Help with a George Washington Security Medal

Smittys

Found the first one PA145 not sure of it's current value .
Can't find the second one.
Anyone wanna chime in ?
Size of a half dollar, the first one is really thick, second one about the same thickness as a half
not sure of metal, first is White metal not sure on second

BillJones

The first piece is listed in Rulau in white metal as PA-PH 35 with an issue date of 1869. The prices listed are $50 for EF and $85 for Unc. That piece is not in Mint State IMO.

The second piece looks like an unused soldier's dog tag. Since this is post Civil War I'm sure that it is worth that much. Civil War era dog tags are generally a few to several hundred dollars.

NumisOxide

The second one was struck by Thomas Elder in the early 20th century. Its s fantasy civil war dog tag.I have one in whit metal. I've seen them sell for around 60-80 dollars.

coindeuce

<< <i>The second one was struck by Thomas Elder in the early 20th century. Its s fantasy civil war dog tag.I have one in white metal. I've seen them sell for around 60-80 dollars. >>



I find it hard to believe that Thomas Elder would be striking a "dog tag" signed by Robert Lovett. This piece is listed in Rulau's Medallic Portaits of Washington 2nd.edition(1999) as B-620 thru B-621A(Multiple different compositions). No mention of Elder in Rulau's attribution. The Brass and gilt copper compositions of this design are more likely to have been contemporary to the Civil War period, with named (Union soldier) specimens bringing high premiums.

Broadstruck

<< <i>I find it hard to believe that Thomas Elder would be striking a "dog tag" signed by Robert Lovett. >>



Elder did as he used the Robert Lovett obverse die on a dog tag issued in Aluminum & Brass circa 1916-18.

Edited to add: Rulau doesn't cover them but CaptainHenway's booklet on Thomas Elder Medals & Tokens does.

coindeuce

<< <i>

<< <i>I find it hard to believe that Thomas Elder would be striking a "dog tag" signed by Robert Lovett. >>



Elder did as he used the Robert Lovett obverse die on a dog tag issued in Aluminum & Brass circa 1916-18. >>



Thanks for the clarification. So, how would one distinguish between a Brass example struck by Lovett circa 1862, and a Brass example struck by Elder circa 1916-1918 ?

NumisOxide

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I find it hard to believe that Thomas Elder would be striking a "dog tag" signed by Robert Lovett. >>



Elder did as he used the Robert Lovett obverse die on a dog tag issued in Aluminum & Brass circa 1916-18. >>



Thanks for the clarification. So, how would one distinguish between a Brass example struck by Lovett circa 1862, and a Brass example struck by Elder circa 1916-1918 ? >>


The obverse die is from the 1860's. The reverse "dog tag" is a newer 20th century die Elder had manufactured. He just paired the two dies together to create a fantasy issue.

coindeuce

If you look at the photo plate in Rulau of the 1861-1863 Lovett issues, the obverse and reverse match the 20th century Elder strike shown by the OP. Thus my question.

NumisOxide

<< <i>If you look at the photo plate in Rulau of the 1861-1863 Lovett issues, the obverse and reverse match the 20th century Elder strike shown by the OP. Thus my question. >>

Hmm interesting now I'm curious. I read somewhere that the reverse die was an Elder creation. So I guess Elder just paired two old dies together to create a mule. I just searched google and someone said that the reverse die was a Hanson die. Great thread.

CaptHenway

In 1917 Elder used the old Lovett Washington obverse, which he had previously used in 1916 with a new reverse die to strike a medal calling for a more artistic U.S. coinage (DeLorey-99), to strike two World War One propaganda pieces (DeLorey-100 & 101, obviously with new reverse dies) AND his "Soldiers Identification Medal" (DeLorey-102) with another new reverse die. He never claimed it was a Civil War piece. It is not a restrike; it is a new medal re-using one old die.

Curto got it wrong. Rulau got it wrong. I knew Rulau from when we both worked for Amos Press, and like many of us he declined with age. I know I sure have.

His Washington book was very erratic when it came to listing the Elder pieces from my article; some are in, and others not in no logical pattern. After it appeared I asked him at the next ANA convention why he did not list all of the Washington pieces in my article, and he mumbled something like "Well, the book does not need to be complete."