Show sales killed off online sales? The show sales were where the money was. Online sales subject to months long delivery times and ever shifting ship dates.
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
If they want them bad enough they would have made the trip. Hundreds did. >>
thousands can't (means)
and means is the big reason I don't like the paid line sitters. the single collector vs. a business with the ability to pay people to show up the day before to wait in line? Not a fair system. I can't compete with a bankroll that can stuff hundreds in line with money in hand or pre-paids in hand at $1240 a pop plus the time to pay the sitters plus the overhead, plus, plus, plus. (security? food? gotta pay the people paying the sitters? pay the guy at the counter handing over the money? anything else?)
we're down to the 1% of coin collecting. you got the big money who can compete and those paying a markup to them to get what should have been more equitably available because they are allowed to pay people to sit in line whilst the rest are occupying a place in line on ebay instead.
While it was nice to see some people make a few hundred bucks or more immediately flipping their coins, a lot of this money came at the expense of the dignity of the Hobby of Kings. The fights, robberies, other security risks, and foul air by lot viewing mentioned wouldn't have happened without this release, and I hope the mint and the ANA learned a lesson here and will find better ways to promote the hobby in the future.
Hats off to the US Mint for once again creating a feeding frenzy for one of their products. They are the reason we have a US Coin Forum.
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
It took em a couple days too long, but pulling the plug was the right thing to do. What an absolute sideshow this was.... at the ANA's signature yearly event no less. Sure made a sad spectacle of the show. Oh, I finally looked at one of the coins too....... meh.
I had dinner last nite w/ head of security for The show, -& he said there were NO assaults Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
No reports were given to Any security entities at the Show, and no police reports were filed.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
<< <i>While it was nice to see some people make a few hundred bucks or more immediately flipping their coins, a lot of this money came at the expense of the dignity of the Hobby of Kings. The fights, robberies, other security risks, and foul air by lot viewing mentioned wouldn't have happened without this release, and I hope the mint and the ANA learned a lesson here and will find better ways to promote the hobby in the future. >>
<< <i>The cops said it was due to the fights and yes they said a bathroom robbery occurred. They also touched on concerns over some of the dealers being targets for robberies later. Do cops make up stuff? Absolutely. Were some of these cops idiots? Absolutely. They are the ones caused the stampede and near riot the other night. They told the crowd of 300+ to: "OK everybody run across the street" over the PA...
So basically, this is now even better for those dealers that abused the system (POPS reduced by 1,000), one of which is at the show right by the mint counter, and based on my observations actually orchestrated a war room type plan to buy hundreds and hundreds of these sets daily. This dealer had pockets of 6-10 people positioned throughout the lines of 500+. They had guys walking up and down in the streets counting to know exactly how many sets they had locked up at any given time and knew their position. If and when they had a need for more, they would simply add to their positioned groups with impunity...groups of 6 became 10, etc. Missing Credentials, no problem they bought hundreds and they were openly passed around in unlimited quantities, just grab a pen and make sure the person knows what to do and how to spell their names. Now, if 1 person cut the line they'd get practically beat down...dozens of preppy boys being shifted in, nobody said anything. Day 1 I honestly thought these people worked for the event. By day 2, I had it all figured out when I saw the same people buying behind the curtain as well.
Anyways, quite the operation they had going. >>
I don't care for boycotts, but I would not be against adding these to dealers to my "bottom feeder" list when I go shopping at a show. When I attend a show there are dealers I see first and then I go down the list until I've hit the bottom. This is based on my past experience with the concerns involved. I doubt that any of the dealers from whom I purchase coins regularly were involved in this.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>I had dinner last nite w/ head of security for The show, -& he said there were NO assaults Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
No reports were given to Any security entities at the Show, and no police reports were filed.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all >>
Well said, Fred. The line that I saw was orderly and did not "smell."
The only problem I saw with the "festival seating" sales procedure was that people at the show couldn't just walk over and buy the coins themselves to make the quick flip profit, and they resented the people who did buy them.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
<< <i>Gee....let's list the causes for the stoppage They didn't want to help pay for security? They found out PCGS and NGC are making special labels? The people buying the coins weren't sticking around for the coins show?
Any others? >>
Silvertown made a deal with the mint for the rest of the coins. >>
Looks like Silvertown got 100 NGC first day issue slabed from each location. ( And all 70's)
In all of the mint statements I don't remember any mention about what was going to happen with
remaining coins allocated for sale. I guess they grew leggs and walked away.
Money can't buy me love, however it can buy a Boatload of Gold Kennedys.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Interesting how they go 400/400 at NGC and I went 0/1... and I rejected two coins that were worse at the Mint booth before settling on the one I took with the least issues. If true, I'm probably going to ask for my show grading fee to be refunded as 400/400 in 70 is just not possible if grading standards are uniform for all customers.
Not all 70's. They did get a couple of 69's in Chicago.
August 7, 2014 at 8:56 pm
In case anyone wants to keep track, as of 8:45 8/7, CV has the following on sale:
NGC PF70 4 pc set 16 available NGC PF70 Phila 80 available NGC PF70 Denver 80 available NGC PF70 DC 80 available NGC PF70 Chicago 57 available NGC PF69 Chicago 18 available
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Fred, I'm sorry but I don't believe there would be a coin show that size with no robberies. There are usually robberies without the Mint-sponsored circus. Sounds like the security guy went to the same school as our local resort area weather reporters who are on air telling people how beautiful the beach weather is while we're actually getting torrential rainstorms.
I'm pretty disappointed the sales were haulted. I hired 10 college kids off craigslist to wait in line with me for Wednesday and we all got coins. I sold them and hired an additional 10 to wait in line for Thursday but called it off when I heard sales were cancelled. I was trying to make enough money to finance an entire semester of college this week.
<< <i>The cops said it was due to the fights and yes they said a bathroom robbery occurred. They also touched on concerns over some of the dealers being targets for robberies later. Do cops make up stuff? Absolutely. Were some of these cops idiots? Absolutely. They are the ones caused the stampede and near riot the other night. They told the crowd of 300+ to: "OK everybody run across the street" over the PA...
So basically, this is now even better for those dealers that abused the system (POPS reduced by 1,000), one of which is at the show right by the mint counter, and based on my observations actually orchestrated a war room type plan to buy hundreds and hundreds of these sets daily. This dealer had pockets of 6-10 people positioned throughout the lines of 500+. They had guys walking up and down in the streets counting to know exactly how many sets they had locked up at any given time and knew their position. If and when they had a need for more, they would simply add to their positioned groups with impunity...groups of 6 became 10, etc. Missing Credentials, no problem they bought hundreds and they were openly passed around in unlimited quantities, just grab a pen and make sure the person knows what to do and how to spell their names. Now, if 1 person cut the line they'd get practically beat down...dozens of preppy boys being shifted in, nobody said anything. Day 1 I honestly thought these people worked for the event. By day 2, I had it all figured out when I saw the same people buying behind the curtain as well.
Anyways, quite the operation they had going. >>
If people think this behavior is shameful then lets put up a list of the worst offenders. Otherwise its just like the coin doctor situation where certain posters all say they know who the culprits are but no one names names. I'm just a collector I've got a full time job I don't have time to be Columbo and comb through 50 threads looking for clues.
It seems to be okay to out bad ebay sellers on the board what is the difference?
Why name names? You'll probably know them when they start selling the inflated coins by the numbers in their inventory. That said, Mint and ANA should take responsibility for any backlash IMO.
<< <i>Why name names? You'll probably know them when they start selling the inflated coins by the numbers in their inventory. That said, Mint and ANA should take responsibility for any backlash IMO. >>
Names will be easily noticed ... as a guide look at the biggest sellers of the ANA gold reverse buff
I'm wondering why the ANA (or the Mint, really) didn't think to offer these coins on ANA's website only? Give ANA 2500 to sell online, have ANA put special labels on the packaging or boxing...something to set it apart. It would still stoke interest in the ANA show (at least virtually), control mob scenes, yet still give collectors at least a more comfortable "even" shot at getting a special coin sold by ANA (or whatever other vendor).
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too.
<< <i>I'm wondering why the ANA (or the Mint, really) didn't think to offer these coins on ANA's website only? Give ANA 2500 to sell online, have ANA put special labels on the packaging or boxing...something to set it apart. It would still stoke interest in the ANA show (at least virtually), control mob scenes, yet still give collectors at least a more comfortable "even" shot at getting a special coin sold by ANA (or whatever other vendor).
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too. >>
it would show favoritism for a single seller.
also they should have sold on their own website only. they don't because acting director peterson wants to score sales figures from show appearances.
<< <i>I'm wondering why the ANA (or the Mint, really) didn't think to offer these coins on ANA's website only? Give ANA 2500 to sell online, have ANA put special labels on the packaging or boxing...something to set it apart. It would still stoke interest in the ANA show (at least virtually), control mob scenes, yet still give collectors at least a more comfortable "even" shot at getting a special coin sold by ANA (or whatever other vendor).
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too. >>
it would show favoritism for a single seller.
also they should have sold on their own website only. they don't because acting director peterson wants to score sales figures from show appearances. >>
Favoritism is already being shown to ANA by allowing them to sell at the show now, and no one else (other than Mint offices). My suggestion is rooted in making "fair access" a bit fairer. Not that an online marketplace isn't easy to take over, of course.
Oh...Ms Morrisine...I see I didn'f fully explain: If the Mint wants to sell through a favorite outlet (like the ANA), in addition to the Mint's own sales attempts, then that favored seller should ONLY sell online...seems to be about the only method that is somewhat "fair." You raise a great point though: Why only the ANA?
U.S. Mint and American Numismatic Association Suspend Sales of 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint and the American Numismatic Association (ANA) announced today that sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin have been suspended at the ANA's World's Fair of Money in Rosemont, Ill. The Mint and the ANA made the decision to ensure the safety of those wanting to purchase the coin and the safety of their own employees.
The Mint also suspended sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin at its three retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Uncirculated Coin Set, and other Mint products, will remain available for purchase at the World's Fair of Money. However, the set will not be available for purchase at the Mint's retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The United States Mint also announced today that it has all the necessary raw materials to initially produce 75,000 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coins. The Mint will continue to procure additional raw materials in order to fulfill all demand for this product.
"The Mint is very proud to have produced over 40,000 of these beautiful coins," said Deputy Director Dick Peterson. "We will continue to produce 6,000 of the coins per week for the next several weeks and continue to assess demand. We are committed to maximizing access to these products," Peterson said.
Customers interested in purchasing the coin are encouraged to visit the Mint's website (http://www.usmint.gov/) or contact the call center (1-800-USA-MINT), where they can purchase up to five coins per household.
<< <i>U.S. Mint and American Numismatic Association Suspend Sales of 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint and the American Numismatic Association (ANA) announced today that sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin have been suspended at the ANA's World's Fair of Money in Rosemont, Ill. The Mint and the ANA made the decision to ensure the safety of those wanting to purchase the coin and the safety of their own employees.
The Mint also suspended sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin at its three retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Uncirculated Coin Set, and other Mint products, will remain available for purchase at the World's Fair of Money. However, the set will not be available for purchase at the Mint's retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The United States Mint also announced today that it has all the necessary raw materials to initially produce 75,000 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coins. The Mint will continue to procure additional raw materials in order to fulfill all demand for this product.
"The Mint is very proud to have produced over 40,000 of these beautiful coins," said Deputy Director Dick Peterson. "We will continue to produce 6,000 of the coins per week for the next several weeks and continue to assess demand. We are committed to maximizing access to these products," Peterson said.
Customers interested in purchasing the coin are encouraged to visit the Mint's website (http://www.usmint.gov/) or contact the call center (1-800-USA-MINT), where they can purchase up to five coins per household.
I was referring to reports of armed robbery in The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center, Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you Want to believe.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
<< <i>I was referring to reports of armed robbery in The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center, Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you Want to believe. >>
it is an EDIT: UNconfirmed report denied by head of security. (it would be nice to hear from someone who checked police reports that for the show days.) One would think head of security would know. My point is "fog of war" not "I don't believe you nor him."
I'm was also saying my mind is open to possibilities at this point.
your point about the scuffles is made and understood.
<< <i>I was referring to reports of armed robbery in The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center, Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you Want to believe. >>
it is an EDIT: UNconfirmed report denied by head of security. (it would be nice to hear from someone who checked police reports that for the show days.) One would think head of security would know. My point is "fog of war" not "I don't believe you nor him."
I'm was also saying my mind is open to possibilities at this point.
your point about the scuffles is made and understood. >>
I have gotten off my duff and called the records dept of the Rosemont police seeking to clear the "fog of war" and making this more official.
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
My position since the first made the announcement that they would be selling them on release day.
It's about time they took their heads out of their butts and actually started practicing "fair and equal access". Now if their system would recognize us "West Coast" folks and start providing "fari and equal" access, I'd be a happy camper! >>
?
besides being prime-time drive-time, are there any other pacific coast time issues to know about with online only releases? >>
Absolutely. Even though this is the "age of the internet", online accesses are definitely skewed toward location. Not always mind you, but most of the time. And if you truly think otherwise, then you know very little about electricity which takes the path of least resistance. Folks that are closer to the US Mint location get milliseconds quicker access than folks that are further away. And milliseconds, can make the difference between 1,000 and 5,000 folks in line. An hour and a half wait vs a five minute wait.
If 50,000 people all login at 11:45pm ET, which of the 50,000 are going to get put into the waiting room first? Those that the system can reconcile first of those that are coming through distant routers and servers?
And yeah, yeah, I've heard that it doesn't make a difference which, truthfully, it doesn't. That is, unless you're on the West Coast.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Just to ask the question, if there will be no more "new" coins sold at events . . . what happens to the value of Balto-CHI label coins now???
Just a question. . . >>
For me?
Nothing since I would never even consider paying a premium for a "coin show specific TPG label" and, IMO, anybody that does is either an idiot or a fool. I do not mind paying a premium for coins which have limited availability but when that "limited availability" is due solely to a coin show?
I just do not think so and really pity the poor schmuck that paid $100,000 for the "First Sold".
Will the TPG's now have a "First Sold" label for the first person to get their submissions in for grading? I wouldn't be surprised.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
My position since the first made the announcement that they would be selling them on release day.
It's about time they took their heads out of their butts and actually started practicing "fair and equal access". Now if their system would recognize us "West Coast" folks and start providing "fari and equal" access, I'd be a happy camper! >>
?
besides being prime-time drive-time, are there any other pacific coast time issues to know about with online only releases? >>
Absolutely. Even though this is the "age of the internet", online accesses are definitely skewed toward location. Not always mind you, but most of the time. And if you truly think otherwise, then you know very little about electricity which takes the path of least resistance. Folks that are closer to the US Mint location get milliseconds quicker access than folks that are further away. And milliseconds, can make the difference between 1,000 and 5,000 folks in line. An hour and a half wait vs a five minute wait.
If 50,000 people all login at 11:45pm ET, which of the 50,000 are going to get put into the waiting room first? Those that the system can reconcile first of those that are coming through distant routers and servers?
And yeah, yeah, I've heard that it doesn't make a difference which, truthfully, it doesn't. That is, unless you're on the West Coast. >>
Sounds like you are advocating a stock like HFT system for accessing the Mint site. Maybe some forums members can put a business plan together and pitch this to Wall St.
I don't pity the buyer at 100k - I think it just served to underscore the absolute ridiculous nature of the whole "First Strike" and label business. Let's see, an identical product with any manner of plastic slabbed around it gives the original object a special cache AND value? Insanity.
I think of other posts wherein the real winners were to be those with the NGC First Day [whatever] coin. Who in their right mind cares, other than if he/she can make a profit at it?
In a previous post I had written than I had hoped this scenario would pan out and it would come to fisticuffs or whatever to end the madness of mint releases at coin shows, but just as with the previous posts, suckers are born every minute and no doubt there will be other artificial designations.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>The fault really lies with the incompetent US MINT and ANA Show managers.... remember how Jay Sherlock of the ANA ,here on this forum said everything was under control ,,that there would be no over night camping in line and on ...this Show fiasco is theirs Still no posts about The ANA Show , auctions.... bourse action ......Shame on the ANA >>
Incompetent ANA Show managers, huh? I reject your criticism. Here's why:
We were assured by Rosemont police that there would be no overnight camping. On Monday night, we had a sizable storm that included lightning. The Rosemont police attempted to disperse the growing crowd, but most of them went across the street and waited in the rain. The police finally relented, citing public safety issues -- i.e. they didn't want anyone struck by lightning.
On Tuesday night, they DID disperse the crowd for several hours (this is documented in many other forum posts). Finally, the crowd became too large to disperse, so again the Rosemont police, acting in the interest of public safety, allowed people to camp out.
On Wednesday night, allowed camping once again because of what had happened the previous two nights.
It might surprise you to learn that sometimes things don't go exactly as planned. Sometimes, you have to make adjustments on the fly. The ANA said all along that our concern was public safety. The Mint set the terms of the sale, because it's the Mint's product. The ANA made sure the public remained safe. In that regard, I'm proud of the way our organization handled the public safety issues.
PS -- My name is Jake, not Jay. Next time you're lobbing criticism my way, the least you could do is get my name right.
-------- Jake Sherlock, ANA staff member Member, TEC
interesting point. I'm not sure how internet speeds are affecting waiting room placement and connectivity for the nation as a whole, including AK, HI and Territories. (DC is probably ok as they are essentially on the internet backbone in that area)
I wonder if the mint has addressed geographic distribution in their new ordering system.
Then there is the rest of the world... but that's even harder to do and potentially not cost effective right now to drop servers in foreign countries hoping to take foreign money away from foreign mint products via competition.
<< <i>Hats off to the US Mint for once again creating a feeding frenzy for one of their products. They are the reason we have a US Coin Forum. >>
I don't think that the US Mint created this "feeding frenzy" as much as Coin Forums and Coin Dealers did.
We have no idea exactly "what" coin dealers were doing outside of the coin forums but I know that I have been contacted by certain coin dealers to preorder for them at a profit to me. Those items were then submitted for grading and sold at a profit until the interest dried up.
Specifically, the 5 oz pucks had a lot of coin dealers jumping into the profit boat and the Buf's and the HOF coins simply allowed them to refine their tactics. I mean, who in their right mind would not stand in line to order a coin if there was an immediate profit to be made of $50, $100, $500?
This was not the mints doing, it was our doing. We are the ones paying the big bucks for TPG labels, we are the ones saying that "I'm gonna order 5", "I'm going to the show to buy as many as I can to flip right away!" US.
The US Mint is simply offering a product which most folks "wanted". There was absolutely no mention of a 50th Anniversary Set by the US Mint in January of this year and very little mentioned of such a set on the coin forums late last year.
Once the mint made their announcement, the questions and hype began. Once the US Mint announced that the coins would be available on release day at the ANA Show, the Hype went into overdrive.
Notice that the US Mint only made announcements on product availability. The certainly weren't "hyping" the coin.
That was our job.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
The only error IMO that the US Mint did was in making the coins available on Release Day "at the Show".
Ok, but that is kinda the entirety of the problem.
What they sold in Chicago was a drop in the bucket, therefore they did not need to be sell them there. We obviously can't handle it. We turn into greedy demons. So please don't do this in the future.
<< <i>I don't pity the buyer at 100k - I think it just served to underscore the absolute ridiculous nature of the whole "First Strike" and label business. Let's see, an identical product with any manner of plastic slabbed around it gives the original object a special cache AND value? Insanity.
I think of other posts wherein the real winners were to be those with the NGC First Day [whatever] coin. Who in their right mind cares, other than if he/she can make a profit at it?
In a previous post I had written than I had hoped this scenario would pan out and it would come to fisticuffs or whatever to end the madness of mint releases at coin shows, but just as with the previous posts, suckers are born every minute and no doubt there will be other artificial designations. >>
Absolutely no doubt that the Coin Market has taken some serious high speed turns over that past 8 years.
I remember some posts about the King of Siam Set and the box these were originally delivered in. I also remember some posts about certain gold coins from over 100 years ago and the box that they came in.
All of a sudden, Original Mint Packaging became "the thing". "Certificates of Authenticity" took on the same value as a letter certifying that a particular coin was what it was purported to be.
Forget the coins..................buy the damned labels!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
How do other venues prevent people from lining up early? Any concert hall or sports team (except the Cleveland Browns) faces this problem all the time. Surely, there must be an answer.
<< <i>Is anyone concerned that the next show where the Mint sells coins that there will literally be gun battles and knife fights to be the first in line? The first guy is getting a 5 figure payout. Someone is going to end up dead...over coins. >>
Five figures? Six, if he'd held onto the coin 48 hours longer ...
<< <i>Is anyone concerned that the next show where the Mint sells coins that there will literally be gun battles and knife fights to be the first in line? The first guy is getting a 5 figure payout. Someone is going to end up dead...over coins. >>
I'd bet this sales format from the Mint is over. If they didn't learn their lesson this time I'd be very surprised. I saw some characters in line both Tuesday and Wednesday that were probably packing heat!!
Comments
and ever shifting ship dates.
The US Mint still sucks - no matter what they do.
<< <i>
<< <i>GOOD!
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
If they want them bad enough they would have made the trip. Hundreds did. >>
thousands can't (means)
and means is the big reason I don't like the paid line sitters. the single collector vs. a business with the ability to pay people to show up the day before to wait in line? Not a fair system. I can't compete with a bankroll that can stuff hundreds in line with money in hand or pre-paids in hand at $1240 a pop plus the time to pay the sitters plus the overhead, plus, plus, plus. (security? food? gotta pay the people paying the sitters? pay the guy at the counter handing over the money? anything else?)
we're down to the 1% of coin collecting. you got the big money who can compete and those paying a markup to them to get what should have been more equitably available because they are allowed to pay people to sit in line whilst the rest are occupying a place in line on ebay instead.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
"Money does not care about speeches on morality. Capital asks whether the rules will remain the same tomorrow. With inflation, people assume price is the problem, and propose regulation—but price is simply the message." - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Still no posts about The ANA Show , auctions.... bourse action ......Shame on the ANA >>
Can you put any blame on the ANA? I don't see how.
Big brother wants a booth, has an agenda not thought out, chaos ensues.
Should the ANA say, "Yo Mint, pack it up, you're stinking up the place and making a mockery of our show."?
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
The show, -& he said there were NO assaults
Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
No reports were given to Any security entities at the
Show, and no police reports were filed.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all
<< <i>While it was nice to see some people make a few hundred bucks or more immediately flipping their coins, a lot of this money came at the expense of the dignity of the Hobby of Kings. The fights, robberies, other security risks, and foul air by lot viewing mentioned wouldn't have happened without this release, and I hope the mint and the ANA learned a lesson here and will find better ways to promote the hobby in the future. >>
Well said.
<< <i>The cops said it was due to the fights and yes they said a bathroom robbery occurred. They also touched on concerns over some of the dealers being targets for robberies later. Do cops make up stuff? Absolutely. Were some of these cops idiots? Absolutely. They are the ones caused the stampede and near riot the other night. They told the crowd of 300+ to: "OK everybody run across the street" over the PA...
So basically, this is now even better for those dealers that abused the system (POPS reduced by 1,000), one of which is at the show right by the mint counter, and based on my observations actually orchestrated a war room type plan to buy hundreds and hundreds of these sets daily. This dealer had pockets of 6-10 people positioned throughout the lines of 500+. They had guys walking up and down in the streets counting to know exactly how many sets they had locked up at any given time and knew their position. If and when they had a need for more, they would simply add to their positioned groups with impunity...groups of 6 became 10, etc. Missing Credentials, no problem they bought hundreds and they were openly passed around in unlimited quantities, just grab a pen and make sure the person knows what to do and how to spell their names. Now, if 1 person cut the line they'd get practically beat down...dozens of preppy boys being shifted in, nobody said anything. Day 1 I honestly thought these people worked for the event. By day 2, I had it all figured out when I saw the same people buying behind the curtain as well.
Anyways, quite the operation they had going. >>
I don't care for boycotts, but I would not be against adding these to dealers to my "bottom feeder" list when I go shopping at a show. When I attend a show there are dealers I see first and then I go down the list until I've hit the bottom. This is based on my past experience with the concerns involved. I doubt that any of the dealers from whom I purchase coins regularly were involved in this.
<< <i>I had dinner last nite w/ head of security for
The show, -& he said there were NO assaults
Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
No reports were given to Any security entities at the
Show, and no police reports were filed.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all >>
Well said, Fred. The line that I saw was orderly and did not "smell."
The only problem I saw with the "festival seating" sales procedure was that people at the show couldn't just walk over and buy the coins themselves to make the quick flip profit, and they resented the people who did buy them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Gee....let's list the causes for the stoppage
They didn't want to help pay for security?
They found out PCGS and NGC are making special labels?
The people buying the coins weren't sticking around for the coins show?
Any others? >>
Silvertown made a deal with the mint for the rest of the coins.
Looks like Silvertown got 100 NGC first day issue slabed from each location. ( And all 70's)
In all of the mint statements I don't remember any mention about what was going to happen with
remaining coins allocated for sale. I guess they grew leggs and walked away.
Money can't buy me love, however it can buy a Boatload of Gold Kennedys.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
August 7, 2014 at 8:56 pm
In case anyone wants to keep track, as of 8:45 8/7, CV has the following on sale:
NGC PF70 4 pc set 16 available
NGC PF70 Phila 80 available
NGC PF70 Denver 80 available
NGC PF70 DC 80 available
NGC PF70 Chicago 57 available
NGC PF69 Chicago 18 available
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
Also possible is higher ups are not immediately informed of some things.
The mint and ANA did halt sales for security reasons after all.
Something scared them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Still no posts about The ANA Show , auctions.... bourse action ......Shame on the ANA >>
Can you put any blame on the ANA? I don't see how.
Big brother wants a booth, has an agenda not thought out, chaos ensues.
Should the ANA say, "Yo Mint, pack it up, you're stinking up the place and making a mockery of our show."? >>
all attention diverted by guess who ??? the Mint and ANA Show ..to gold kennedys .. even sleepy WGNTv covered the gold kennedys not the show
<< <i>The cops said it was due to the fights and yes they said a bathroom robbery occurred. They also touched on concerns over some of the dealers being targets for robberies later. Do cops make up stuff? Absolutely. Were some of these cops idiots? Absolutely. They are the ones caused the stampede and near riot the other night. They told the crowd of 300+ to: "OK everybody run across the street" over the PA...
So basically, this is now even better for those dealers that abused the system (POPS reduced by 1,000), one of which is at the show right by the mint counter, and based on my observations actually orchestrated a war room type plan to buy hundreds and hundreds of these sets daily. This dealer had pockets of 6-10 people positioned throughout the lines of 500+. They had guys walking up and down in the streets counting to know exactly how many sets they had locked up at any given time and knew their position. If and when they had a need for more, they would simply add to their positioned groups with impunity...groups of 6 became 10, etc. Missing Credentials, no problem they bought hundreds and they were openly passed around in unlimited quantities, just grab a pen and make sure the person knows what to do and how to spell their names. Now, if 1 person cut the line they'd get practically beat down...dozens of preppy boys being shifted in, nobody said anything. Day 1 I honestly thought these people worked for the event. By day 2, I had it all figured out when I saw the same people buying behind the curtain as well.
Anyways, quite the operation they had going. >>
If people think this behavior is shameful then lets put up a list of the worst offenders. Otherwise its just like the coin doctor situation where certain posters all say they know who the culprits are but no one names names. I'm just a collector I've got a full time job I don't have time to be Columbo and comb through 50 threads looking for clues.
It seems to be okay to out bad ebay sellers on the board what is the difference?
<< <i>Why name names? You'll probably know them when they start selling the inflated coins by the numbers in their inventory. That said, Mint and ANA should take responsibility for any backlash IMO. >>
Names will be easily noticed ... as a guide look at the biggest sellers of the ANA gold reverse buff
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too.
<< <i>I'm wondering why the ANA (or the Mint, really) didn't think to offer these coins on ANA's website only? Give ANA 2500 to sell online, have ANA put special labels on the packaging or boxing...something to set it apart. It would still stoke interest in the ANA show (at least virtually), control mob scenes, yet still give collectors at least a more comfortable "even" shot at getting a special coin sold by ANA (or whatever other vendor).
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too. >>
it would show favoritism for a single seller.
also they should have sold on their own website only. they don't because acting director peterson wants to score sales figures from show appearances.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm wondering why the ANA (or the Mint, really) didn't think to offer these coins on ANA's website only? Give ANA 2500 to sell online, have ANA put special labels on the packaging or boxing...something to set it apart. It would still stoke interest in the ANA show (at least virtually), control mob scenes, yet still give collectors at least a more comfortable "even" shot at getting a special coin sold by ANA (or whatever other vendor).
I realize they want to "stoke" interest in the show...maybe they could publish the details of how to order only at the show...but anything seems better than what occurred, despite the "urban legend" status some of the reports are gaining. Might quiet some of the jealous posts about fair access, too. >>
it would show favoritism for a single seller.
also they should have sold on their own website only. they don't because acting director peterson wants to score sales figures from show appearances. >>
Favoritism is already being shown to ANA by allowing them to sell at the show now, and no one else (other than Mint offices). My suggestion is rooted in making "fair access" a bit fairer. Not that an online marketplace isn't easy to take over, of course.
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint and the American Numismatic Association (ANA) announced today that sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin have been suspended at the ANA's World's Fair of Money in Rosemont, Ill. The Mint and the ANA made the decision to ensure the safety of those wanting to purchase the coin and the safety of their own employees.
The Mint also suspended sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin at its three retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Uncirculated Coin Set, and other Mint products, will remain available for purchase at the World's Fair of Money. However, the set will not be available for purchase at the Mint's retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The United States Mint also announced today that it has all the necessary raw materials to initially produce 75,000 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coins. The Mint will continue to procure additional raw materials in order to fulfill all demand for this product.
"The Mint is very proud to have produced over 40,000 of these beautiful coins," said Deputy Director Dick Peterson. "We will continue to produce 6,000 of the coins per week for the next several weeks and continue to assess demand. We are committed to maximizing access to these products," Peterson said.
Customers interested in purchasing the coin are encouraged to visit the Mint's website (http://www.usmint.gov/) or contact the call center (1-800-USA-MINT), where they can purchase up to five coins per household.
Mint Link
<< <i>U.S. Mint and American Numismatic Association Suspend Sales of 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint and the American Numismatic Association (ANA) announced today that sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin have been suspended at the ANA's World's Fair of Money in Rosemont, Ill. The Mint and the ANA made the decision to ensure the safety of those wanting to purchase the coin and the safety of their own employees.
The Mint also suspended sales of the 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coin at its three retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Uncirculated Coin Set, and other Mint products, will remain available for purchase at the World's Fair of Money. However, the set will not be available for purchase at the Mint's retail locations in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia and Denver.
The United States Mint also announced today that it has all the necessary raw materials to initially produce 75,000 2014 50th Anniversary Kennedy Half-Dollar Gold Proof Coins. The Mint will continue to procure additional raw materials in order to fulfill all demand for this product.
"The Mint is very proud to have produced over 40,000 of these beautiful coins," said Deputy Director Dick Peterson. "We will continue to produce 6,000 of the coins per week for the next several weeks and continue to assess demand. We are committed to maximizing access to these products," Peterson said.
Customers interested in purchasing the coin are encouraged to visit the Mint's website (http://www.usmint.gov/) or contact the call center (1-800-USA-MINT), where they can purchase up to five coins per household.
Mint Link >>
Damn goldbully.... running thru papers in my drawer , came upon your post about buying the 2006 20th anniv gold set ....back in 2006
The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in
The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center,
Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you
Want to believe.
<< <i>I was referring to reports of armed robbery in
The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in
The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center,
Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you
Want to believe. >>
it is an EDIT: UNconfirmed report denied by head of security. (it would be nice to hear from someone who checked police reports that for the show days.) One would think head of security would know. My point is "fog of war" not "I don't believe you nor him."
I'm was also saying my mind is open to possibilities at this point.
your point about the scuffles is made and understood.
Now that was a great Mint Product.....only 10k sets minted.
Glad my posts are immortalized in your desk bestday.......that was almost 8 years ago!
<< <i>
<< <i>I was referring to reports of armed robbery in
The restrooms ,NOT the fights and scuffles in
The outside lines.
If you got robbed inside the convention center,
Wouldn't you report it to the "higher Ups."
I repeat-- urban legend. ...and believe what you
Want to believe. >>
it is an EDIT: UNconfirmed report denied by head of security. (it would be nice to hear from someone who checked police reports that for the show days.) One would think head of security would know. My point is "fog of war" not "I don't believe you nor him."
I'm was also saying my mind is open to possibilities at this point.
your point about the scuffles is made and understood. >>
I have gotten off my duff and called the records dept of the Rosemont police seeking to clear the "fog of war" and making this more official.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>GOOD!
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
My position since the first made the announcement that they would be selling them on release day.
It's about time they took their heads out of their butts and actually started practicing "fair and equal access". Now if their system would recognize us "West Coast" folks and start providing "fari and equal" access, I'd be a happy camper! >>
?
besides being prime-time drive-time, are there any other pacific coast time issues to know about with online only releases? >>
Absolutely. Even though this is the "age of the internet", online accesses are definitely skewed toward location. Not always mind you, but most of the time. And if you truly think otherwise, then you know very little about electricity which takes the path of least resistance. Folks that are closer to the US Mint location get milliseconds quicker access than folks that are further away. And milliseconds, can make the difference between 1,000 and 5,000 folks in line. An hour and a half wait vs a five minute wait.
If 50,000 people all login at 11:45pm ET, which of the 50,000 are going to get put into the waiting room first? Those that the system can reconcile first of those that are coming through distant routers and servers?
And yeah, yeah, I've heard that it doesn't make a difference which, truthfully, it doesn't. That is, unless you're on the West Coast.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Just to ask the question, if there will be no more "new" coins sold at events . . . what happens to the value of Balto-CHI label coins now???
Just a question. . . >>
For me?
Nothing since I would never even consider paying a premium for a "coin show specific TPG label" and, IMO, anybody that does is either an idiot or a fool.
I do not mind paying a premium for coins which have limited availability but when that "limited availability" is due solely to a coin show?
I just do not think so and really pity the poor schmuck that paid $100,000 for the "First Sold".
Will the TPG's now have a "First Sold" label for the first person to get their submissions in for grading? I wouldn't be surprised.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>GOOD!
Maybe they will stop selling at the shows, and let other collectors have a chance to buy the coins. >>
My position since the first made the announcement that they would be selling them on release day.
It's about time they took their heads out of their butts and actually started practicing "fair and equal access". Now if their system would recognize us "West Coast" folks and start providing "fari and equal" access, I'd be a happy camper! >>
?
besides being prime-time drive-time, are there any other pacific coast time issues to know about with online only releases? >>
Absolutely. Even though this is the "age of the internet", online accesses are definitely skewed toward location. Not always mind you, but most of the time. And if you truly think otherwise, then you know very little about electricity which takes the path of least resistance. Folks that are closer to the US Mint location get milliseconds quicker access than folks that are further away. And milliseconds, can make the difference between 1,000 and 5,000 folks in line. An hour and a half wait vs a five minute wait.
If 50,000 people all login at 11:45pm ET, which of the 50,000 are going to get put into the waiting room first? Those that the system can reconcile first of those that are coming through distant routers and servers?
And yeah, yeah, I've heard that it doesn't make a difference which, truthfully, it doesn't. That is, unless you're on the West Coast. >>
Sounds like you are advocating a stock like HFT system for accessing the Mint site. Maybe some forums members can put a business plan together and pitch this to Wall St.
I think of other posts wherein the real winners were to be those with the NGC First Day [whatever] coin. Who in their right mind cares, other than if he/she can make a profit at it?
In a previous post I had written than I had hoped this scenario would pan out and it would come to fisticuffs or whatever to end the madness of mint releases at coin shows, but just as with the previous posts, suckers are born every minute and no doubt there will be other artificial designations.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>The fault really lies with the incompetent US MINT and ANA Show managers.... remember how Jay Sherlock of the ANA ,here on this forum said everything was under control ,,that there would be no over night camping in line and on ...this Show fiasco is theirs
Still no posts about The ANA Show , auctions.... bourse action ......Shame on the ANA >>
Incompetent ANA Show managers, huh? I reject your criticism. Here's why:
We were assured by Rosemont police that there would be no overnight camping. On Monday night, we had a sizable storm that included lightning. The Rosemont police attempted to disperse the growing crowd, but most of them went across the street and waited in the rain. The police finally relented, citing public safety issues -- i.e. they didn't want anyone struck by lightning.
On Tuesday night, they DID disperse the crowd for several hours (this is documented in many other forum posts). Finally, the crowd became too large to disperse, so again the Rosemont police, acting in the interest of public safety, allowed people to camp out.
On Wednesday night, allowed camping once again because of what had happened the previous two nights.
It might surprise you to learn that sometimes things don't go exactly as planned. Sometimes, you have to make adjustments on the fly. The ANA said all along that our concern was public safety. The Mint set the terms of the sale, because it's the Mint's product. The ANA made sure the public remained safe. In that regard, I'm proud of the way our organization handled the public safety issues.
PS -- My name is Jake, not Jay. Next time you're lobbing criticism my way, the least you could do is get my name right.
Jake Sherlock, ANA staff member
Member, TEC
I wonder if the mint has addressed geographic distribution in their new ordering system.
Then there is the rest of the world... but that's even harder to do and potentially not cost effective right now to drop servers in foreign countries hoping to take foreign money away from foreign mint products via competition.
<< <i>Hats off to the US Mint for once again creating a feeding frenzy for one of their products. They are the reason we have a US Coin Forum. >>
I don't think that the US Mint created this "feeding frenzy" as much as Coin Forums and Coin Dealers did.
We have no idea exactly "what" coin dealers were doing outside of the coin forums but I know that I have been contacted by certain coin dealers to preorder for them at a profit to me. Those items were then submitted for grading and sold at a profit until the interest dried up.
Specifically, the 5 oz pucks had a lot of coin dealers jumping into the profit boat and the Buf's and the HOF coins simply allowed them to refine their tactics.
I mean, who in their right mind would not stand in line to order a coin if there was an immediate profit to be made of $50, $100, $500?
This was not the mints doing, it was our doing. We are the ones paying the big bucks for TPG labels, we are the ones saying that "I'm gonna order 5", "I'm going to the show to buy as many as I can to flip right away!" US.
The US Mint is simply offering a product which most folks "wanted". There was absolutely no mention of a 50th Anniversary Set by the US Mint in January of this year and very little mentioned of such a set on the coin forums late last year.
Once the mint made their announcement, the questions and hype began.
Once the US Mint announced that the coins would be available on release day at the ANA Show, the Hype went into overdrive.
Notice that the US Mint only made announcements on product availability. The certainly weren't "hyping" the coin.
That was our job.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Still no posts about The ANA Show , auctions.... bourse action ......Shame on the ANA >>
Can you put any blame on the ANA? I don't see how.
Big brother wants a booth, has an agenda not thought out, chaos ensues.
Should the ANA say, "Yo Mint, pack it up, you're stinking up the place and making a mockery of our show."? >>
The only error IMO that the US Mint did was in making the coins available on Release Day "at the Show".
The United States Mint traditionally attends the ANA Money Show along with about 15 or so other Mints from around the World.
I would not like to see that end.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I don't pity the buyer at 100k.... >>
Nor do I. Multi-billionaires to whom $100k is like $10 to me? They get no pity!
Ok, but that is kinda the entirety of the problem.
What they sold in Chicago was a drop in the bucket, therefore they did not need to be sell them there.
We obviously can't handle it. We turn into greedy demons. So please don't do this in the future.
My 2 cents.
<< <i>I don't pity the buyer at 100k - I think it just served to underscore the absolute ridiculous nature of the whole "First Strike" and label business. Let's see, an identical product with any manner of plastic slabbed around it gives the original object a special cache AND value? Insanity.
I think of other posts wherein the real winners were to be those with the NGC First Day [whatever] coin. Who in their right mind cares, other than if he/she can make a profit at it?
In a previous post I had written than I had hoped this scenario would pan out and it would come to fisticuffs or whatever to end the madness of mint releases at coin shows, but just as with the previous posts, suckers are born every minute and no doubt there will be other artificial designations. >>
Absolutely no doubt that the Coin Market has taken some serious high speed turns over that past 8 years.
I remember some posts about the King of Siam Set and the box these were originally delivered in. I also remember some posts about certain gold coins from over 100 years ago and the box that they came in.
All of a sudden, Original Mint Packaging became "the thing". "Certificates of Authenticity" took on the same value as a letter certifying that a particular coin was what it was purported to be.
Forget the coins..................buy the damned labels!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Is anyone concerned that the next show where the Mint sells coins that there will literally be gun battles and knife fights to be the first in line? The first guy is getting a 5 figure payout. Someone is going to end up dead...over coins. >>
Five figures? Six, if he'd held onto the coin 48 hours longer ...
<< <i>Is anyone concerned that the next show where the Mint sells coins that there will literally be gun battles and knife fights to be the first in line? The first guy is getting a 5 figure payout. Someone is going to end up dead...over coins. >>
I'd bet this sales format from the Mint is over. If they didn't learn their lesson this time I'd be very surprised. I saw some characters in line both Tuesday and Wednesday that were probably packing heat!!