PayPal changes Dispute Filing Window from 45 to 180 days
TNP777
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Policy takes effect November 18, 2014
Effective Date: November 18, 2014
We encourage you to carefully review this Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that are being made to the PayPal User Agreement. These updates will be posted at least 30 days prior to their effective date. These changes will not apply retroactively and will become effective November 18, 2014. If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms.
Dispute Filing Window
We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.
This doesn't affect me much since I'm a once-in-a-blue-moon seller, but I can't see how this is good for those of you who sell all the time. Unless I'm missing something, this is another huge plus for the vindictive/thieves/scammers.
Effective Date: November 18, 2014
We encourage you to carefully review this Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that are being made to the PayPal User Agreement. These updates will be posted at least 30 days prior to their effective date. These changes will not apply retroactively and will become effective November 18, 2014. If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms.
Dispute Filing Window
We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.
This doesn't affect me much since I'm a once-in-a-blue-moon seller, but I can't see how this is good for those of you who sell all the time. Unless I'm missing something, this is another huge plus for the vindictive/thieves/scammers.
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Definitely not good news for me as a seller. I pretty much have to have all paypal funds 'on hold' during the 45 day window just in case there's an issue. 45 days is tough to do, 6 months isn't going to work for me.
The bulk of what I sell is on Etsy, and they have an option for me to turn off paypal as a payment option for customers, with this new change I'll probably be doing just that.
Lets say I buy a used lawnmower in June, use it until October, send it back because my grass
aint growing anymore. Never actually "buy" a mower again
Man, sometimes I wish I was a crook
Still looking for verification of the off-eBay thing.
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<< <i>I think its time to start considering other payment options for eBay. What are some of the other lesser known options? >>
Chase QuickPay is an option. No fees for anyone.
The only problem is that QuickPay does not offer any buyer protection.
<< <i>I have also never had a charge back from anyone here off of eBay, guess I am lucky for that. In my opinion, as long as you do a great job with the item description, offer a 14 day return window and be decent to the buyer you will seem to never have a problem. My key here is that I do not ship to anyone outside the US. I once sold an item to someone over in Asia and it was a problem from day 1. As long as you stick to USA only you will have 50% less problems from the get go! >>
Canada.
<< <i>
<< <i>You can also offer a 5% discount in your auction description for payment by check or money order, that's what I do and I get about 45% of my payments by mail, the "old" way of doing business.... >>
Is this against eBay rules? I would hate for all of my listings to be removed. >>
No, it is against the rules to charge the 3% Paypal fees. No problem offering discounts for other forms of payment.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>this is absolutely great news! think about when you buy a pack or a raw card. send it off to psa only to comeback 90 - 120 later as non-authentic or altered. gives me an outlet to prove w/ paperwork that "item is not as described". I think this is great for us buyers!!! >>
Hopefully this is a sarcastic post
<< <i>Hopefully this is a sarcastic post >>
Probably, but this option was already on the table with CC chargebacks. So, not much difference.
if you are selling fake cards/resealed packs, then I can see your concern.
I will state it again, for the record, "this is great for us buyers"!!! (3 exclamation marks, to eliminate any further confusion)
Example - you buy a baseball prospect at the beginning of the season for....$50. They have a crappy season, or get injured, or sent to prison...and now their cards are worth $5. NO WORRIES HERE! I have 180 to return it for a COMPLETE refund and Im only out shipping charges.
But, if my gamble pays off and his card increases in value...I'll be happy with my purchase and wont be returning it.
Another example - someone buys a RAW card that they think is a PSA 10. They send it into PSA...and having a 180 day window now...send it bulk. Whenever it comes back...it's a PSA 7 instead of that wonderful 10 they were hoping for. They are mad that they paid the raw card price and didn't get a PSA 10. So....they crack it out of the PSA case and return it for a full refund.
Those are just 2 examples that could hurt our hobby. I personally think the 45 day window is fine. This essentially makes it a 6 month warranty for ANYTHING you buy off of ebay. Completely ridiculous, lol.
But yes, this is a positive thing for buying (in the sense that it doesn't hurt anything). I see it as a negative thing for sellers (unless you are selling things that are exempt from this ruling)
sellers scenarios:
the lawnmower scenario = pics equal clearly used, no brainer on the ebay decision there.
crappy season scenario = doesn't work there either. the item has to be "not as described". ebay will look that they didn't file anything until 179 days.
buyers scenarios:
resealed pack / altered card scenario = I have complete proof from a tpg that this pack has been previously opened and or the card has been altered.
and besides, I put everything on my amex anyways and will win everytime regardless of paypal/ebay decisions. of course, I only file honest claims as well
Say for instance a guy buys a card with the expectation that it is going to grade out at a 9 or 10. He sends it off and by the time it comes back as a 7 or 8, the 45 day window has expired. Since it didn't grade to the buyer's expectation (which were probably higher than was warranted), now he can force the seller to eat said card.
Or how about prospectors of modern cards? Kris Bryant auto'd 'Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious refractor purchased for $250 (L@@K!!!!! MOJO!!!!). Kris Bryant makes the Show five months after purchase and is an immense flop. Card now "worth" $30. No problem. SNAD filed, $250 returned. Seller screwed.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Great for the guys who flip and return what they cant flip!
<< <i>This will increase the appeal of PWCC and PRobstein, as well as auction houses for higher-priced material. I've also done well selling items here on CU, and made many friends along the way. >>
I would be extremely nervous if I were them. After a chargeback, they would then have to chase down the person whose item was returned.
"PayPal’s Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country. If you as a seller, sell an item to a buyer from another country, you will be subject to the Buyer and Seller Protection policies applicable to your buyer’s country and required to reimburse PayPal for any payment or refund to your buyer made pursuant to that other country’s policy. We are revising section 11.1 to reflect this."
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>don't send me a resealed pack, an altered or recolored 71 topps baseball without disclosing it in the description and we wont have a problem. >>
45 days is more than enough time to end the items you've outlined above back to the seller.
<< <i>sellers scenarios:
the lawnmower scenario = pics equal clearly used, no brainer on the ebay decision there.
crappy season scenario = doesn't work there either. the item has to be "not as described". ebay will look that they didn't file anything until 179 days. >>
What pics are you talking about? There are no pics in this post or 90 days after the eBay listing ended.
If someone is the type to return an item due to the player having a poor season you better believe they will damage a card in order for it to be "not as described"
<< <i>buyers scenarios:
resealed pack / altered card scenario = I have complete proof from a tpg that this pack has been previously opened and or the card has been altered.
and besides, I put everything on my amex anyways and will win everytime regardless of paypal/ebay decisions. of course, I only file honest claims as well >>
Proof or an opinion? TGCompanies offer their opinions on items.
I do understand your thinking on this begsu1013...but I'm saying that from a seller's point of view this is a nightmare. Sellers will have to protect themselves even more than before now. Disclaimers all over the listing. Money will be tied up for 6 months instead of 45 days (in my business I hold all money until I know that it's truly clear). I'm not worried about chargebacks as scammers rarely, very rarely go that route.
I've been on both sides of the chargeback issue on ebay. As a seller, the very few chargebacks I've had were for $10 or less cards. I don't fight those anymore because it is not worth it. The last few have used the "my son used my credit card without permission" excuse.
As a buyer I filed a chargeback for a $3000 card. The seller sent me the non-auto version of the same card. My chargeback confused the Paypal rep and they decided against me. The seller claimed that he did indeed send me card #XX, which he did but it was the non auto version. I went to AMEX to fight my case and I had to get a notarized statement from a local dealer backing up my claim. The process is paperwork heavy and has tight deadlines. It not easy to do, but I did win.
I researched the seller and he actually was President of a consulting company that did work for WalMart. He is a big Arkansas Razorbacks fan based on his Facebook page. I cheer against the Razorbacks every Saturday since.
It's a new, inventive way to play the "no money, no card" game. You'll be paying people to take your stuff.
SO happy I quit selling on eBay years ago.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
The credit card company takes the card holders side every time and PayPal is at their mercy.
Now this scumbag can wait 6 months and hit his next mark with a CC charge back.
Fortunately it's only a $30 card and I'm fighting it on principle.
I've never had a problem from international buyers.
<< <i>
<< <i>don't send me a resealed pack, an altered or recolored 71 topps baseball without disclosing it in the description and we wont have a problem. >>
45 days is more than enough time to end the items you've outlined above back to the seller.
<< <i>sellers scenarios:
the lawnmower scenario = pics equal clearly used, no brainer on the ebay decision there.
crappy season scenario = doesn't work there either. the item has to be "not as described". ebay will look that they didn't file anything until 179 days. >>
What pics are you talking about? There are no pics in this post or 90 days after the eBay listing ended.
If someone is the type to return an item due to the player having a poor season you better believe they will damage a card in order for it to be "not as described"
<< <i>buyers scenarios:
resealed pack / altered card scenario = I have complete proof from a tpg that this pack has been previously opened and or the card has been altered.
and besides, I put everything on my amex anyways and will win everytime regardless of paypal/ebay decisions. of course, I only file honest claims as well >>
Proof or an opinion? TGCompanies offer their opinions on items.
I do understand your thinking on this begsu1013...but I'm saying that from a seller's point of view this is a nightmare. Sellers will have to protect themselves even more than before now. Disclaimers all over the listing. Money will be tied up for 6 months instead of 45 days (in my business I hold all money until I know that it's truly clear). I'm not worried about chargebacks as scammers rarely, very rarely go that route. >>
mullins, have you seen the time frame on packs lately? running 3+ months....well past 45 days. even the standard psa 30 biz day goes past the paypal 45 days period when you factor in shipping 3 ways (you to me, me to psa, psa back to me) and a few days to actually get logged into the system. throw in a few holidays or the national in there and my 45 days is burned up to let the seller know they sold me a bogus pack/card....
now i would be just fine at 60/90 days. 180 though? ...i even have a problem with that!!!
now that issue of selling outta the country would really piss me off...as a seller and a outta country buyer.
<< <i>this is absolutely great news! think about when you buy a pack or a raw card. send it off to psa only to comeback 90 - 120 later as non-authentic or altered. gives me an outlet to prove w/ paperwork that "item is not as described". I think this is great for us buyers!!! >>
But why do you have to use PSA? There are numerous others than can give second opinion.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
I suppose a crook who owned a card that came back ungraded from PSA as altered/trimmed/recolored/miscut could buy another raw one from someone else that had an unaltered good one, pull the ol' switcheroo, and use the non-grading info in a false claim against the seller of the good card.
Unfortunately there are a million ways for scammers and crooks to work the system and figure out how to cheat you, before and after any policy changes by paypal. The honest people are going to continue to be honest. Fortunately there are a lot more of them than there are of the scammers.
If someone buys a card that's advertised as NM-MT and it comes back NM or even EX-MT why should the seller be held responsible? The buyer is the one who had the card in hand and chose to send it to a TGC, therefore the buyer assumes the risk....which is what buying raw cards is risk.
I remember someone who used to buy low grade cards, crack them out, alter them and offer them raw. With a seller like that I can see where this 180 days can be helpful. I believe it's circumstances like this that you're talking about, right begsu1013?
miwlvrn: ofcourse, naturally i didn't think that way, but pretty much each card has it's printing characteristic. a bubble here, ink splot there, centered a typical way. but in the end, haters gonna hate and scammers gonna scam. that goes for buyers and sellers. but would we agree that there are more people out there selling scams then buyers buying to scam the seller?
<< <i>TGCompanies offer their [i[opinion on the authenticity and grade of a card. Just because a TGC (PSA, SGS, Beckett, etc) say a card is different than what the seller described it as is not an honest and ethical reason to open a paypal claim against the seller and hold them responsible.
If someone buys a card that's advertised as NM-MT and it comes back NM or even EX-MT why should the seller be held responsible? The buyer is the one who had the card in hand and chose to send it to a TGC, therefore the buyer assumes the risk....which is what buying raw cards is risk.
I remember someone who used to buy low grade cards, crack them out, alter them and offer them raw. With a seller like that I can see where this 180 days can be helpful. I believe it's circumstances like this that you're talking about, right begsu1013? >>
exactly. i had an instance where someone sold me a very, very nice 1971 raw ryan for $150. well come to find out, the card was purchased a month earlier by the seller, touched up with a marker and attempted to be sold to me. this was me pre-looping everything. so i sent it off to be graded and naturally came back n-5. normally i wouldn't mind, but after a lil more investigation it was clear from the sellers purchase pics vs selling pics that he bought it, touched it up and resold it. took about 50 days to get back to me from psa/shipping and couldn't dispute...but amex had my back.
in cases solely resembling this, where there is intentional fraud...i am all about 60/90 days. as stated, 180 is redonk.
sad thing is, the touch up was just a smidge. card mighta had a shot at an 8, 8.5.
but in closing, i guess there's a reason all these raws aren't in holders to begin with! ; ) plus i think buying a rawy from someone that's selling graded cards is a big red flag as well.
<< <i>While this is good for honest buyers, this opens the door much wider for unscrupulous ones - those are the buyers that everyone is afraid of.
Say for instance a guy buys a card with the expectation that it is going to grade out at a 9 or 10. He sends it off and by the time it comes back as a 7 or 8, the 45 day window has expired. Since it didn't grade to the buyer's expectation (which were probably higher than was warranted), now he can force the seller to eat said card.
Or how about prospectors of modern cards? Kris Bryant auto'd 'Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious refractor purchased for $250 (L@@K!!!!! MOJO!!!!). Kris Bryant makes the Show five months after purchase and is an immense flop. Card now "worth" $30. No problem. SNAD filed, $250 returned. Seller screwed. >>
As I've thought about this some more, I just can't imagine how this policy change will be good for cards or any other collectibles markets that use eBay or Paypal.
I know we're all primarily concerned about cards, but really anything that's condition sensitive or might be collected because of value is impacted. I think about like gold and silver - let's say you buy a 1 ounce ungraded gold coin, 4-5 months later prices are down. Why not at least try to return it? You could say something as simple as "it has a scratch" and it's possible Paypal could conclude it's "not as described" and make you refund as long as it gets returned to you. Unless it's something that's graded or unopened in the original packaging, you're exposed as a seller.
So how would you prove that out as a seller that this wasn't a bogus dispute? You can only see your feedback on eBay going back 3 months right? You can only view sellers completed auctions for 15 days. Do you have to keep a copy of every auction you do offline to make sure you have support just in case? If you do a transaction through a forum like this, I guess you have to actually send the pictures via email, or again keep a copy of all that offline until the 180 days are up? Why would you ever leave positive feedback for a buyer until after the dispute window is closed?
There are so many other scenarios/questions, but I think most people get the point.
I've got to believe that this policy, unless it get's changed, will absolutely lead to reduced listings in certain categories (and maybe that's what they're TRYING to do?), particularly things like collectibles, coins, anything like that which could change significantly in value over a 6 month period. And, because this is a Paypal policy transacting on forums like this will also be affected, not just eBay. You're no safer here as a seller than you are on eBay.
I agree with the idea of going BACK to the money order world as a seller, but I don't think I would ever SEND a money order as payment again. And I wouldn't just assume that your big consignment sellers will just let you off the hook - they're going to CHARGE YOU MORE to provide the service, so you're going to pay for that "insurance" one way or another.
Again, barring a change or much better specification in terms of what you can actually "dispute", I think this could really impact the "liquidity" of collectibles online and will ultimately be very bad for all of us. It can only result in fewer choices (people like me and others who don't sell that much just dropping out) and higher prices (you've got to get paid more for the return risk, or the consigners make you pay more to protect themselves).
Only other option would be an alternative payment source, but eBay would certainly never let that go mainstream and I just can't see the check/money order world coming back at this point - it's the wrong direction. This is potentially very bad for everyone, not just sellers.