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This card could not have graded a 9?!?!?!?!?
JoeBanzai
Posts: 11,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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JoeBanzai
Posts: 11,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
JoeBanzai
Posts: 11,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am really glad I missed this one, it would have really been a dilemma for me as this particular card is VERY hard to find (for me at least) in high grade. Best I have been able to find is a PSA 6.
Population report shows one 10, three 9's, two 8's for higher grades and only thirteen total graded for this card! There's another 9 that looks correctly graded on ebay right now for $450.00. That price is too rich for my blood, but it would have been tempting to pick up the one I am complaining about for my registry set.
Brings up another question. Shouldn't PSA have to change the grade on this OBVIOUS mistake even if the owner doesn't agree? Cards like this really make a mockery out of the Master Set Registry. Agree with it or not, people (including myself) spend huge sums of money to get the high grade cards and then you see something like this. I do realize mistakes happen, but shouldn't we attempt to fix them?
Here's another example of a Bazooka card with the incorrect year. Hard to believe this can happen.
Actually a 1965
Edited to add population information
<< <i>To the best of my knowledge hand cut cards that are issued with dotted/dashed lines bordering them must have those lines showing all the way around. The bottom of this example is cut way too close to the card and not very straight either.
I am really glad I missed this one, it would have really been a dilemma for me as this particular card is VERY hard to find (for me at least) in high grade. Best I have been able to find is a PSA 6.
Population report shows one 10, three 9's, two 8's for higher grades and only thirteen total graded for this card! There's another 9 that looks correctly graded on ebay right now for $450.00. That price is too rich for my blood, but it would have been tempting to pick up the one I am complaining about for my registry set.
Brings up another question. Shouldn't PSA have to change the grade on this OBVIOUS mistake even if the owner doesn't agree? Cards like this really make a mockery out of the Master Set Registry. Agree with it or not, people (including myself) spend huge sums of money to get the high grade cards and then you see something like this. I do realize mistakes happen, but shouldn't we attempt to fix them?
Here's another example of a Bazooka card with the incorrect year. Hard to believe this can happen.
Actually a 1965
Edited to add population information >>
How would you suggest PSA changes the grade without the owner agreeing?
PSA: Hey send us that card back cause we need to change it from a 9 to a lower grade
Owner: No.
Owner doesn't have to agree or return the card. He/she would be compensated by PSA if it was determined that it was their (PSA's) mistake and returned.
Obviously someone would be angry, but this IS an incorrectly graded card. I looked closely at the scan, slab sure doesn't look to be tampered with.
How about the other card with an incorrect year? Should we ignore the mistakes?
PSA does a GREAT job, and if this is one of their rare mistakes, I for one feel that the database should be as accurate as possible. Yes I realize the database is flawed because of cards that are crackouts that the old flips don't get sent in.
Part of the fun of the hobby for me was discovering the registry. Having collected my favorite player for 20 years, I was able to spend a lot of money on grading fees and eventually have the number one finest set. Would it be fair if I, or anyone, was surpassed by a set with obviously misgraded cards like the ones I have discovered? Cards like these can carry a lot of "weight" in a registry set.
Don't get me wrong, I am not having a nervous breakdown here! Just looking for some solutions.............................not a big message board debate.
<< <i>7.5 or 8 at best. If the owner is happy with the card, so be it I guess. >>
Card would grade much lower in my experience, most likely "authentic".
Since it went for $150.00, I would think owner is ecstatic!
<< <i>To the best of my knowledge hand cut cards that are issued with dotted/dashed lines bordering them must have those lines showing all the way around. The bottom of this example is cut way too close to the card and not very straight either. >>
The Grading of Hand-Cut Cards
In order for PSA to actually assign a grade to any of the cards that possess visible/defined borders on all four sides, evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue. If the cut exceeds the visible border for the card in question, PSA will encapsulate the card as "Authentic" only. If the card is severely undersized and suffers in overall eye appeal, the graders may deem the card not suitable for authentication or reject the card as minimum-sized altogether.
Keep in mind that, for cards that do not possess visible/defined borders, the cards must still fall within a certain size requirement for that particular issue in order to qualify for an actual grade. In other words, the borders must be virtually full in order for a grade to be rendered. Otherwise, as stated above, a label of "Authentic" will be assigned or, in some cases, the cards may fall short of the size requirement altogether. This is not an exact science. PSA will do its best to provide consistent guidelines for these types of cards.
PSA suggests that, in order to achieve the highest grades, the cuts of the cards should be relatively close to the visible borders without exceeding the limit. Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades. Eye appeal is very important. When it comes to excess paper or cardboard around the edges of the visible borders, the graders will place significant importance on overall eye appeal. Keep in mind that all cards of this type will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label for accuracy. In addition, if the customer chooses, PSA will grade and encapsulate entire panels if those panels will fit in any of our current PSA holders. With the exception of the aforementioned items, normal grading criteria will apply.
Two particular things stand out to me. The first is "...evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue." The key word in that statement is "or". The card appears to "exhibit virtually-full borders" in my opinion. The second is "Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades." The card appears to qualify based on this statement as well.
When I first looked at the card it appeared to be trimmed. Then I noticed the HAND CUT designation on the PSA holder, and it made perfect sense. In spite of that, the card has very nice eye appeal. The only thing that should keep it from a PSA 9 grade is if there was originally a border that went around the entire card and the card was cut too small within all four lines. Considering the overall appearance of the card, I think that PSA got it right.
were i a Master Set builder like the OP, i'd be rather disappointed with the lack of accuracy and the effect it would have on the graded value of my own set.
<< <i>I agree Joe. All the Bazooka hand cut cards must show the dotted lines around the border. The card has very nice eye appeal but only deserves the authentic grade per PSA guidelines. They messed up. >>
+1
When I was submitting the 63 Musial Bazooka cards, all cards that didnt show the dotted lines completely around all four borders were coming back as AUTH. Just a case of one getting by the goalie.
I collect: 80’s Rookies and 86 Fleer Basketball
<< <i>
<< <i>To the best of my knowledge hand cut cards that are issued with dotted/dashed lines bordering them must have those lines showing all the way around. The bottom of this example is cut way too close to the card and not very straight either. >>
The Grading of Hand-Cut Cards
In order for PSA to actually assign a grade to any of the cards that possess visible/defined borders on all four sides, evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue. If the cut exceeds the visible border for the card in question, PSA will encapsulate the card as "Authentic" only. If the card is severely undersized and suffers in overall eye appeal, the graders may deem the card not suitable for authentication or reject the card as minimum-sized altogether.
Keep in mind that, for cards that do not possess visible/defined borders, the cards must still fall within a certain size requirement for that particular issue in order to qualify for an actual grade. In other words, the borders must be virtually full in order for a grade to be rendered. Otherwise, as stated above, a label of "Authentic" will be assigned or, in some cases, the cards may fall short of the size requirement altogether. This is not an exact science. PSA will do its best to provide consistent guidelines for these types of cards.
PSA suggests that, in order to achieve the highest grades, the cuts of the cards should be relatively close to the visible borders without exceeding the limit. Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades. Eye appeal is very important. When it comes to excess paper or cardboard around the edges of the visible borders, the graders will place significant importance on overall eye appeal. Keep in mind that all cards of this type will be designated as "Hand-Cut" on the PSA label for accuracy. In addition, if the customer chooses, PSA will grade and encapsulate entire panels if those panels will fit in any of our current PSA holders. With the exception of the aforementioned items, normal grading criteria will apply.
Two particular things stand out to me. The first is "...evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue." The key word in that statement is "or". The card appears to "exhibit virtually-full borders" in my opinion. The second is "Cards that exhibit a clean, accurate and properly shaped cut have the best chance at achieving the highest grades." The card appears to qualify based on this statement as well.
When I first looked at the card it appeared to be trimmed. Then I noticed the HAND CUT designation on the PSA holder, and it made perfect sense. In spite of that, the card has very nice eye appeal. The only thing that should keep it from a PSA 9 grade is if there was originally a border that went around the entire card and the card was cut too small within all four lines. Considering the overall appearance of the card, I think that PSA got it right. >>
Hi MikeyP
I have examples of every hand cut Bazooka and Post cards issued of Harmon Killebrew from 1960-1971 and have submitted many others to PSA for grading, so I consider myself quite knowledgeable on the subject at hand.
PSA absolutely got it wrong here. This card is an "authentic".
Please check out the link provided the Aaron card looks MUCH better than the Killebrew 9, yet is only graded authentic.
Aaron authentic
Assuming that I am correct in this case, does anyone have a solution to this problem? I realize it's not the biggest issue on the boards, but I am curious to hear what fellow collectors think.
Joe
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
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I had some pretty bad experiences sending it handcut cards when I was building my Mike Bossy player sets, and learned not to cut ANY of the border.
PSA should eat the cost of this IMO and offer to buy the card back for the price paid. This isn't a gray area like "is this a 7 or 8" it's pretty cut and dry. That card needs to go into the database as a PSA "Authentic" grade.
In order for PSA to actually assign a grade to any of the cards that possess visible/defined borders on all four sides, evidence of that border must be present or the card must exhibit virtually-full borders based on the design of the specific issue. If the cut exceeds the visible border for the card in question, PSA will encapsulate the card as "Authentic" only. If the card is severely undersized and suffers in overall eye appeal, the graders may deem the card not suitable for authentication or reject the card as minimum-sized altogether.
In reading this, it does get a little confusing, but for the cards with visible/defined borders, PSA has required the border markings to be visible on all four sides with virtually none of the "dots/dashes" missing.
Shane
<< <i>As was said before this card is a very nice copy. Some of these Bazooka cards have been inaccurately graded but not very many from what I have seen. The 1959 Bazooka set is one that I follow pretty closely and I have only seen two that did not meet the requirements that were technically graded. The collectors that collect Bazooka type cards would much rather pass on a card like this for their PC and wait for one that has these strict requirements.
Shane >>
Absolutely correct! Although if you look at the scan of the back of the card you MIGHT change your mind about this being a "very nice copy".
It would seem that this is the case here as a "9" would go for much more than $150.00. I am glad I wasn't tempted to go for a bargain here, as I missed this one!
Joe
<< <i>no offense but the grading of hand cuts in general is just stupid. the subsequent arguing about if a hand cut card is a 7 8 or 9 seems even more ludicrous. >>
Stupid?
Was it stupid when I purchased a set of Bazooka panels and cut them down to size, sent them in and got $1,500.00 for a PSA 9 panel featuring Roberto Clemente? Gee I felt rather smart when it sold?!?!?!?!?!?!? Yes, I made a nice profit.
If you don't care about the discussion, that's fine, but the discussion, and the people discussing it, are NOT stupid. Might not make a difference to you, but to clarify.........it isn't an "argument" about the card being a 7-8-9 but a 1 or a 9. Pretty significant difference.
Saying no offense, and then calling people and their opinions stupid, is pretty stupid if you ask me. Take that any way you choose. Please choose to ignore any "stupid" posts in the future, us dummies don't need your permission to waste our time.
Have a nice day!
<< <i>Please check out the link provided the Aaron card looks MUCH better than the Killebrew 9, yet is only graded authentic. >>
Thanks for the link Joe Banzai. The Hank Aaron card is definitely a nicer card. Do you agree that it should have been graded PSA AUTHENTIC? I would have no problem with it being graded PSA 9, based on what I have read about the grading of hand-cut cards on the PSA website.
My only purpose for originally replying was to show that PSA may be able to defend the grade of PSA 9. You guys definitely have more experience with Bazooka cards than I do. If it is typical for PSA to deem a hand-cut card PSA AUTHENTIC if the card does not show evidence of "visible/defined borders on all four sides", there is no other reasonable explanation that I can think of other than what I have previously stated. The possibility of the original card being removed, and the current card being inserted into the holder to replace it, would be another theory worth considering.
If none of the cards in your collection have the same appearance as this one, I would simply stick to an appearance that you are comfortable with. I would also be interested to see if there are any other Bazooka cards that have been cut the same way that have received anything other than a grade of PSA AUTHENTIC.
<< <i> The Hank Aaron card is definitely a nicer card. Do you agree that it should have been graded PSA AUTHENTIC? I would have no problem with it being graded PSA 9, based on what I have read about the grading of hand-cut cards on the PSA website.
My only purpose for originally replying was to show that PSA may be able to defend the grade of PSA 9. You guys definitely have more experience with Bazooka cards than I do. If it is typical for PSA to deem a hand-cut card PSA AUTHENTIC if the card does not show evidence of "visible/defined borders on all four sides", there is no other reasonable explanation that I can think of other than what I have previously stated. The possibility of the original card being removed, and the current card being inserted into the holder to replace it, would be another theory worth considering.
If none of the cards in your collection have the same appearance as this one, I would simply stick to an appearance that you are comfortable with. I would also be interested to see if there are any other Bazooka cards that have been cut the same way that have received anything other than a grade of PSA AUTHENTIC. >>
Good question on the Aaron card. The curious thing about it is; the right edge is missing the "dots" but it's the left side that shares it's border with another player.
PSA has been pretty consistent with the lack of border leading to an authentic grade, so I'll reluctantly say the Aaron is accurately graded. Too late to change things now. However if PSA would allow for one side being missing the border because the border is shared with another player, I would agree. After all how can two cards have only one border? It's then impossible to cut up a three panel Bazooka box and not "ruin" at least one of the cards, if you want the center card both outside cards are going to be authentic.
Joe
<< <i>
Assuming that I am correct in this case, does anyone have a solution to this problem? I realize it's not the biggest issue on the boards, but I am curious to hear what fellow collectors think.
Joe >>
Collect RAW and quit wasting your money for the opinion of some hourly employee?
<< <i>Stupid?
Was it stupid when I purchased a set of Bazooka panels and cut them down to size, sent them in and got $1,500.00 for a PSA 9 panel featuring Roberto Clemente? Gee I felt rather smart when it sold?!?!?!?!?!?!? Yes, I made a nice profit.
If you don't care about the discussion, that's fine, but the discussion, and the people discussing it, are NOT stupid. Might not make a difference to you, but to clarify.........it isn't an "argument" about the card being a 7-8-9 but a 1 or a 9. Pretty significant difference.
Saying no offense, and then calling people and their opinions stupid, is pretty stupid if you ask me. Take that any way you choose. Please choose to ignore any "stupid" posts in the future, us dummies don't need your permission to waste our time.
Have a nice day! >>
I guess you have a problem interpreting the english language so maybe your interpretation is correct.
you are so awesome, you made a profit. good thing you need to brag because no one has ever made a profit on selling a graded card so you can make us all feel good.
I said the "grading" of hand cuts is stupid, never said anyone is stupid. It is a creation of psa to generate revenue and feed the registry. grading a card based on who has a better exacto knife is stupid, have fun , and for the record you degraded all your friends calling them dummies, not me
<< <i>
<< <i>Stupid?
Was it stupid when I purchased a set of Bazooka panels and cut them down to size, sent them in and got $1,500.00 for a PSA 9 panel featuring Roberto Clemente? Gee I felt rather smart when it sold?!?!?!?!?!?!? Yes, I made a nice profit.
If you don't care about the discussion, that's fine, but the discussion, and the people discussing it, are NOT stupid. Might not make a difference to you, but to clarify.........it isn't an "argument" about the card being a 7-8-9 but a 1 or a 9. Pretty significant difference.
Saying no offense, and then calling people and their opinions stupid, is pretty stupid if you ask me. Take that any way you choose. Please choose to ignore any "stupid" posts in the future, us dummies don't need your permission to waste our time.
Have a nice day! >>
I guess you have a problem interpreting the english language so maybe your interpretation is correct.
you are so awesome, you made a profit. good thing you need to brag because no one has ever made a profit on selling a graded card so you can make us all feel good.
I said the "grading" of hand cuts is stupid, never said anyone is stupid. It is a creation of psa to generate revenue and feed the registry. grading a card based on who has a better exacto knife is stupid, have fun , and for the record you degraded all your friends calling them dummies, not me >>
I guess you aren't aware of, or do not understand sarcasm. You will learn about that next year in third grade.
Thousands of hand cut cards have been graded, if saying that grading them is stupid, it stands to reason you are also saying those of us that pay to have them graded MUST be stupid.
If PSA creates something that is as popular as the set registry to create more revenue, and it is a huge success, with many happy customers, this is called "smart".
It is you who have the problem interpreting things. Everyone posting on this thread has been called stupid by you, and that is simply incorrect.
Now that you have chosen to continue to post on this "stupid" thread proves that you consider yourself stupid. I will not try to enlighten you any more, you are incapable of understanding that our opinions are not stupid.
Please continue to post, I can always use a good laugh.
Have a nice day!
<< <i>I agree Joe. All the Bazooka hand cut cards must show the dotted lines around the border. The card has very nice eye appeal but only deserves the authentic grade per PSA guidelines. They messed up. >>
+1
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"If the information listed above appears to be incorrect, please contact customer service at 800-325-1121 or email us at info@psacard.com."
They also say;
"PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA."
I notified PSA of my question about this card and will post their reply if/when they respond.
Thanks to those of you who do NOT think this was a stupid discussion.