchers then Jeter is where he should be- #88 with Larkin and Trammell just behind him in the mid 90's. I feel that's where he belongs. Somewhere #75-85 overall.
Here's something would hope will be copied: 'BABE RUTH WAS SIMPLY A FAT SLOB DRUNK MARKETING PIECE EVERY CITY AND PITCHER OF THE TEAM WANTED HIM TO HIT A DINGER OFF OF THEM ORDER TO SELL TICKETS'.
Comparing Babe Ruth the lowlife yankee to Jeter ? NO comparison.
Babe Ruth was simply a fat slob NEW YORK pig.
<< <i>it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. >>
There is nothing "so called" about it. A child could recognize it for what it is. I am the first to criticize the media for their ridiculous coverage of Derek Jeter this baseball season. I have said as much on these message boards. However, the criticism in this thread has nothing to do with the media coverage. As a matter of fact, the word "media" has only appeared once in four pages. I have quoted it above. The criticism is personal, and I simply do not understand why Derek Jeter upsets so many baseball fans as much as he does. If he played on their favorite teams for twenty years, I am convinced that they would feel differently about his legacy.
<< <i>You guys know Babe Ruth was just a marketing fat slob scumbag right ? Compare it to what anyone thinks the reality of Thanksgiving is. Babe Ruth is as a gimmick item as was the candy bar made after him. All teams back in that day knew marketing. All teams wanted The Babe to go large in their own cities.
Here's something would hope will be copied: 'BABE RUTH WAS SIMPLY A FAT SLOB DRUNK MARKETING PIECE EVERY CITY AND PITCHER OF THE TEAM WANTED HIM TO HIT A DINGER OFF OF THEM ORDER TO SELL TICKETS'.
Comparing Babe Ruth the lowlife yankee to Jeter ? NO comparison.
Babe Ruth was simply a fat slob NEW YORK pig.
Wow. Just. Wow.
I learned to never argue with an ignoramus. They will drag you down to their level and beat guy with experience. So ill take my leave after that last post of...well, um, yeah.
BABE RUTH WAS A MARKTING PLOY He was given all his dingers to excite the fans in order to gain fans.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You Jeter bashers (anyone not blindly supporting him) make me laugh!
He holds the (Yankee) record for holding (Yankee) records on the (Yankee) team that is the overall best team in MLB history (according to Yankee Fans)! He played 20 years never getting (caught) in trouble in a city where that is a record in itself. The guy was great (because he's a Yankee) and did it (breathed air, but did little else considered overly exceptional by MLB standards) for 20 years.
Nuff said (I have no facts so will just attempt to end the debate by saying its over). He was great (because he was a Yankee) and will be remembered (by Yankee fanboys and homers, mostly) as great weather ("whether") you bashers (anyone presenting actual stats or facts to dispute claims of greatness) agree or not!
LIVE WITH IT!!!(So there-nana nana boo boo) >>
What can I say; I'm in a great mood and this was just too juicy to pass up. Laugh already...it's a joke.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Standing by it. The dude was a marketing tool who's records mean nothing in this day and age. Get with at least the 90's.
BABE RUTH WAS A MARKTING PLOY He was given all his dingers to excite the fans in order to gain fans. >>
I strongly disagree with the "given all his dingers" part (and flat out defy you to show any proof), but as to the marketing part of it...every significant baseball star both then and now was or is used in marketing, both of the league and of various endorsed products/brands. Using your own avatar pic as an example-Johnny Bench famously hawked Krylon paint amongst other things (and currently sells Blue Emu ointment). Does that mean his record means nothing as well?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>it shouldn't be that difficult to realize that most of the so called "hate" is largely directed at the media's coverage of Jeter rather than Jeter himself. >>
There is nothing "so called" about it. A child could recognize it for what it is. I am the first to criticize the media for their ridiculous coverage of Derek Jeter this baseball season. I have said as much on these message boards. However, the criticism in this thread has nothing to do with the media coverage. As a matter of fact, the word "media" has only appeared once in four pages. I have quoted it above. The criticism is personal, and I simply do not understand why Derek Jeter upsets so many baseball fans as much as he does. If he played on their favorite teams for twenty years, I am convinced that they would feel differently about his legacy. >>
The media coverage is fueling the detractors, here or elsewhere, just as the waaaay over the top Jeter love-in at the All-Star Game...a game that no one, including the players, cared about, did. See the average fan tends to get annoyed when they see a player who wasn't as good as their favorite team's player was, especially when it may be someone in the same position as #2; who played their entire career in one city, like say Tony Gwynn or Chipper Jones, who didn't receive the same adulation because west coast or small market or whatever excuse one would make. Regardless, please highlight where the criticism is "personal" because I haven't seen anything about Jeter in this thread that could or should be considered personal. Perhaps I've glossed over some individual posts, but from the posts I read, pretty much everyone kept their opinions balanced on his on-field performance. I haven't seen anyone talking about his family or girlfriend(s) or his hairline, or his taste in walk-up music, or something else that could be considered personal. I didn't even see anyone criticizing him for announcing that he was taking this year long retirement tour, which would also be a fair criticism considering the attention deflecting, blue collar - Joe Lunchpail aura he tends to emit. So if you're thinking about rolling out some explanation of other folks analyzing his performance/stats and trying to somehow construct a narrative that because others see his performance/stats differently than you do, that it's somehow personal, then no, that's not going to work. I'm completely apathetic towards Jeter, the player and person, and from what I've read in this thread, it's largely the same for others. As I see it, this thread got to 3 pages because a few individuals started tossing around #2's name in a top 25 (or better) all-time player conversation which is completely ridiculous by any statistical measure unless they failed to mention they were filtering it down to top 25 shortstops, or top 25 Yankees only. Had those people merely said, "one of the top players" this thread would have already cashed out.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>All-time Offensive WAR Leaders >>
Don't forget about defense.
<< <i>BABE RUTH WAS A MARKTING PLOY He was given all his dingers to excite the fans in order to gain fans. >>
In the 0.001% chance that you're not trolling...
They "gave" him HRs, even in the World Series? Some players can't even hit HRs in the HR Derby (~55 mph slow-balls for every pitch), BTW.
Jeter falls somewhere in the top 75ish all-time.
Top 25 is absurd. The offensive WAR list is only part of the equation. There is more. Actually, offensive WAR isn't that great. Win Probability is better, as it draws from the actual play by play data:
For Post War players only(as the play by play info only goes back to early 50's), he ranks 93rd at 30.87.
Other middle infielders(and catchers for another demanding position)include:
Here are their rankings in Win Probabiliy Added...the most precise offensive measurement.
Joe Morgan 66
Arod 57
Rose 54. Not always a MI.
Carew 45
Piazza 39
Biggio 31
Larkin 31
Jeter 30.8
Bench 30.1
T. Simmons 30
Whitaker 29
Sandberg 27
Alomar 27
Utley 27
Mauer 23
Hanley 21
Nomar 16
Ripken 15
If somebody is claiming Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, then where would that put Larkin who was a far superior defender than Jeter at the same position, and his equal offensively?? Jeter was an awful defensive shortstop.
Piazza's Win Probabiity Added(which is more accurate than WAR) at 39 from the catcher spot provides more value, as does Bench's 30 from the catchers spot. So if you believe in the position adjustment in the offensive WAR that gave jeter an artificially higher ranking, then a catcher's adjustment is worth even more...and those guys are also his equal offensively, and in Bench's case also one of the best defensive catchers ever, so that puts Bench easily ahead of Jeter.
Is Ripken's 15 WPA close enough to add his defensive advantage to overtake Jeter? If I am to be fair, I would have to live by what I always said and take the defensive measurements with a grain of salt, and give the edge to Jeter since the offensive portion is of such a higher validity.
Based on a traditional positional adjustment used in WAR, looking at an estimate of defensive ability, BUT using the better offensive measurement(WPA), then the following guys on that list are clearly ahead of Jeter:
Morgan
Arod
Piazza
Larkin
Bench
They are all better offensively(or in Morgan's case way too far ahead offensively) and are either better defensively, or play a more demanding postion for the positional adjustment(catcher).
So if one believes Jeter falls at 23rd all-time, unless Morgan, Arod, Piazza, Larkin, and Bench occupy spots 18-21 all-time, then you have something wrong with your ranking, because the 'non' SS and catchers that are light years better hitters to overcome the positional value like Mantle, Schmidt, Pujols, Cabrerra, Aaron, Mays, Williams, F. Robinson, Musial, Henderson, Chipper, Gwynn, McCovey, Kaline, Clemente, Matthews, Griffey....puts you at your top 25 of POST WAR players.
I didn't even put the likely steroid guys on there, because Bonds is light years better than Jeter.
Then you still have Ruth, Gehrig, Wagner, Cobb, Hornsby, Foxx, etc...that are all better.
Then you have the pitchers(who also happen to be baseball players) Pedro, Maddux, Unit, etc...that are all better.
That makes a top 25 an absurdity, and any argument that somebody contrives for Jeter to overcome those players above, can then also be used to other players ranked below Jeter to make them leap Jeter from the bottom, still resulting in a no chance for a top 25.
Also, keep in mind that nearly all of Jeter's lofty rankings in the advanced metrics comes from the positional value increase given to a SS(like the offensive WAR does), which isn't as valid as the offensive measurements itself without the adjustment...so other sluggers who dwarf him offensively, but fall behind due to the position adjustment, may actually be better...especially when you consider the ease it is to actually replace a SS defensively.
As it stands, a case can be made for Jeter being at the end of the top 50...but then a case can also be made for him being at the end of the top 150. Top 25? No reasonable case can be made.
linky
#4 Honus Wagner
#30 Cal Ripken
#56 Alan Trammell
#75 Derek Jeter
<< <i>I wonder if Arod will replace Jeter at SS next year if the Yankees can't sign any of the free agent shortstops. >>
I am wondering the same thing 1970s.
<< <i>Regardless, please highlight where the criticism is "personal" because I haven't seen anything about Jeter in this thread that could or should be considered personal. >>
Not personal about Derek Jeter's personal life, but personal in regard to so many baseball fans personally not liking him for their own personal reasons. You will have no trouble identifying those replies. You can begin with some of your own.
<< <i>So if you're thinking about rolling out some explanation of other folks analyzing his performance/stats and trying to somehow construct a narrative that because others see his performance/stats differently than you do, that it's somehow personal, then no, that's not going to work. >>
I am not thinking about that at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of the criticism. I simply do not understand the hatred, regardless of whether or not it is shielded by statistics.
<< <i>
I am not thinking about that at all. As a matter of fact, I agree with most of the criticism. I simply do not understand the hatred, regardless of whether or not it is shielded by statistics. >>
The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player.
So far, the only 'criticism' here is that Jeter is 'only' ranked as a top 75 all-time player, because that is the worst 'bashing' in this thread I have seen.
That, and the fact that he does not walk on water during the post season clutch time when it is said he 'rises to the occasion'. That image Yankee fans have painted is simply not true...as pointed out above when he wilted in the ALCS and WS when the situation called for someone to rise to the occasion.
That isn't a criticism of Jeter, but of the fans who are making him something he is not.
He is what he is, a top six all-time SS, and a top 75ish all-time player.
When people start putting him top 25 all-time it is getting silly.
PS. That top 75ish is based purely on career value. If peak value is viewed more prominently, then he drops a little more.
<< <i>The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player. >>
I never said I think that Derek Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, and I certainly am not emotional over this topic. I am not even a big fan of Derek Jeter, although I am a very big fan of the New York Yankees. I am actually a big fan of Don Mattingly. I also liked Robinson Cano better than Derek Jeter, but that is irrelevant. I simply said that a decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. I can't help it if some people choose to emotionally overreact to such an innocent statement.
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that you are taking objective analysis as criticism or hatred, because it doesn't jive with your emotional thought of him being a top 25 all-time player. >>
I never said I think that Derek Jeter is a top 25 all-time player, and I certainly am not emotional over this topic. I am not even a big fan of Derek Jeter, although I am a very big fan of the New York Yankees. I am actually a big fan of Don Mattingly. I also liked Robinson Cano better than Derek Jeter, but that is irrelevant. I simply said that a decent case can certainly be made to place Derek Jeter in a list of the top 25 baseball players of all time. I can't help it if some people choose to emotionally overreact to such an innocent statement. >>
Anyone can construct a 'case' to put any player in the top 25. It doesn't mean it is a decent one. Only a poor case can be made to put him top 25 all-time....not a decent one.
If you aren't emotional about it, then why are you so paranoid in claiming that people are bashing Jeter on here? I don't see anyone bashing him on here. Bashing some of the delusional fans Maybe.
Well done Boston!
<< <i>What a great ceremony by the Red Sox. Classy, respectful, and light.
Well done Boston! >>