Some old members of the CU just fade away but I have something on my mind

saintguru

Hear ye,

I'm of the belief that our coinage is among the most boring, least artistic and redundant since the last great designs initiated in the “19-teens”. Since then we have accepted mediocrity and retooling over displaying statements and grandeur that American coinage boldly displayed for a century and a half. We have complacently settled on the idea that Presidents (politicians) were good enough for what we want standing for as American icons.

I submit that the greatest symbols of this country are the incredible natural wildlife that is indigenous and irrefutably a display of the American spirit. First and foremost is the bald eagle which has always ended up on the reverse of coins as if it was getting an "honorable mention". This magnificent species stands for strength, independence and survival. It's a hell of a lot more potent than Jefferson or JFK (I won't even touch Susan B. Anthony). Put it on every coin! I would also submit the grizzly bear, the mountain lion and the grey wolf as similar and powerful American representatives. These animals are reflections of this country, independence, free spirit and our proud ancestry, not politicians. If there's one thing I'm certain of is that the presidents on coins and currency have far more skeletons and dirt under their fingernails than any great species of this country. At the very least, flip the coins and put the presidents on the reverse and the animals on the obverse!

My final point is to consider some of the politicians we have on our coins and currency and ask oneself where is Teddy Roosevelt? He is considered by many historians, myself being a lesser one, to be in the "top three" of our history. He is the bald eagle of presidents. Can you justify having Grant, McKinley, Cleveland, Wilson and Salmon Chase on our money? Really? REALLY? Where is Teddy? It wreaks of 150 years of politics and apathy gettjng in the way of coin reform. Pride in the United States is something that is very lacking these days and could use a good kick in the ass. And the fact is that nobody's going to care and nobody's going to listen and it's an old song that's been heard a million times; but I believe we are decades overdue and so I'll scream it from Mount Hall like a tipsy-Austrian yodeler.

Patriotic not gingo-istic…

neither saint nor guru. JB

Goldbully

Been a while Sainty....love it when you speak out on a topic.

Stick around.....the forum is a better place when you contribute your fertile mind.

saintguru

Thanks...that beautiful little girl in my sugline just started as a freshman at Mizzou! That pic was almost new when I added it!

Namaste

ms70

You're right about Teddy Roosevelt. I never thought about that and it makes no sense he was never honored on circulating coinage IF we insist on doing presidents. However I'd
make a "presidential" exception for him since the American history surrounding him personally is equal only to that of our forefathers. It takes a real man to get shot in the chest
and then insist upon delivering a 90 minute speech. Sadly, if he died then maybe he would have had his place on a coin.

We all have our vision of what U.S. coinage should be, but one thing I'm certain most would agree upon is that what we have pretty much sucks. The designs are changed like
underwear. They don't inspire. The only modern I like is the Sacagawea Dollar, but again, I don't like frequently changing designs on the reverse. The U.S. Mint is too busy
designing non-circulating glitzy stuff to hype and sell. They should stick to their purpose which is to make coins for commerce. JMHO.

291fifth

Bring back Liberty! No more presidents.

bidask

<< <i>Been a while Sainty....love it when you speak out on a topic.

Stick around.....the forum is a better place when you contribute your fertile mind. >>

My daughter is a senior at Mizzou. Good all around university!

jmb

<< <i>Bring back Liberty! No more presidents. >>

MrHalfDime

"Bring back Liberty! No more presidents."

YES!

lcoopie

A visit to Sagamore Hill might be very enjoyable.

BryceM

I would add pronghorn antelope, elk, mountain lion, bobcats, & whitetail & mule deer. Using these, however, puts us second fiddle to Canada where they figured this out a while ago.

...... & amen that what we have is stale and uninspired.

MsMorrisine

I will disagree on the animals, as ideals are greater

The CCAC wants to show the world what their artists can do with a silver arts medal series.

Perhaps if they miraculously produce something artistic, design changes can be pursued.

Goldbully

that beautiful little girl in my Surfline just started as a freshman at Mizzou! That pic was almost new when I added it!
Surely a legendary(etched in my Coin Forum Mind) image of your 'little girl.'
Are you dabbling in any US coinage these days, Jay?

ps. You are a true forum icon.....use your powers wisely.

MrEureka

We have complacently settled on the idea that Presidents (politicians) were good enough for what we want standing for as American icons.

I can't defend the aesthetic quality of our current coinage, but I think that it makes sense to honor the "right" people - not just presidents - on our coinage. Unfortunately, there's not much agreement in the USA as to who those "right" people are. And I won't bother stating my opinions on that issue, because this is not a political forum. (But if I were going to pick a few - I said "if" - only GW and TJ would keep their faces in our pockets.)

braddick

PS: Our TONKS are thriving and doing so well.

coindeuce

Iron Eyes want to see Geronimo on white man coin. Him have stronger soul than all white man Big Chief.

saintguru

It's about CHANGE Andy, not so much about who. We are in the longest stretch in history of not redesigning our basic coinage. Add that to the fact that they are just terrible and this is why I submit my opinion. I collected Jeff's, Rosies and Washingtons when from the time I was five and a few here know how long ago that was. . Even then I thought they were so drab compared to the wonderful stuff I saw in the Red Book. I loved the early 19th C pieces, Buffalo Nickels and Standing Lib quarters but you couldn't fine one with a visible date. The Walker Halves were wonderfully classic. And the incused $2.50 and $5.00 gold still stand among my favorite designs ever. We have dismissed aesthetics and not just in coins. As early as the first coins two millennia ago artistic design was of great importance. Teddy Roosevelt tried to revive exciting coinage after the repetitiveness of Barber and Morgan by recruiting the greatest Amerucan sculptor of the era, Augustus St. Gaudens. Great effort was made for 130 years and then ceased. And for the last 70-80 we just don't care. And kids play Grand Theft Auto and never read a book in hand. We are losing our sense of aesthetics for what? Zombies, vampires, aliens and Bots.

The big story is that art is dying. And with that some very scary de-evolution will follow.

saintguru

The TONKS!

How I loved them. I'm playing with a couple of Australian Shepherds the last number of years but I love TONKS.

Kaline6

I agree with the OP. I would very much like to see American animals on our coinage. IMHO they can represent ideals in their way just as a human Liberty can.

The separation from nature and rural values has done much that is negative to our country.

braddick

^
No one can tell me complete strangers on the internet can't effect other peoples lives to a degree that is at times, unimaginable.

Call it the butterfly effect.

coindeuce

The curse of it all is being carried by our young adults who can't read or write cursive, expect to be given money for whatever on demand, and whose only appreciation of art is whatever is being sent to their iPad by their peers.
The fundamental transformation of Amerika has already run its course.

Kudbegud

<< <i>

<< <i>Bring back Liberty! No more presidents. >>



>>



Me too

saintguru

Raise the flag, blow the trumpets and I'll lead the fight to Capitol Hill! .

MacCrimmon

<< <i>Thanks...that beautiful little girl in my sugline just started as a freshman at Mizzou! That pic was almost new when I added it!

Namaste >>




Well, at least that bet I lost is now being put to good use. ..... freshman .... Mizzou ??? OMG, time flies, eh?

MrEureka

The big story is that art is dying.

On our coins? Agreed. In the world beyond? Hardly.

As for our coins, I think the most important thing is to express the values of our nation. Granted, that's a huge challenge for a nation divided, ideologically, more than ever before.

While important, aesthetics are a distant second in importance.

MGLICKER

<< <i>I submit that the greatest symbols of this country are the incredible natural wildlife that is indigenous and irrefutably a display of the American spirit. >>



Lobby if you like Jay, but the Ortolan will never grace a circulating US gold coin!!

saintguru

Ah Mr. Eureka. In the world of Zen aesthetics are an integral component of Tao.

It's second to no natural state and better than none. Politics is the jibber-jabber of boredom.

M-Licker. You make me laugh! Perhaps the French will secretly mint an ortolan coin with a veiled Mitterand on the reverse.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>I agree with the OP. I would very much like to see American animals on our coinage. IMHO they can represent ideals in their way just as a human Liberty can.

The separation from nature and rural values has done much that is negative to our country. >>



True. Oak, Olive, Dove, Eagle...


On the other hand... Where have I seen these used lately?

DMWJR

Jay,

What are you collecting these days, or are you just waxing eloquent? I did love the Saints that you collected which are a beautiful series to collect. Sorry, you are burned out on the look of American coinage, but just being American coinage is something in and of itself. Modern coinage is never appreciated truly until it becomes classic. What did people say in 1817 when Joseph Mickley started searching for a cent of his birth year 1799? Less than a 20 year old coin, I'm sure people thought it was a thing of folly. Comparing that coin to the art, paper money, and European coinage of that day, I'm sure they thought it was plain and meaningless.

Although I revere Lincoln and collect the series passionately, I don't look at coinage from only that viewpoint. If you want a Teddy Roosevelt coin, maybe you should pick up a 2013 Coin and Chronicle set.

CaptHenway

You are preaching to the choir, but nothing will happen without political amity in Washington, D.C., and I can't see that happening in my lifetime.

jmski52

saintguru

Tom, you're very correct. My purpose is really one of opinion and something I've thought about for years and years. A point well taken is worth taking the time to make it. I can't move mountains and mountains won't move for me but a good voice can be heard.

Now where's my proof set of Eagle, Grizzly, Wolf, Mountain lion and Moose?? Bullwinkle J. Moose!

nwcoast

I'm very much in agreement with the OP on this point!!!
My wife and I have frequently discussed this very point many times over the years as well...
Look at some of the ancient Greek coins for art, beauty, and at times, stunning display of wildlife.
This is one reason why I love the Buffalo series so very much.. The majestic display of the Bison and the Native American.
Our neighbors to the north have done a very nice job of including their wildlife in some of their coin design... Yes indeed!

SmEagle1795

Aesthetics (or a lack thereof) in US coinage are a large part of why I've gravitated toward ancient coins. The Greeks and Romans both knew what they were doing when it came to minting aesthetic coinage with historically significant themes. I am continually baffled that the US can't reproduce the beauty of ancient coins with modern technology.

Some of the most beautiful designs were minted more than 2,000 years ago (330 BC for this coin, celebrating the victory of Agathokles by showing Nike constructing a trophy):

Agathokles Tetradrachm


Famous historical figures were attractively engraved posthumously:

Alexander the Great


The Romans engraved attractive portraits of their contemporary rulers:

Antoninus Pius


As for animal designs which the US could use, I love this "double eagle" design (on an extremely small coin):

The Eagles of Akragas


And this composition of war and peace:

Sikyon Stater


Eagles appear extremely frequently on ancient coins as the eagle was the animal of Zeus, the king of the gods. They're especially popular in association with the ancient olympics. This coin was minted in 408 BC for the 93rd Olympics:



I'll stop spamming now, but I'm quite passionate about the need to improve the aesthetics of modern coinage as, from antiquity to today, coins spread propaganda and therefore their designs are important. I've made a website for my collection which has more detailed writeups, for those who are interested: Colosseo Collection

nwcoast

Yea!!!!!!!!SmEagle!!!!
Gorgeous!!! Thanks!!!

CoinJunkie

While I may agree with your thesis in principle, the reality is that coins have less and less
relevance as time marches on. This, along with the government's desire to produce them
as economically as possible (i.e., in shallow relief), makes truly artistic coinage a long shot
in the extreme.

brg5658

OT: My condolences regarding the Mizzou thing.

SoCalBigMark

MsMorrisine

<< <i>While I may agree with your thesis in principle, the reality is that coins have less and less
relevance as time marches on. This, along with the government's desire to produce them
as economically as possible (i.e., in shallow relief), makes truly artistic coinage a long shot
in the extreme. >>



Look for another UHR in 2015 with an accompanying silver medal.

The CCAC want to show what artistic things the mint's stable can do. The UHR design will be new & not a rehash.

We shall see what is produced and if it is really high art. Of course required inscriptions will be one hold up on the UHR, but not the medals.

Baley

I'm sort of glad, as a collector, that modern coins are so lame, and common, as I'm not tempted to collect them, instead using my numismatic time and energy for the nice rare old coins.

MsMorrisine

Great stuff SmEagle

I'll use the first, the victory at agathokles, to illustrate a point.

Some hindrances to the "art" has been relief, required elements, and subject matter. (So it's been said)

Given the same subject(the subject matter constraint) I don't see even a special issue coin design(a UHR or just HR) coming from our mint's current stable.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>

<< <i>While I may agree with your thesis in principle, the reality is that coins have less and less
relevance as time marches on. This, along with the government's desire to produce them
as economically as possible (i.e., in shallow relief), makes truly artistic coinage a long shot
in the extreme. >>



Look for another UHR in 2015 with an accompanying silver medal.

The CCAC want to show what artistic things the mint's stable can do. The UHR design will be new & not a rehash.

We shall see what is produced and if it is really high art. Of course required inscriptions will be one hold up on the UHR, but not the medals. >>


OK, but I presumed the discussion was about circulating coinage.

CoinJunkie

[duplicate post]

Boosibri

While I know that it is common to say that America coinage should return to featuring a portrait of Liberty, I continue to believe that this is the best means to convey the ideals that America stands for on our coinage. I would agree that the American Eagle, the Buffalo, and the stoic Native American portrait are also symbolic of America also appropriately reflect America.

northcoin

<< <i>Tom, you're very correct. My purpose is really one of opinion and something I've thought about for years and years. A point well taken is worth taking the time to make it. I can't move mountains and mountains won't move for me but a good voice can be heard.

Now where's my proof set of Eagle, Grizzly, Wolf, Mountain lion and Moose?? Bullwinkle J. Moose! >>



Speaking of mountains, this country of ours has some spectacular ones that could be impressive on coinage. Mt Ranier, Mt. Hood, Mt. McKinley a/k/a Denali are just three that come to mind. Of course this time I would hope the mint insist on its artist actually seeing the mountain so we don't end up with the Pike's Peak fiasco of yesteryear.

As for your desired Grizzly there is the Alaska State Quarter with that design. Here is a prototype for your suggested moose:

Twobitcollector

<< <i>Tom, you're very correct. My purpose is really one of opinion and something I've thought about for years and years. A point well taken is worth taking the time to make it. I can't move mountains and mountains won't move for me but a good voice can be heard.

Now where's my proof set of Eagle, Grizzly, Wolf, Mountain lion and Moose?? Bullwinkle J. Moose! >>





and let's not forget Rocky

Nap

<< <i>And for the last 70-80 we just don't care. And kids play Grand Theft Auto and never read a book in hand. We are losing our sense of aesthetics for what? Zombies, vampires, aliens and Bots. >>





<< <i>The curse of it all is being carried by our young adults who can't read or write cursive, expect to be given money for whatever on demand, and whose only appreciation of art is whatever is being sent to their iPad by their peers. >>



Don't blame the kids. They were born into the only world they will ever know.

Blame the older generation for plundering the world.

ms70

<< <i>

<< <i>And for the last 70-80 we just don't care. And kids play Grand Theft Auto and never read a book in hand. We are losing our sense of aesthetics for what? Zombies, vampires, aliens and Bots. >>





<< <i>The curse of it all is being carried by our young adults who can't read or write cursive, expect to be given money for whatever on demand, and whose only appreciation of art is whatever is being sent to their iPad by their peers. >>



Don't blame the kids. They were born into the only world they will ever know.

Blame the older generation for plundering the world. >>



X2

drwstr123

"When it is absolutely a question of the safety of one's country, there must be no consideration of just or unjust, of merciful or cruel, of praiseworthy or disgraceful; instead, setting aside every scruple, one must follow to the utmost any plan that will save her life and keep her liberty." Machiavelli

Icollecteverything

<< <i>

<< <i>And for the last 70-80 we just don't care. And kids play Grand Theft Auto and never read a book in hand. We are losing our sense of aesthetics for what? Zombies, vampires, aliens and Bots. >>





<< <i>The curse of it all is being carried by our young adults who can't read or write cursive, expect to be given money for whatever on demand, and whose only appreciation of art is whatever is being sent to their iPad by their peers. >>



Don't blame the kids. They were born into the only world they will ever know.

Blame the older generation for plundering the world. >>



Just think how close we got to killing off the Bald Eagle! And the Bison and some of the others too. They took Liberty off the coins and now they are killing that too.

291fifth

<< <i>We have complacently settled on the idea that Presidents (politicians) were good enough for what we want standing for as American icons.

I can't defend the aesthetic quality of our current coinage, but I think that it makes sense to honor the "right" people - not just presidents - on our coinage. Unfortunately, there's not much agreement in the USA as to who those "right" people are. And I won't bother stating my opinions on that issue, because this is not a political forum. (But if I were going to pick a few - I said "if" - only GW and TJ would keep their faces in our pockets.) >>



GW and TJ were two of the largest slave owners of their era. GW finally provided for the freeing of his slaves in his will, though only after the death of Martha. (They ended up being freed before her death, probably because Martha was afraid they were going to help speed up things by causing her early demise.) TJ never freed his slaves. Do we really want to continue to honor slave owners?

PQueue

It is nice to see sainty back with another thought provoking thread.
RE:
I'm of the belief that our coinage is among the most boring, least artistic and redundant since the last great designs initiated in the “19-teens”. Since then we have accepted mediocrity and retooling over displaying statements and grandeur that American coinage boldly displayed for a century and a half. We have complacently settled on the idea that Presidents (politicians) were good enough for what we want standing for as American icons.

As do many others, I agree with his main points. I see another problem in changing coinage, the clad base material we issue. It is not a canvas that lends itself to statements of grandeur.