CNG Lissner results
marvinf
Posts: 47 ✭✭
Anyone who was at the CNG Lissner auction know the hammer for the following lots:
367 - France 20 Gold Francs 1815 proof65
1134 - Cochin China Piastre 1879 proof66
1333 - Santiago Peso MS65
2119 - Peru 8E 1837 MS66
Thanks.
367 - France 20 Gold Francs 1815 proof65
1134 - Cochin China Piastre 1879 proof66
1333 - Santiago Peso MS65
2119 - Peru 8E 1837 MS66
Thanks.
0
Comments
1134-$90,000
1333-$17,000
2119-$35,000
<< <i>367-$55,000
1134-$90,000
1333-$17,000
2119-$35,000 >>
Thanks for the information. I may have gotten one of the last two. I never imagined such strong prices. Of course, all these are outstanding coins.
A dream coin. Crete 5 drachmai, 1901, NGC MS64, finest known. Three choice unc examples sold in public auctions in the last 15 years. Congrats to the new buyer.
Lissner had purchased it from Louis Teller in 1984.
Lot 147. Estimate $10K, realized $27500 hammer.. I believe that the commissions in this auction were 21% on the realized prices.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
Nice coin, yet quite common, and with juice, way beyond any current or historical trends. The power of pedigree and marketing!
<< <i>Strong results! (great marketing too, the catalogue alone cost me $100)
A dream coin. Crete 5 drachmai, 1901, NGC MS64, finest known. Three choice unc examples sold in public auctions in the last 15 years. Congrats to the new buyer.
Lissner had purchased it from Louis Teller in 1984.
Lot 147. Estimate $10K, realized $27500 hammer.. I believe that the commissions in this auction were 21% on the realized prices.
I am pretty sure I know the new owner and will see it in hand this week
Larry
1820 Peso
<< <i>My successful Lissner purchase (click on the picture for enlargement):
1820 Peso >>
Holy cow, that's nice.
<< <i>
<< <i>My successful Lissner purchase (click on the picture for enlargement):
1820 Peso >>
Holy cow, that's nice. >>
I was interested in some of the European items, but the prices were too strong, and since I would not take them to my grave (i.e., they would be sold at some point), I didn't want to mortgage the house. I think the price for what is apparently the finest graded of the whole type, and beyond the plastic a beautiful coin, is not out of proportion if held for a reasonable time in my opinion. The Coquimbo peso was way over my head, but apparently two people at least wanted it very much ($90,000 hammer - $110,000 total).
I think I won two cheapo (but rare) lots.
<< <i>Congratulations on the 1820 Peso. Very nice coin!
I think I won two cheapo (but rare) lots. >>
I think all of the coins in this auction are worthwhile. He didn't seem to buy junk.
!936 Lithuanian 10 Litu NGC64. A nice addition to a growing collection.
First purchase I have been able to make in a while so I feel great about it.
<< <i>Super coins there. Congrats! >>
I would have liked to buy the Peru 1837 8 Escudos gold coin. What a bombshell! And also the 1879 Cochinchina Piastre, gorgeous and rare.
Peru 8 Escudos 1837
1879 Cochinchina
I wonder in 20 years what those will bring?
Coin I bought- 1820 Chile Peso
A great sale and catalog.
Mexico 1823 Eight Escudos Hookneck
<< <i>I would have liked this one, but there is too much to buy at the moment.
Mexico 1823 Eight Escudos Hookneck >>
Oh yeah, a hook neck gold! Just a fantastic coin - at $60,000 including commission, worth it? To at least two people I guess it was.
I wonder just when these sky high buyers' commission rates will have a negative impact on prices? At 21% (+ 2.5% for internet bids), how much higher can it go without impacting prices?
I'm guessing that the auction houses are so competitive for sellers these days that they're giving up most of the sellers' commissions so they have to raise them for the buyers. It's 180 deg. about face from what it used to be when there were no buyers' commissions, just sellers' commissions.
<< <i>I think that the 21% BP was a result of 3 auction houses marketing this all needing a cut. >>
I would agree with you, but I also note that several regular houses are asking 18% buyers now. Once everyone sees that you can have a 100% sell rate with 21% BP, can it be that long until others jump on up?
But in this case, it did appear that there were too many selling dealers with their hand in the pie.
<< <i>For high-end rarities and pop tops, I don't think the BP matters so much. People who want those coins (myself included) will almost pay what it takes for the opportunity. But for more pedestrian coins (see the bulk lots in this sale for instance), I think the 21% was a detriment.
But in this case, it did appear that there were too many selling dealers with their hand in the pie. >>
Do you remember the "apostrophe" auctions (Auction '79, '80, ect.) which were a joint sale by Stacks, RareCoa, Paramount and Superior? Again there was no buyers' commission. They were very successful in selling high end coins.
Today, I personally know that several of the "big" companies will sell your coins for zero seller's commission depending on, of course, the value of the consignment. So they have to make it up somehow. I'm guessing that the Lissner family paid zero seller's commission. But yes, I have to agree that in that circumstance, there would have to be a hefty buyer's commission. My feeling was, when will one have the shot at these types of coins again? And they'll probably be more the next time they appear.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>The seller pays both the buyer and sellers commissions. Don't we all adjust our bids to factor in the juice? >>
That's the way I see it.
out the window the juice is not a concern.
Superb 8 escudos, I can't wait to hear MrEureka's report on the auction and some lots, if he ever finds a minute, and considering how much work he has.
<< <i>D:
I am pretty sure I know the new owner and will see it in hand this week
Larry
>>
L: I see that you enjoy twisting the knife in my heart.
I'm actually very happy for the new owner. Since it couldn't be me, I think that the coin went to the person who deserved it the most.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>I assumed that the 21% was a compromise between the two US auction houses and the one UK auction house. European auctioneers are used to much higher commissions. Is it true that internet live bidders were charged with an additional 2%?
Superb 8 escudos, I can't wait to hear MrEureka's report on the auction and some lots, if he ever finds a minute, and considering how much work he has.
I'm actually very happy for the new owner. Since it couldn't be me, I think that the coin went to the person who deserved it the most.
Per the catalog: "2.5% additional fee on all live internet bids."
of the total to pay by credit card. It did show an internet fee of 0.00
edit to add:
There were no bids on my lot at floor auction. My online bid was the final price.
First and foremost, this was one of the most impressive collections I've seen sold at auction. Clearly, Lissner was an extremely patient, skilled and knowledgeable collector.
I think the extremely strong prices realized across the board were due to two primary forces.
First, the most knowledgeable and aggressive buyers understood the magnitude of the opportunity, and they were not going to let their perception of market value stop them from buying "the right coins - coins that were, from their own personal collecting perspective, worth substantially more than "market value". (For example, I bought one piece for my collection for 40% more than I thought it should bring, because it was worth even more to me, and because I considered it a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.) In the long run, most of the "runaway" coins bought by such buyers will prove bargains in retrospect.
Second, the less knowledgeable but equally aggressive buyers recognized the same opportunity, jumped on the bandwagon, and fought for many of the "wrong" coins. As a result, many replaceable coins brought prices that will seem too high in hindsight.
As for the 21% buyer's fee, I don't think it made much of a difference, because most bidders are smart enough to adjust their bids accordingly.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Further more, those who paid high prices in Lissner collection , probably they need the coins for themselves, for their collection. So , we will not see them at least for 20 years, so we cant know if the coins were bought cheap of expensive.
In my opinion 'market value' in many of lissner coins, simply doesnt exist because there is no market value.100 fracs 1864 ms66 (435) . british east africa mombasa rupee ms67 (132), andorra 10c 1873 ms66rb (2). What is the market value of these coins???? and many many more.......
And let me tell you something else. . . In Greece we were discussing, all the greek collectors berofe the auction about the 5 drx 1901 Crete. 6 persons we all had six different market prices for the coin all none of us was correct about the 27500usd which finally closed. By the way, congatulations to the new owner. Monster Piece.
In my opinion , it was a great opportunity to buy good coins that i know i will hardy able to see them again to be auctioned. Now , if i bought them cheap of expensive, i will discover it in 30 years.......The only i know is that the coins are in great condition and many of them unimprovable.
That's the kind of report I was expecting, thanks for this very valuable view Andy. And congrats on your purchase, shame that you suck in photography.
As for you my dear vasker, I've sent you a VERY LONG email,to translate Andy's thoughts, as always expressed with remarkable economy of words. I hope that you'll read it and that you'll get it.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>Congratulations on the 1820 Peso. Very nice coin!
I think I won two cheapo (but rare) lots. >>
It's interesting that I found the Lissner 1820 Chile Peso that I bought also appeared in the Bowers&Ruddy Springfield Sale Part II from 1981. The Springfield coins were from the Springfield Library and Museum Association. In that sale, they graded it "EF-AU." Estimated at $350, it went for $1000. I bought a 1696 William III Crown in 1999 that had also come out of the Springfield sale where it too was graded EF-AU, and it is now in a PCGS MS64 slab. It is definitely a mint state coin, and a beautiful one at that, with loads of luster.
The 1820 Peso I just bought shows some striking weakness on some of the clouds over the volcano and the William III crown shows also some weakness on his hair, so I'm assuming that Bowers and Ruddy felt they had to grade on the very conservative side such that any weakness was attributed to wear rather than strike weakness.
Doing some research on the volcano Peso series, it's obvious that there are very, very few mint state coins graded, and not all that many circulated coins listed either. Obviously, the Coquimbo coins are in a class by themselves. It's a new series for me as I have been primarily a Great Britain and Russia collector with only a few new world coins, mostly from Mexico. I hadn't realized how many beautiful designs there are in the former Spanish colonies as they struggled to become independent. Even if I only bought one coin, I've learned a lot just from going through the catalog.
7 years later.
Nice coin! Congrats, I was an underbidder.
Latin American Collection
Nice coin! Did you see it in hand before bidding? Tricky to buy based just on the slab and the pics. There's a very substantial price difference between what I would call a "really nice 64 in a 65 holder" and a "really nice and solid 65 in a 65 holder".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka I did see this coin in hand back in 2014.
@MrEureka, I have a ms64. It is not a match to the Lissner specimen.
I believe you, although your 64 looks awfully nice in the pics. If you decide to let it go, I'd be interested!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have seen that 64, I think its better
Biased comment
Happy Thanksgiving!
Still think the other one is superior.
Happy thanksgiving to you sir !!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.