A rainbow-toned Peace dollar

Sunnywood

Anyone who has collected colorfully toned silver dollars finds out sooner or later that Peace dollars just don't come like Morgan dollars. (Even 1921 Morgans are different from prior Morgans in terms of rainbow bag toning). There were differences in alloy, planchet preparation, burlap Mint bags, and the history of storage in bank vaults.

No less than David Hall himself has written the following:

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

-- David Hall, PCGS Coin Facts, in his comments on the 1921 High Relief Peace dollar

However, there are small numbers of Peace dollars, especially in the earlier 1922-1923 dates, which turn up with very legitimate looking rainbow toning from time to time. There are a number of reasons why I believe the toning on the following coin to be natural and legitimate. Without going into excruciating detail about the toning, I will mention that this coin is also interesting from the standpoint of color mapping (using the Sunnywood Color Chart to map out the progression of toning colors resulting from thin-film interference from the toning layer). The lighter gold in the central to right areas is 2nd cycle gold (I-J on the color chart), while the deeper color in the left field is 3rd cycle color (S on the chart). There appears to be an abrupt boundariless transition from 2nd-cycle "J" to 3rd-cycle "S" gold, but in reality there is a thin boundary band in which the color rapidly (and correctly) transitions through the intermediate colors. Anyway it is an interesting coin for comparing J to S, also thin bands of R and V greens, as well as N and U blues ... so an interesting coin for the advanced color student.

This is a 1923-D PCGS MS66 CAC ... I believe it to be one of the finest toned Peace dollars in existence.



Best,
Sunnywood

Unknown

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AMRC

NT, it happens. David Hall is speaking in general terms, which in fact is very good advice in this area.

coinsarefun

One of the nicest toned Peace dollar I have seen.......would absolutely love to see Phil's trueview of this beauty!

CoinJunkie

That coin does nothing for me on an aesthetic level. For whatever reason, I generally prefer the "snow white"
look with this series.

magikbilly

I always thought these bags were heavy cotton duck of high strength but second quality visually - they were factually burlap/jute? Or Hessian? That is a bit stronger, no? Or are they all the same? Would such a cheap open weave fabric as burlap even be strong enough for 1000 dollar coins? I know the hessian bags for tobacco and other things hold several hundred pounds, but wouldn't we use a native product for coin shipment instead of something imported?

Thank you.

Eric

coinguy1989

I love the coin in the OP, and would love to buy it some day. Here is an example of my own that is rainbow toned, and is CAC approved:

bolivarshagnasty

<< <i>That coin does nothing for me on an aesthetic level. For whatever reason, I generally prefer the "snow white"
look with this series. >>



I am in this camp though I have lots of other toned dollars.

magikbilly

Both are nice, but I prefer the last one. Seems more "together" in appearance, but the skins on the first one...tough call. One dramatic, one subtly killer.

Thanks for showing them.

Eric

mdwoods

Gorgeous coin. The prettiest toned Peace dollar I've ever seen. The second coin is also lovely. Why is it only a 63? It looks cleaner than that.

bsshog40

I like them both! Regardless of beliefs, I think that silver has a tendency in the right situations to tone differently than people are used to. Silver Eagles are a great example of that.

magikbilly

<< <i>I like them both! Regardless of beliefs, I think that silver has a tendency in the right situations to tone differently than people are used to. Silver Eagles are a great example of that. >>



Different composition no?

Eric

lostincoins

Both coins are very nice looking and it is neat to see something a bit different every now and then.

Cacoinguy

Beautiful coins, usually the toned peace dollars I find are of dark toning with no color

Boosibri

<< <i>

<< <i>That coin does nothing for me on an aesthetic level. For whatever reason, I generally prefer the "snow white"
look with this series. >>



I am in this camp though I have lots of other toned dollars. >>



In that case you have your choice of the other 12 billion Peace dollars in existence.

OldIndianNutKase

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

Toning would never if the coin were to be preserved in a hermetic container filled with nitrogen gas. ALL toning exists due to environmental causes. The question is if these "environmental" causes are numismatically acceptable. Certainly, bag conditions with Morgan dollars has provided unusually colored specimens. These specimens have been known for many years. But if David Hall does not recollect such coins in the '60's and 70's , could it be that this coin had no toning back then? I think this is probable. There exist a number of remarkably toned Lincoln proofs cents from 1961. Yet I have five or so 1961 proof sets which are in original mint wrap and none of the show any toning at all.

I collect toned coins. I love the look of toned coins. But colorful toning on silver coinage like the Peace dollar posted by the OP will always draw skepticism from those of us that never recall seeing such a coin forty+ years ago.

OINK

Sunnywood

OINK, I suspect there were small numbers of such coins 40 years ago too, just as there are today. But the trend then was to dump all silver dollars into bathtubs filled with Jeweluster, stir with a broomstick, and "Voila!" white coins. To my mind, those dipped white coins are "Artifically Untoned" !!! The difference is that there were enough Morgans stored for decades in older mint bags that got spectacular rainbow toning, that people realized some of those should not be dipped. However, the 1921 Morgans and Peace dollars didn't generally tone attractively in the bags, if at all. Whether through differences in alloy, surfaces, planchet preparation, burlap bags or storage practices, when the Peace dollars toned, it was generally in an unattractive way ... so they all got dipped. There do seem to be some of the earlier date Peace dollars that have some colorful toning which appears correct to me. As I did complete an entire Morgan set with toning over a period of many years, I do have a LOT of experience looking at toned dollars. I have my own "red flags" for possible AT coins, and "green lights" for things that I look for as being genuine. This Peace dollar appears genuine to me, although believe me I do accord A LOT of weight and respect to anything David Hall says. Either way, it's an unusual and cool Peace dollar. (And both PCGS certified, and CAC approved.)

Edited to add: I do find alarming the numbers of nickels with pretty colors, and all kinds of color-toned proof Indian cents, that showed up in the last 15 years. It's not just silver that should give pause.

Sunnywood

DollarAfterDollar

I think there's a growing body of evidence that indicates that the TPG's get a lot of natural toning wrong. Anytime they see something unusual it gets the auto-body bag. I'd love to know how this one escaped that fate. If it were on a Morgan they wouldn't think twice but on a Peace dollar I'll bet this one got a thorough lookseee.

For the record, it is a great looking coin and it's owner should be very proud.

crypto79

The rim toning makes me think that while maybe NT as in incidental, I believe it to be environmentally accelerated such as a cheap holder or folder possibly one that closed on the obv. I can see a tone fan not only enjoying the color but the lofty grade adding up to an elite status but the look doesn't really do it for me with the splotchy texture to the color. Amazing how your passion digs this stuff up, never seen one quite like it.

Swampboy

<< <i>
In that case you have your choice of the other 12 billion Peace dollars in existence. >>



Good one Boosibri.
I'm with you.




<< <i>"Artifically Untoned" !!! >>


A term I shall remember.
Thanks.

robec

David Hall had this comment on Toneddollar's 1922-D Peace Dollar.




" I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.

Like I said...I may be wrong...but...

I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me."

HRH

robec

Here is the reverse.

Jack May have a better, updated photo he can provide.

Sunnywood

Yes I remember Jack's coin ... that reverse is amazing !!!
I will have to do a color map of it when I have time
(putting in the letter codes from the Sunnywood Color Chart).

Sunnywood

Sunnywood

<< <i>The rim toning makes me think that while maybe NT as in incidental, I believe it to be environmentally accelerated such as a cheap holder or folder possibly one that closed on the obv. I can see a tone fan not only enjoying the color but the lofty grade adding up to an elite status but the look doesn't really do it for me with the splotchy texture to the color. Amazing how your passion digs this stuff up, never seen one quite like it. >>



The "splotchy texture" you refer to, especially the "cracks" in the toning, are actually part of the reason I believe this to be quite natural and legit in origin. Having studied toned Morgans for years, I found there were certain distinctive qualities that only appeared on 1921-dated Morgans. Some of those qualities also appear on the few legit-looking rainbow toners from the earlier years of Peace dollars. Obviously must have had to do with planchets (alloy, surfaces, preparation, etc). While some rainbow-toned Peace dollars do exist, they simply don't EVER look like rainbow 1881-S (or similar) Morgans.

Sunnywood

Weiss

I don't find any of these attractive.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>In that case you have your choice of the other 12 billion Peace dollars in existence. >>


I also have the choice of not owning one. They aren't hard to track down should I change my mind...

stman

stman

I guess I'm a hard case when I see someone call a coin "Rainbow toned." In my view a rainbow should be several distinctive bands of the color spectrum. Through the years I see anything with color called "RAINBOW."

TonerGuy

<< <i>
The "splotchy texture" you refer to, especially the "cracks" in the toning, are actually part of the reason I believe this to be quite natural and legit in origin. Having studied toned Morgans for years, I found there were certain distinctive qualities that only appeared on 1921-dated Morgans. Some of those qualities also appear on the few legit-looking rainbow toners from the earlier years of Peace dollars. Obviously must have had to do with planchets (alloy, surfaces, preparation, etc). While some rainbow-toned Peace dollars do exist, they simply don't EVER look like rainbow 1881-S (or similar) Morgans.

Sunnywood >>



Based on fifteen years of collecting, research and selling basically nothing but toned Peace $ and I can tell you that the color progression chart you devised wont be useful for toned Peace $. The difference in the planchets and the wash as well as how Peace $ were stored over the years make toned Peace $ a completely different animal when it comes to toning. As you said rainbow toned Peace $ dont EVER look like a rainbow toned 1881-S Morgan. There are a few that do. Though they are rare. Ive only had 3 or 4 out of hundreds of toned Peace $ Ive handled.

Splotchy and cracking are fairly common on the 1922s. Not so much on any other year. Each year has it own distinctiveness when it comes to the toning patterns mostly due to how the coins were stored. Much of the rainbow toning on the early Philadelphia Mint (1922-1925) coins was due to their use in aftermarket cardboard holders such as the 20th Century frames and other mass marketed holders from the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Even 1926-Ps are hard to find with nice color. And anything later than 1926 is extremely hard to find with anything close to attractive toning. Most of the toning on 1927-1934 coins are either from envelopes or from albums. Based on their relative scarcity these coins werent used in mass marketing schemes thus not allowing for some of the more colorful toning.

There is a very reasonable explanation why no one saw that many toned Peace $ 50 years ago. Who collected Peace $ in 1930s or 1940s ? Apparently they were the SBAs of their day. And quite probably they have only been toning over the past 20-30 yrs. That is plenty of time to tone up nicely though. And 15 years ago when I started my quest, I was told on numerous occasions by dealers that they regularly dipped any toning off Peace $. Its only been in the last 5-10 years that the toned Peace $ got any respect. And even today they dont get that much as you can tell from some of the responses in this thread.

crypto79

<< <i>

<< <i>The rim toning makes me think that while maybe NT as in incidental, I believe it to be environmentally accelerated such as a cheap holder or folder possibly one that closed on the obv. I can see a tone fan not only enjoying the color but the lofty grade adding up to an elite status but the look doesn't really do it for me with the splotchy texture to the color. Amazing how your passion digs this stuff up, never seen one quite like it. >>



The "splotchy texture" you refer to, especially the "cracks" in the toning, are actually part of the reason I believe this to be quite natural and legit in origin. Having studied toned Morgans for years, I found there were certain distinctive qualities that only appeared on 1921-dated Morgans. Some of those qualities also appear on the few legit-looking rainbow toners from the earlier years of Peace dollars. Obviously must have had to do with planchets (alloy, surfaces, preparation, etc). While some rainbow-toned Peace dollars do exist, they simply don't EVER look like rainbow 1881-S (or similar) Morgans.

Sunnywood >>



I agree, I do not think someone could replicate that look with the conventional doctoring methods. I guess what I was getting to is that in my experience that the difficulties you speak of with the obtaining color and from my experience leads me to think that the difference lies with peace dollars rarely toning passively. Every example I have seen tends to be in a extra ordinary situation that over does certain exposures. Like those (war to end all wars) holders from the 70-80 or stuff like that. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. That said that one of the most vivid examples with the largest saturation of color that avoids terminal colors, coupled with the lofty grade I understand why it is treasured.

Weiss

<< <i>I guess I'm a hard case when I see someone call a coin "Rainbow toned." In my view a rainbow should be several distinctive bands of the color spectrum. Through the years I see anything with color called "RAINBOW." >>



My rainbow peace:

TONEDDOLLARS

Interesting enough my toned Peace is a 22-D in PCGS 66 holder, so tonerguy's comment about 22's holds true here.

Ajjohnson77

Here's one I own.

agentjim007

Landed on a real good date.

coinsarefun

<< <i>

This is a 1923-D PCGS MS66 CAC ... I believe it to be one of the finest toned Peace dollars in existence.



Best,
Sunnywood >>








Would this be a better image or did I mess it up?

Weiss

<< <i>Here's one I own.

>>



This I like.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>This I like. >>


Agreed. The rim toning nicely frames the design as opposed to obscuring it. Over time, I've outgrown
"monster" (large percentage of surface area) toning that significantly mutes luster.

TONEDDOLLARS

Thanks Bob, for posting that. Mr. Hall jumped into a post that had many toned Peace dollars in it.
He commented on my 22-d and I'm glad that he did.

lablover

I'll share the only Peace Dollar I own...looks natural to me.

robec

<< <i>Thanks Bob, for posting that. Mr. Hall jumped into a post that had many toned Peace dollars in it.
He commented on my 22-d and I'm glad that he did. >>


Here is the thread from 2009.

Sunnywood

"Based on fifteen years of collecting, research and selling basically nothing but toned Peace $ and I can tell you that the color progression chart you devised wont be useful for toned Peace $."

Actually, that's completely untrue. The laws of physics don't change for Peace dollars. While the appearance and the clarity of the toning is definitely very different from Morgans, the color progression remains absolutely the same. A deep understanding of the color progression is vital to analyzing and understanding the art and science behind toned coins.

Another example is modern toned coins. The first cycle colors can look quite different on moderns, with their glassy, perfectly planar mirrors. As a result, colors like "amber" and "burgundy" on my chart can sometimes appear as bright yellow and hot pink, respectively. So yes, there are some subtle differences between different classes of coins, and Peace S$1 are different from Morgans, but the color chart is still extremely applicable and useful.

Best,
Sunnywood

Sunnywood

coinsarefun, yes your image is more accurate. The Heritage image (which I used) is too light and has obviously been tweaked. The coin actually has deep rich darker toning, the kind that at first appears brown until tilted under a light. Again, it is different in this respect from a bag-toned 1881-S !!!

Sunnywood

TonerGuy

<< <i>
Actually, that's completely untrue. The laws of physics don't change for Peace dollars. While the appearance and the clarity of the toning is definitely very different from Morgans, the color progression remains absolutely the same. A deep understanding of the color progression is vital to analyzing and understanding the art and science behind toned coins.

Another example is modern toned coins. The first cycle colors can look quite different on moderns, with their glassy, perfectly planar mirrors. As a result, colors like "amber" and "burgundy" on my chart can sometimes appear as bright yellow and hot pink, respectively. So yes, there are some subtle differences between different classes of coins, and Peace S$1 are different from Morgans, but the color chart is still extremely applicable and useful.

Best,
Sunnywood >>




If your color progression chart can take "amber" and make it a "bright yellow" and "burgundy" and make it "hot pink" then I am more inclined to agree it is useful for all coins. I did not realize there was that level of variation to it. My apologies.

Sunnywood

There's actually not that much variation. The first cycle colors, which correspond to the thinnest layers of toning, are more affected by surface finish. The glassy "perfect" surfaces of a modern proof have less scatter, and therefore the first cycle colors come off a bit differently. Other than those cases where the toning layer is thin enough to be materially impacted by surface finish, the color chart pretty much applies equally to everything. Certainly, it applies to Peace dollars exactly the same as to Morgan dollars.

It will still be true that toned Peace dollars overall (at arm's length, general appearance etc) have a different look to them than Morgans, but in terms of the color progression, when analyzed correctly, it is the same as for Morgans.

Sunnywood

ChangeInHistory

Here's one of my favorites. Slabbed about 3 years ago, MS-64.

kryptonitecomics

One of the only true rainbows I have ever seen at a show...I simply couldn't pass up the chance to buy it even when a crazy number was thrown out to me. It certainly is one of the few that has banded rainbow toning like you would find on a Morgan:











Note: I no longer own this coin and but I am sure the current owner is still enjoying the eye appeal.

coinguy1989

<< <i>Gorgeous coin. The prettiest toned Peace dollar I've ever seen. The second coin is also lovely. Why is it only a 63? It looks cleaner than that. >>



Sorry about the slow reply; I had forgotten about this thread. I think the marks in the obverse on the head and in front of the head are the culprit. It is still nice (surface wise) for a MS63.

Edited: After looking back at the coin in hand.

coinguy1989

<< <i>One of the only true rainbows I have ever seen at a show...I simply couldn't pass up the chance to buy it even when a crazy number was thrown out to me. It certainly is one of the few that has banded rainbow toning like you would find on a Morgan:

Note: I no longer own this coin and but I am sure the current owner is still enjoying the eye appeal. >>



It is definitely part of my core collection and one of the few pieces that I will never sell. I very much appreciate you selling it to me!