<< <i>Gai exists and has a way better wax pack case than what psa or bbce uses. If you don't want to send to them, that's fine. But they authenticate. >>
Who told you that, Damien Werner over the phone?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Gai exists and has a way better wax pack case than what psa or bbce uses. If you don't want to send to them, that's fine. But they authenticate. >>
The general perception is that the items in early flips are good, but the items in later flips could be questionable. If I had to choose between GAI and BBCE wrap, I would choose the latter so that if I kick the bucket and my kids want to sell my stuff, they may not run into others with a similar perception.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
<< <i>This is the 2nd thread I've started tonight that's been hijacked. I was just posting info for others to know. Steve is a great guy and there's not one person on here that wouldn't try to capitalize on the same knowledge and experience he has. Maybe if some took the time to work as hard as he has to study and know things like this the conversation would be different. >>
Maybe you can answer the question that I posted earlier. I was looking for some "Info about BBCE wax wrapping". PSA offers a written monetary guarantee on everything they authenticate. Does BBCE offer any written guarantee when you pay for their authentication services?
Edit: Full disclosure. I am not insinuating anything, I am just curious.
So it is 5% to wrap a box, even if you bring it in and they do it there in a few minutes? Seems pricey.
Does anyone know if BBCE gives a monetary guarantee should a box they wrap get opened down the line and be found to have been resealed? How would that work?
Whoops, I see the same question was asked above; my bad. Also just curious as I never inquired about any guarantee the times I bought cheap 80's stuff for my bro and I to rip now and then. But those were all under a hundred bucks each so I'd think with the real expensive stuff they must have some kind of formal policy.
I guarantee we will be seeing in the near future fake graded boxes, its only a matter of time. Just think it someone were to buy empty 86' Fleer Basketball boxes from eBay, place in some 88 Tools baseball packs, seal and use fake wrapping and sell for $30,000, repeat ...... Someone is going to make a killing! In my opinion anyone buying one of these so called certified boxes are throwing away their $$$$, if you wann card buy you can see it, with just wrapping a wax box you have zero clue as to what actually lies within, save your money this is a scam!
Sorry for the misspellings in the above post, posted from my cell but you get the just of my post....anyone can buy empty boxes from eBay and packaging 88 Score if they so choose!! BUYER BEWARE!
I know when Manny (flatfoot) had a 80-81 baseketball tray that he had bought from Steve years ago and it was determined that it was not authentic, as Topps never produced 80-81 basketball trays, that Steve issued a full refund and told Manny to open the packs, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Sorry for the misspellings in the above post, posted from my cell but you get the just of my post....anyone can buy empty boxes from eBay and packaging 88 Score if they so choose!! BUYER BEWARE! >>
Or misunderstood 1/25 auto cards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The hobby is saturated with repackaged product, if I'm going to buy an unopened box of cards it's either coming directly from BBCE or going to be in their wrap.
Now, I understand that anybody can buy a box from BBCE, tamper with it and then repackage it with their label, so, because of this, I'd prefer to buy directly from BBCE, however, if they don't have what I'm looking for, and someone, lets say on eBay, does, then I'll pay a premium, so, I think, 5% is a fair price to charge for their services.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
Very well said Todd.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
So do we know if BBCE will reimburse a hypothetical collector who opens a wrapped $30,000 box and finds it to be resealed? How would BBCE know or trust that the owner did not stash away the good cards on his own or simply get a case of "openers remorse?" Seems like both the owner and BBCE have a quandary in this event?
On a related note, I guess the same applies to a slabbed pack that someone hypothetically opens and finds is resealed; how would the company know the opener is being honest in making a claim? They financially back cards that upon review in legit slabs are deemed to be mistakenly authenticated or graded, but I would imagine the same policy cannot be in effect for slabbed packs that have to be removed from the slab and opened for the owner to learn it's bad? Curious how this would work, never gave it thought before or recall reading about it, but def would be good for collectors to know. My bad if discussed earlier in thread; mad late here and am crashing out.
So lets get this straight. Just about every board member states they will only buy boxes that have been authenticated from BBCX. The boxes that achieve the highest priced sales are authenticated by BBCX.
In order to achieve the highest prices one must have their opinion and pay them for it.
There is nothing negative about pointing out that someone is making money on both sides. It is a fact.
There is nothing negative about pointing out that the higher the prices go the better off they are because you need their opinion.
When PSA authenticates an item they are not making a market in that item. BBCX is.
Buyers and sellers determine what the price of a good or service should be and not one company. When Microsoft was found to be a monopoly they couldn't just charge whatever they wanted for Windows and their other software. They just had a huge percentage of the market share and used it as clout. Had they tried to charge a price that was way out of line more choices would have come into the marketplace faster.
Under no circumstances am I saying they are solely responsible for the price of a wax box. People on these boards help determine that price. That being said if it requires their opinion for a box to achieve the highest price possible and they also sell boxes for profit it is clearly a monopoly.
Having a business model like they do is great as I said. How ethics comes into this discussion is beyond me. No one insinuated they were bad for their business practices. Stating facts is not dragging them in the mud. Just stating facts.
I have purchased items from BBCX and been extremely pleased with the service and quality and would do so again. I just am willing to call a spade a spade.
Let's not forget, we buy our stuff from them anyway. So how many does this really affect. Lastly, it's beginning to make sense to leave anything from BBCE, sealed, in the original shipping box. haha Just saying
1. I trust steve completely. He's always been more than fair to me, my family and even this board. Heck, he used to give everyone here 10% off the top regardless.Bbce is now the only one I'll buy any pre-1980 wax from. I've trusted him enough to spend five figures in a relatively short amount of time on wrapped boxes which I have no idea if there is anything in them except rocks. 2. 5% is more than reasonable when he could ask and get much more. Amd his basis is usually the low end which benefits us and not bbce. 3. Fraud is going to be a huge problem. Already seeing the signs. I think the next step should be a hologram with or without a serial number, a data base. The cost would be minimal in the high end boxes. 4. The only way to guarantee what people are wanting with the old cello wrapped and not buying a weighted empty box is if you buy a box of say 1971 bbce wax that it gets sent directly from the auction house to steve. Otherwise the chain of custody is suspect. 5. And Heaven Heaven forbid that anything happens to steve. But if something did I really don't know who I would trust for anything pre-80. Does the market go back to the old that arent from bbce? Although I'll probably be long gone before steve.
But the elephant in the room or the naked king that most are silent about is the relative ease it would be to replicate the old wrap with a sticker or gold business card. And maybe even the new wrapper. When ONE box is now in the five figures is it worth it to some to print up an entire roll of cellophane?
...oh, in other hobbies there are well documented cases of perfect counterfeit holograms, seals amd whatever cases or protective boxes/holders they come in. Let alone a cardboard box with a thin sheet of cellophane. And those hobbiests have long been worried. I'm worried.
Great points from everyone. It sounds like BBCE is moving into the next evolution of their business. Holograms and a database make sense and I'm sure are part of the BBCE long term plan.
BBCX clearly meets this description. They are the single supplier of vintage wax boxes of trading cards. The reason they meet this description is in order to get full retail value you must have their logo on it. Sure there are others like Fritsch but the amount of product they move is a fraction of what BBCX does and even some collectors would end up getting those boxes wrapped for potentially adding value.
Brand loyalty and exclusive contracts are two more factors that point to a monopoly. BBCX has tremendous brand loyalty and despite some missteps last year they haven't missed a beat. They also have exclusive contracts with PSA to grade their unopened material.
If you watched the video that was posted from the National the interviewer made it clear that if you wanted vintage wax there was only one source.
It only makes sense that as prices rise they make more money. If they put their stamp of approval on a $100 box they make $5. A $500 box $25 and a $1,000 box $50 and so on.
What puts them in the ultimate position is that if you take for example a 1980 Topps box. A non wrapped box may bring $670. A BBCX wrapped box brings $1,000. This spread is so wide that it only makes sense for those in the marketplace to pay the fee to BBCX to instantly make their box more valuable. Even if you put $50 on the $670 there is still $280 that one would be leaving on the table in this example which is huge and only a rational response to get them involved.
How many business's do you know of that can take inventory and say it is good and it is miraculously worth 47.7% more in the example above? I can't think of any.
The reason PSA doesn't sell cards is the idea is to be independent. Authenticating unopened and being the largest dealer in the segment is clearly a conflict of interest. It is one that most are willing to live with as it appears that Steve is the best at determining what is good product and consumers have spoken and are willing to pay for his opinion. Not all conflicts of interest are bad and acted upon. If he was simply putting his stamp of approval on boxes that are bad knowing that they won't ever be broken this is obviously a completely different story.
The fact that there brand caries so much weight and drastically changes the prices and liquidity for unopened is amazing and they are the dominant player for sure. It is ingenious to offer the service they do because they can make money and so can the client and unless you have that seal you won't get the same price.
Under no circumstances is this a shot at them. Once again it is just stating the facts.
<< <i>This is the 2nd thread I've started tonight that's been hijacked. I was just posting info for others to know. Steve is a great guy and there's not one person on here that wouldn't try to capitalize on the same knowledge and experience he has. Maybe if some took the time to work as hard as he has to study and know things like this the conversation would be different. >>
Morning Chris
I understand that your thread "evolved" and can be viewed as hijacked.
Your OP opens up 2 other questions that may "spin off" your Information post.
1. Is 5% fair? 2. How safe is that "shrink wrap?"
Everyone here knows that BBCEx is a good company. It's respected.
Those were legitimate questions IMO. So, for me, to extend the conversation, I wanted to show how easy it is to shrink wrap. Before I read a thread on this on another board, I had no idea how to shrink wrap something - i.e. how easy it was.
If you feel, my post was a hijack, E.g. I apologize.
Last, I didn't get the feel that anyone was bashing BBCEx or trying to hijack your OP - but rather extended questions beyond you public service announcement.
I've just finished reading the new posts that have "spun off" Chris' OP.
I believe I'm very fair and open minded.
I can't always read someone's "hidden" agenda.
But, I have to say.
If anyone questions whether 5% is fair (which BTW, I think appears fair), or whether someone can "tamper" with his shrink wrap, or happens to think about the legal ramifications of that shrink wrap procedure; i.e., is there any implied warrantee..etc...? We shouldn't automatically assume it's an attack on BBCEx? I hope not.
Then, again, I don't know people here like others and I'm sure they may be alluding to hidden agendas? Someone will have to PM/educate me. I'm speaking in general terms about questions dealing with the procedures/policies, as such, and not the reputation or integrity of the company.
<< <i>Great points from everyone. It sounds like BBCE is moving into the next evolution of their business. Holograms and a database make sense and I'm sure are part of the BBCE long term plan. >>
DPeck, You are not stating facts you are stating opinions. There have been plenty of auctions where unauthenticated vintage boxes set new records without having a BBCE seal of approval. Your statement that BBCE is the single supplier of vintage wax boxes is laughable and not even remotely close to factual. Additionally there is no abuse of dominant power in this case and none of the conditions for formation of a monopoly as defined in your link are met.
Any trusted authenticator in every collectibles market can dramatically increase the price of an item when they say it is good. Simply look at the art market, the value of authentication is far more than 50% for almost every item attributed to a major artist.
Is 5% fair? Last time I checked this was still Amerika. Fair has nothing to do with the price someone charges. Although he wasn't talking about sports cards, Reed from BBCE correctly explained how the market sets prices when he related this story from a trip to Philadelphia on Facebook.
"What was shocking was the price. A 10" cheesesteak, fries, and a regular soft drink cost $17! I guess if you have customers lining up 24 hours a day for your food, you can charge whatever you want.”
From the consumer demand that I see, 5% may be cheap! Steve is literally making it rain on you! For 5% he is putting at least that amount of money in your pocket by making your stuff more valuable. Don't complain, send in your boxes and enjoy the instant windfall. Amerika at its best!!!!
<< <i>DPeck, You are not stating facts you are stating opinions. There have been plenty of auctions where unauthenticated vintage boxes set new records without having a BBCE seal of approval. Your statement that BBCE is the single supplier of vintage wax boxes is laughable and not even remotely close to factual. Additionally there is no abuse of dominant power in this case and none of the conditions for formation of a monopoly as defined in your link are met.
Any trusted authenticator in every collectibles market can dramatically increase the price of an item when they say it is good. Simply look at the art market, the value of authentication is far more than 50% for almost every item attributed to a major artist.
Robb >>
There is no doubt that a trusted authenticator adds value. PSA's stamp of approval can add thousands of percent to the price of an item. That being said they don't grade their own material and sell it. BBCX puts their stamp of approval on it and instantly it is more valuable.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I have only purchased sealed products that didn't need anyone's approval to know they were good. I don't own any sealed material that caries their backing as the reason it is good.
This is a classic text book example of a case study that could be done in a higher level micro economics course showcasing monopoly power.
The barriers to entry are virtually impossible at this point as the market has been conditioned to believe in BBCX. Their buying power has been enhanced through years of successful business and their brand loyalty is at an all time high.
Not all monopolies use predatory pricing and since you can't create new units of supply out of thin air that doesn't apply here either.
There isn't an ounce of ill will towards this company as they would have to be considered a positive for the hobby.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board.
Fact is, there are collectors who don't only buy from BBCE, me included. The majority of my boxes are not authenticated by BBCE. As an unopened collector, I like to look at the packs from time to time for reference when purchasing other similar packs and for enjoyment. I've had some of my older wax boxes wrapped that is was primarily to maintain the condition of the box and not for the resale value. And I am not the only unopened collector who has the majority of their boxes not authenticated by BBCE.
Neither BBCE nor this board make the market. I love all these threads that say that, but it is just not true and any unopened collector who has followed the market for years will tell you that. Up until this year's National, I've always felt that BBCE was playing catch up to the market as you could see by guys buying stuff on their website and immediately flipping it. Do they contribute, or course. But there are plenty of unopened collectors outside this board and to think otherwise is plain wrong.
BBCE does not have a monoply on vintage unopened whichever definition of that you'd like to use to define vintage. They are the leader in the vintage unopened market, but they do not have a monopoly. AT&T was a monopoly, Standard Oil was a monopoly, as they were the only game in town. If I want to buy an unopened box, I have a lot more choices than BBCE. In fact, there were other dealers at the National selling unopened boxes and packs with some of the prices the same or higher than BBCE.
Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO. >>
I agree Mike.
Ya know - on the monopoly thing? I was also thinking of the American Tobacco Company in the early 1900s. I did a lot of research on the company as part of collecting some cigarette packs.
I would second Mike's statement in that most of my vintage unopened wax, rack and cello boxes are not wrapped by BBCE. I also agree that there is a definite premium should a collector want to resell a box due to the confidence in their brand, but I also see very strong prices in this market for non BBCE products, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO. >>
I agree Mike.
Ya know - on the monopoly thing? I was also thinking of the American Tobacco Company in the early 1900s. I did a lot of research on the company as part of collecting some cigarette packs. >>
Morning Mike.
When I started college I was pursuing a minor in history. I could talk about historical events for hours. Don't get me going.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
When I was buying from Steve last year, he didn't authenticate other people's boxes. He simply sold his boxes and cases and they came wrapped. It's people like me that asked him if he wouldn't mind reviewing a box and wrapping it up in his seal of approval if it deemed worthy and I'd pay him for that service. Because I've been a good customer of his, he did this for me...and so on and so on. There were probably a couple other people that were asking him around the same time...people like us opened this added business for him, and it's spawned into another revenue line for BBCE. It was getting to be so time consuming that he decided to charge 5% per box which in my opinion is an incredibly fair price.
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
I really hope this is not a serious statement. >>
It may have been an insinuation. But, then again, it could be satire. Its probably not conjecture! >>
Are you sure you are not an English professor? >>
He's a cryptic Confucious these days, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So last I checked there were two seals of approval at this time that cary weight in the hobby.
BBCX and PSA. Steve grades the packs for PSA so essentially there is one.
I am sure if we looked closely that we could find a multitide of vintage product that where the BBCX seal of approval adds at least 25% or more on average.
With this being the case the 5% spent yields a tremendous rate of return. What is stopping them from moving this up to 6%, or 7% and so on. Nothing. A rational person would still pay the higher price becuase all it is doing is cutting into their spread.
Can someone help with this question below-- just perused their site and didn't see anything relevant to it (but rushing out for day of work so maybe missed it)... Maybe will try and ring them to ask time permitting later today, if nobody knows offhand...
"Do we know if BBCE will reimburse a hypothetical collector who opens a wrapped $30,000 box and finds it to be resealed? How would BBCE know or trust that the owner did not stash away the good cards on his own or simply get a case of "openers remorse?" Seems like both the owner and BBCE have a quandary in this event? Honest mistakes do get made in authentication."
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb.
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb. >>
You don't know the market as you said. I'd also avoid using the word "dumb". The only people that are dumb are the ones that use it.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Whatever it is... its making a lot of people a lot of money. Be happy with your profits. This is a great first world problem we are discussing today! Wonder what the rest of the world thinks of our dilemma today!
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2: exclusive possession or control 3: a commodity controlled by one party 4: one that has a monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb. >>
You don't know the market as you said. I'd also avoid using the word "dumb". The only people that are dumb are the ones that use it. >>
I guess I am dumb then. Starting a card grading company in this environment would be just that. Dumb. If you look at the trends in market share no one would be willing to try and take on PSA at this point. If they did it would be a losing proposition and any business advisor could easily see this. BGS has lost 35% or more of market share. Not a nice trend.
Most that send in cards are looking for the most bang for their buck. PSA offers this just like BBCX does on the unopened side.
Comments
<< <i>Gai exists and has a way better wax pack case than what psa or bbce uses. If you don't want to send to them, that's fine. But they authenticate. >>
Who told you that, Damien Werner over the phone?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Gai exists and has a way better wax pack case than what psa or bbce uses. If you don't want to send to them, that's fine. But they authenticate. >>
The general perception is that the items in early flips are good, but the items in later flips could be questionable. If I had to choose between GAI and BBCE wrap, I would choose the latter so that if I kick the bucket and my kids want to sell my stuff, they may not run into others with a similar perception.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Dpeck, good point.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
+1 great post
<< <i>This is the 2nd thread I've started tonight that's been hijacked. I was just posting info for others to know. Steve is a great guy and there's not one person on here that wouldn't try to capitalize on the same knowledge and experience he has. Maybe if some took the time to work as hard as he has to study and know things like this the conversation would be different. >>
Maybe you can answer the question that I posted earlier. I was looking for some "Info about BBCE wax wrapping". PSA offers a written monetary guarantee on everything they authenticate. Does BBCE offer any written guarantee when you pay for their authentication services?
Edit: Full disclosure. I am not insinuating anything, I am just curious.
Does anyone know if BBCE gives a monetary guarantee should a box they wrap get opened down the line and be found to have been resealed? How would that work?
Whoops, I see the same question was asked above; my bad. Also just curious as I never inquired about any guarantee the times I bought cheap 80's stuff for my bro and I to rip now and then. But those were all under a hundred bucks each so I'd think with the real expensive stuff they must have some kind of formal policy.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Sorry for the misspellings in the above post, posted from my cell but you get the just of my post....anyone can buy empty boxes from eBay and packaging 88 Score if they so choose!! BUYER BEWARE! >>
Or misunderstood 1/25 auto cards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Anybody can shrink-wrap a box.
The hobby is saturated with repackaged product, if I'm going to buy an unopened box of cards it's either coming directly from BBCE or going to be in their wrap.
Now, I understand that anybody can buy a box from BBCE, tamper with it and then repackage it with their label, so, because of this, I'd prefer to buy directly from BBCE, however, if they don't have what I'm looking for, and someone, lets say on eBay, does, then I'll pay a premium, so, I think, 5% is a fair price to charge for their services.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Dpeck, good point.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
Very well said Todd.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
On a related note, I guess the same applies to a slabbed pack that someone hypothetically opens and finds is resealed; how would the company know the opener is being honest in making a claim? They financially back cards that upon review in legit slabs are deemed to be mistakenly authenticated or graded, but I would imagine the same policy cannot be in effect for slabbed packs that have to be removed from the slab and opened for the owner to learn it's bad? Curious how this would work, never gave it thought before or recall reading about it, but def would be good for collectors to know. My bad if discussed earlier in thread; mad late here and am crashing out.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
In order to achieve the highest prices one must have their opinion and pay them for it.
There is nothing negative about pointing out that someone is making money on both sides. It is a fact.
There is nothing negative about pointing out that the higher the prices go the better off they are because you need their opinion.
When PSA authenticates an item they are not making a market in that item. BBCX is.
Buyers and sellers determine what the price of a good or service should be and not one company. When Microsoft was found to be a monopoly they couldn't just charge whatever they wanted for Windows and their other software. They just had a huge percentage of the market share and used it as clout. Had they tried to charge a price that was way out of line more choices would have come into the marketplace faster.
Under no circumstances am I saying they are solely responsible for the price of a wax box. People on these boards help determine that price. That being said if it requires their opinion for a box to achieve the highest price possible and they also sell boxes for profit it is clearly a monopoly.
Having a business model like they do is great as I said. How ethics comes into this discussion is beyond me. No one insinuated they were bad for their business practices. Stating facts is not dragging them in the mud. Just stating facts.
I have purchased items from BBCX and been extremely pleased with the service and quality and would do so again. I just am willing to call a spade a spade.
1. I trust steve completely. He's always been more than fair to me, my family and even this board. Heck, he used to give everyone here 10% off the top regardless.Bbce is now the only one I'll buy any pre-1980 wax from. I've trusted him enough to spend five figures in a relatively short amount of time on wrapped boxes which I have no idea if there is anything in them except rocks.
2. 5% is more than reasonable when he could ask and get much more. Amd his basis is usually the low end which benefits us and not bbce.
3. Fraud is going to be a huge problem. Already seeing the signs. I think the next step should be a hologram with or without a serial number, a data base. The cost would be minimal in the high end boxes.
4. The only way to guarantee what people are wanting with the old cello wrapped and not buying a weighted empty box is if you buy a box of say 1971 bbce wax that it gets sent directly from the auction house to steve. Otherwise the chain of custody is suspect.
5. And Heaven Heaven forbid that anything happens to steve. But if something did I really don't know who I would trust for anything pre-80. Does the market go back to the old that arent from bbce? Although I'll probably be long gone before steve.
But the elephant in the room or the naked king that most are silent about is the relative ease it would be to replicate the old wrap with a sticker or gold business card. And maybe even the new wrapper. When ONE box is now in the five figures is it worth it to some to print up an entire roll of cellophane?
...oh, in other hobbies there are well documented cases of perfect counterfeit holograms, seals amd whatever cases or protective boxes/holders they come in. Let alone a cardboard box with a thin sheet of cellophane. And those hobbiests have long been worried. I'm worried.
BBCX clearly meets this description. They are the single supplier of vintage wax boxes of trading cards. The reason they meet this description is in order to get full retail value you must have their logo on it. Sure there are others like Fritsch but the amount of product they move is a fraction of what BBCX does and even some collectors would end up getting those boxes wrapped for potentially adding value.
Brand loyalty and exclusive contracts are two more factors that point to a monopoly. BBCX has tremendous brand loyalty and despite some missteps last year they haven't missed a beat. They also have exclusive contracts with PSA to grade their unopened material.
If you watched the video that was posted from the National the interviewer made it clear that if you wanted vintage wax there was only one source.
It only makes sense that as prices rise they make more money. If they put their stamp of approval on a $100 box they make $5. A $500 box $25 and a $1,000 box $50 and so on.
What puts them in the ultimate position is that if you take for example a 1980 Topps box. A non wrapped box may bring $670. A BBCX wrapped box brings $1,000. This spread is so wide that it only makes sense for those in the marketplace to pay the fee to BBCX to instantly make their box more valuable. Even if you put $50 on the $670 there is still $280 that one would be leaving on the table in this example which is huge and only a rational response to get them involved.
How many business's do you know of that can take inventory and say it is good and it is miraculously worth 47.7% more in the example above? I can't think of any.
The reason PSA doesn't sell cards is the idea is to be independent. Authenticating unopened and being the largest dealer in the segment is clearly a conflict of interest. It is one that most are willing to live with as it appears that Steve is the best at determining what is good product and consumers have spoken and are willing to pay for his opinion. Not all conflicts of interest are bad and acted upon. If he was simply putting his stamp of approval on boxes that are bad knowing that they won't ever be broken this is obviously a completely different story.
The fact that there brand caries so much weight and drastically changes the prices and liquidity for unopened is amazing and they are the dominant player for sure. It is ingenious to offer the service they do because they can make money and so can the client and unless you have that seal you won't get the same price.
Under no circumstances is this a shot at them. Once again it is just stating the facts.
<< <i>This is the 2nd thread I've started tonight that's been hijacked. I was just posting info for others to know. Steve is a great guy and there's not one person on here that wouldn't try to capitalize on the same knowledge and experience he has. Maybe if some took the time to work as hard as he has to study and know things like this the conversation would be different. >>
Morning Chris
I understand that your thread "evolved" and can be viewed as hijacked.
Your OP opens up 2 other questions that may "spin off" your Information post.
1. Is 5% fair? 2. How safe is that "shrink wrap?"
Everyone here knows that BBCEx is a good company. It's respected.
Those were legitimate questions IMO. So, for me, to extend the conversation, I wanted to show how easy it is to shrink wrap. Before I read a thread on this on another board, I had no idea how to shrink wrap something - i.e. how easy it was.
If you feel, my post was a hijack, E.g. I apologize.
Last, I didn't get the feel that anyone was bashing BBCEx or trying to hijack your OP - but rather extended questions beyond you public service announcement.
I believe I'm very fair and open minded.
I can't always read someone's "hidden" agenda.
But, I have to say.
If anyone questions whether 5% is fair (which BTW, I think appears fair), or whether someone can "tamper" with his shrink wrap, or happens to think about the legal ramifications of that shrink wrap procedure; i.e., is there any implied warrantee..etc...? We shouldn't automatically assume it's an attack on BBCEx? I hope not.
Then, again, I don't know people here like others and I'm sure they may be alluding to hidden agendas? Someone will have to PM/educate me. I'm speaking in general terms about questions dealing with the procedures/policies, as such, and not the reputation or integrity of the company.
<< <i>Great points from everyone. It sounds like BBCE is moving into the next evolution of their business. Holograms and a database make sense and I'm sure are part of the BBCE long term plan. >>
I was going to bring this up.
I totally agree.
You are not stating facts you are stating opinions. There have been plenty of auctions where unauthenticated vintage boxes set new records without having a BBCE seal of approval. Your statement that BBCE is the single supplier of vintage wax boxes is laughable and not even remotely close to factual.
Additionally there is no abuse of dominant power in this case and none of the conditions for formation of a monopoly as defined in your link are met.
Any trusted authenticator in every collectibles market can dramatically increase the price of an item when they say it is good. Simply look at the art market, the value of authentication is far more than 50% for almost every item attributed to a major artist.
Robb
"What was shocking was the price. A 10" cheesesteak, fries, and a regular soft drink cost $17! I guess if you have customers lining up 24 hours a day for your food, you can charge whatever you want.”
From the consumer demand that I see, 5% may be cheap! Steve is literally making it rain on you! For 5% he is putting at least that amount of money in your pocket by making your stuff more valuable. Don't complain, send in your boxes and enjoy the instant windfall. Amerika at its best!!!!
<< <i>DPeck,
You are not stating facts you are stating opinions. There have been plenty of auctions where unauthenticated vintage boxes set new records without having a BBCE seal of approval. Your statement that BBCE is the single supplier of vintage wax boxes is laughable and not even remotely close to factual.
Additionally there is no abuse of dominant power in this case and none of the conditions for formation of a monopoly as defined in your link are met.
Any trusted authenticator in every collectibles market can dramatically increase the price of an item when they say it is good. Simply look at the art market, the value of authentication is far more than 50% for almost every item attributed to a major artist.
Robb >>
There is no doubt that a trusted authenticator adds value. PSA's stamp of approval can add thousands of percent to the price of an item. That being said they don't grade their own material and sell it. BBCX puts their stamp of approval on it and instantly it is more valuable.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I have only purchased sealed products that didn't need anyone's approval to know they were good. I don't own any sealed material that caries their backing as the reason it is good.
This is a classic text book example of a case study that could be done in a higher level micro economics course showcasing monopoly power.
The barriers to entry are virtually impossible at this point as the market has been conditioned to believe in BBCX. Their buying power has been enhanced through years of successful business and their brand loyalty is at an all time high.
Not all monopolies use predatory pricing and since you can't create new units of supply out of thin air that doesn't apply here either.
There isn't an ounce of ill will towards this company as they would have to be considered a positive for the hobby.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Dpeck, good point.
Wasnt there an issue with him/PSA authenticating wax packs and selling them? Which he then backed out and put an end to the conflict of interest? Or I can be way off. Long day today. >>
I am not really sure.
A conflict of interest like this doesn't really bother me because it has no impact on me. If it did I might feel differently.
The bottom line though is this is a monopoly plain and simple. >>
Do you know what a monopoly is? Steve and BBCE do not have a monopoly on authentication. Consumers like us can have anyone we like authenticate stuff. And any one of us can open a pack authenticating business. A monopoly is when there are barriers created which do not allow anyone to enter the business.
BBCE has a very tight control of the market, similar to PSA. But there are no laws that exist which say I cannot authenticate packs.
What Steve has he has earned with his hard work, integrity and expertise. That's how you get to the place he's in in the market.
They are not totally controlling the price of unopened product either. I can sell a 1976 T box for 15 k if I had a buyer. But his reputation for knowing unopened product and strong integrity and ethics have created their place in the market. It's circumstances that have occurred because these guys do it right and do it better than anyone. They're not thumping their chest and telling everyone that if they don't clear it, it's no good or that everyone else selling unopened is a fraud. The business has come to him, and rightfully so.
As far as his prices for wrapping in cellophane and sealing it, he could be charging much much more. Most collectors of unopened know that unless it's BBCE authenticated or sold by BBCE it will not get market value. In fact most sellers and auction houses put "BBCE authenticated" in their titles. Steve knows this. The value of their stamp of approval is worth so much more than what they charge, it's ridiculous.
I'd love to see 2 eBay listings run concurrently: a 1986 Fleer basketball box not authenticated or wrapped by BBCE and one that is. I'd be willing to bet that the difference in price blows away that $ 1400 price tag.
I find it comical that this thread has turned into negative insinuations about BBCE's prices and way of doing business. Steve's the last one anyone should be worrying about. >>
You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board.
"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
Sheldon would not "get" this Curt.
Neither BBCE nor this board make the market. I love all these threads that say that, but it is just not true and any unopened collector who has followed the market for years will tell you that. Up until this year's National, I've always felt that BBCE was playing catch up to the market as you could see by guys buying stuff on their website and immediately flipping it. Do they contribute, or course. But there are plenty of unopened collectors outside this board and to think otherwise is plain wrong.
BBCE does not have a monoply on vintage unopened whichever definition of that you'd like to use to define vintage. They are the leader in the vintage unopened market, but they do not have a monopoly. AT&T was a monopoly, Standard Oil was a monopoly, as they were the only game in town. If I want to buy an unopened box, I have a lot more choices than BBCE. In fact, there were other dealers at the National selling unopened boxes and packs with some of the prices the same or higher than BBCE.
Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO. >>
I agree Mike.
Ya know - on the monopoly thing? I was also thinking of the American Tobacco Company in the early 1900s. I did a lot of research on the company as part of collecting some cigarette packs.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Not as black and white as some would like to make it. JMHO. >>
I agree Mike.
Ya know - on the monopoly thing? I was also thinking of the American Tobacco Company in the early 1900s. I did a lot of research on the company as part of collecting some cigarette packs. >>
Morning Mike.
When I started college I was pursuing a minor in history. I could talk about historical events for hours. Don't get me going.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
I really hope this is not a serious statement.
<< <i>
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
I really hope this is not a serious statement. >>
It may have been an insinuation. But, then again, it could be satire. Its probably not conjecture!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
I really hope this is not a serious statement. >>
It may have been an insinuation. But, then again, it could be satire. Its probably not conjecture!
Are you sure you are not an English professor?
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
When I was buying from Steve last year, he didn't authenticate other people's boxes. He simply sold his boxes and cases and they came wrapped. It's people like me that asked him if he wouldn't mind reviewing a box and wrapping it up in his seal of approval if it deemed worthy and I'd pay him for that service. Because I've been a good customer of his, he did this for me...and so on and so on. There were probably a couple other people that were asking him around the same time...people like us opened this added business for him, and it's spawned into another revenue line for BBCE. It was getting to be so time consuming that he decided to charge 5% per box which in my opinion is an incredibly fair price.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You're right. Questioning any practice of BBCX should be off limits on this board. >>
I really hope this is not a serious statement. >>
It may have been an insinuation. But, then again, it could be satire. Its probably not conjecture!
Are you sure you are not an English professor?
He's a cryptic Confucious these days, LOL!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BBCX and PSA. Steve grades the packs for PSA so essentially there is one.
I am sure if we looked closely that we could find a multitide of vintage product that where the BBCX seal of approval adds at least 25% or more on average.
With this being the case the 5% spent yields a tremendous rate of return. What is stopping them from moving this up to 6%, or 7% and so on. Nothing. A rational person would still pay the higher price becuase all it is doing is cutting into their spread.
This is monoply power at it's finest.
"Do we know if BBCE will reimburse a hypothetical collector who opens a wrapped $30,000 box and finds it to be resealed? How would BBCE know or trust that the owner did not stash away the good cards on his own or simply get a case of "openers remorse?" Seems like both the owner and BBCE have a quandary in this event? Honest mistakes do get made in authentication."
Instagram: mattyc_collection
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Full Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Full Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Full Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb.
<< <i>It is an ecomonics concept. >>
No its not, its a game!
<< <i>Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb. >>
Offer quick turn times, you could easily steal a life-sustainable share of that market.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Full Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb. >>
You don't know the market as you said. I'd also avoid using the word "dumb". The only people that are dumb are the ones that use it.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is an ecomonics concept. >>
No its not, its a game!
Snuffy,
I thought you'd be a bit more creative, and have BBG through the "O" in monopoly
Jeremy
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Full Definition of MONOPOLY
1: exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2: exclusive possession or control
3: a commodity controlled by one party
4: one that has a monopoly
Here is the link in case anyone needs it.
Definition of Monopoly
No official definition of monopoly power. I guess it means whatever you want it to mean. >>
A page or so back I posted the definition of monoply power. They have it. >>
Not Webster's. It is an ecomonics concept. I can make up an economics concept too and have it published.
Monopoly power
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A pure monopoly is defined as a single supplier. While there only a few cases of pure monopoly, monopoly ‘power’ is much more widespread, and can exist even when there is more than one supplier – such in markets with only two firms, called a duopoly, and a few firms, an oligopoly.
According to the 1998 Competition Act, abuse of dominant power means that a firm can 'behave independently of competitive pressures'. See Competition Act.
For the purpose of controlling mergers, the UK regulators consider that if two firms combine to create a market share of 25% or more of a specific market, the merger may be ‘referred’ to the Competition Commission, and may be prohibited."
You could make an argument about BBCE and PSA having monopoly power over authentication, but not the unopened market in general. Heck, I could start authenticating rack packs and boxes if I wanted and I bet I could get people to pay me to do it. No barriers to entry and easy start up. >>
The barriers to entry are huge. Their brand loyalty is the ultimate issue.
Try starting an authentication company now that PSA has 90% market share. No one that I know of is that dumb. >>
You don't know the market as you said. I'd also avoid using the word "dumb". The only people that are dumb are the ones that use it. >>
I guess I am dumb then. Starting a card grading company in this environment would be just that. Dumb. If you look at the trends in market share no one would be willing to try and take on PSA at this point. If they did it would be a losing proposition and any business advisor could easily see this. BGS has lost 35% or more of market share. Not a nice trend.
Most that send in cards are looking for the most bang for their buck. PSA offers this just like BBCX does on the unopened side.
James