Making money has been a primary motivator of coin collectors since at least the 1950's. Anyone who witnessed the rapid drop off in the number of collectors following the May 1964 coin market collapse knows that once the profit motive was gone, so were the collectors.
Why do you think we see ever increasing gradations of grades. It is about the money for many, if not most collectors.
From Wikipedia--"Greed (Latin, avaritia), .... is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. ... As a secular psychological concept, greed is, similarly, an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs."
Guilty as charged....and I think there may be a few more guilty folks here. After all, how many collector coins do we really need?
When you stretch and buy a ?? morgan for 1000 bucks that you are proud and you take it home to stare at it day after day for months or a year whatever. Then one day after you have read about xx coin you decide you really want one but it cost 2000 dollars. You decide to take the coin you bought last year for a 1000 bucks that the dealer went on and on about how great the coin is and how it will do you right to the dealer you are looking to purchase the new coin from. The dealer looks at your coin and starts commenting on being overgraded and AT or whatever and he is a buyer at 300 dollars. It kind of sours you. It was a great coin to buy but a terrible coin to sell.
This same thing can and does play out with guns, cars and other collectibles. It makes you gun shy to pull the trigger.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>
Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
...interesting...I love a good and fair bet. If I were to take your action TDN, it would be only because Simpson probably couldn't care any less if he breaks even or not. He is a whale, a real whale that could probably buy every single US coin ever minted that holds a numismatic value. On the other hand, I will not fade your wager simply because Legend's new auction system setup and the way you guys do business makes me feel that Mr. Simpson will probably break far more than even. If you do find a taker for your action, I would be willing to house the funds for all parties and then pay them out to the winner/winners...for a teeny-weeny but nominal fee
FYI, I live a very short distance from Mexico and can drive to Las Vegas before midnight, so no breaking the law on my part, Erik >>
I'm not sure I understand how Simpson's attitude or Legend's "new auction system setup" impacts the prices the collection will realize. I believe the coins will be sold without reserves and surely any interested buyers would have been aware of the sale no matter which auction house was handling it given the inevitable publicity surrounding the sale.
<<From Wikipedia--Greed (Latin, avaritia), .... is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.
Guilty as charged....and I think there may be a few more here.>>
Well, when you put it like that... But I am adding to my areas of interest, new things/unknown things and unpublished/previously unseen things...and am not looking at the $, so I am greedy with...history? Or it is just OCD? I find OCD to be a great benefit and advantage, mostly. Insomnia too, awesome for tremendous work spurts, but after the third day...
<< <i>Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>
Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
...interesting...I love a good and fair bet. If I were to take your action TDN, it would be only because Simpson probably couldn't care any less if he breaks even or not. He is a whale, a real whale that could probably buy every single US coin ever minted that holds a numismatic value. On the other hand, I will not fade your wager simply because Legend's new auction system setup and the way you guys do business makes me feel that Mr. Simpson will probably break far more than even. If you do find a taker for your action, I would be willing to house the funds for all parties and then pay them out to the winner/winners...for a teeny-weeny but nominal fee
FYI, I live a very short distance from Mexico and can drive to Las Vegas before midnight, so no breaking the law on my part, Erik >>
I'm not sure I understand how Simpson's attitude or Legend's "new auction system setup" impacts the prices the collection will realize. I believe the coins will be sold without reserves and surely any interested buyers would have been aware of the sale no matter which auction house was handling it given the inevitable publicity surrounding the sale. >>
It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun Also, I will donate any winnings to the ANA's YN program...
<< <i>It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun Also, I will donate any winnings to the ANA's YN program... >>
Legend is hipper than Heritage with "the kids". Who knew? Seriously, I'm going to speculate that the age of the average winner of these coins will be higher than you might be postulating here. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to continue dealing with any company that chose to divulge publicly what I paid them for a private deal after the fact. Good luck getting the info on what Simpson paid.
<< <i>It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun Also, I will donate any winnings to the ANA's YN program... >>
Legend is hipper than Heritage with "the kids". Who knew? Seriously, I'm going to speculate that the age of the average winner of these coins will be higher than you might be postulating here. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to continue dealing with any company that chose to divulge publicly what I paid them for a private deal after the fact. Good luck getting the info on what Simpson paid. >>
...alrighty then...so you will not put your money where your mouth is then? I understand...I guess. See for a bet like this it would be considered an over/under type deal where the exact amount paid would never have to be revealed. The only thing needed to grade the wager would be (A) he broke even...Or (B) he did not. I to feel it would be in bad taste to publicly divulge what was paid, but I also feel that a bet is a bet and I am willing to only go via PM to grade this wager. Also, like I said...any (ALL) winnings would be donated to the ANA's YN program. So good luck to you for schlepping out on a fair wager, where the proceeds would go to a great cause
The main thing that has changed since the late 50s and 1960s is that you can no longer find old neat coins in change any longer.
The scammers were around 'optimistically' grading coins, be it at shops or for auction. A dealer who sold you that "gem BU' looked you in the eye and called it an 'Unc' when you tried to sell it at most shops. You were a gambler if you bought an 09 S VDB or a 16 D Dime because of all of the fakes.
Coins are marketed more aggressively now, and they are much more expensive, except for that 50 D Nickel in Unc or that Red Unc roll of 55 S Cents . But not much else has changed.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Ya it's the money that is what we are collecting right. If not we would be collecting bottle caps!! But i think you can get $$$ for them as whell. Not much to collect that is not worth money....
I think the thrill of finding stuff worth more than face is one of things that started the folder filling collectors of the past. The old penny boards got started by magazine ads saying they would send you the board and buy it after you filled it so even the YNs that started filling them were out for the thrill of making a profit but some of them got hooked as collectors. Now it seems like the big fish are doing ok and the top pop super rare coins still do well but the average guys collector coins seem less in style. I do think it would help if a new collector base grows to replace the older ones. When those YNs grow up and make more money they might be the next generation of big fish.
Some things might help, more focus on collecting from change??? Websites about it??? Sharing with YNs??? I don't know the answers.
<< <i>I have noticed something here and other places. More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins. This will be the down fall of the hobby. Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby. Just my view,. >>
The handbasket appeared on the horizon when slabbing began. It's hard to love a coin you cannot touch.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started.
As the Talking Heads song goes: "Same as it ever was."
Remember -- our hobby is the buying, selling and collecting MONEY. To say that monetary concerns hold no interest for us is to be disingenuous. We aren't collecting the ribbons that fall off of the ears of puppies, after all.
If you look back in the history of our hobby, it has been the same for many decades. I am too young to recall the chalk boards at coin shows in the 1960's that posted the buy/sell spreads on modern proof sets, but I know they existed.
Yet from that time until now our hobby has grown considerably. There were ups and downs, but the trend was and is upward. Who do you think buys the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins at the major coin auctions every year? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins the US mint sells? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins sold on eBay each year? Not to mention coin shows, and coin shops.
"In times like these, it is important to remember that there have always been times like these."
Dave Wnuck. Redbook contributor; long time PNG Member; listed on the PCGS Board of Experts. PM me with your email address to receive my e-newsletter, and visit DaveWcoins.com Find me on eBay at davewcoins
<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started. >>
Now THAT is the right attitude and gives solid evidence this hobby will be alive and kicking far into the future.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
Slabbing coin became important, because some (not all) dealers inflated grades by a mile, and collectors got burnt.
Quality coins have always been in demand. Not so much the grade but the eye appeal is more important.
Education is needed at all levels. I can't believe how little knowledge some buyers have at coin shows.
There is sooo much room to upgrede some collections and is just not being done. I mean for the price of a beer many can upgrade a coin they currently have. Example-- I saw a liberty nickel set with the most common coins in good. How hard would it be to get coins with a full LIBERTY on it?
Coin collecting is an outstanding hobby with so much information accociated with it. To include history.
One sad note is that in the past collectors would get together and show each other thier collections with pride. That has seemed to have gone away.
I remember a show where different clubs would put together the best coins in a set and compete. These were NOT exhibits, just coin sets. A good time was had by all,
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
I can't believe how little knowledge some buyers have at coin shows.
Then capitalize on your knowledge. No matter what the hobby or business is, the guy with more info always can come out ahead. Or write a book and educate others
>>>Greed will be very obvious at the ANA starting at 8am<<<
Bingo! This is greed at the fullest extent. Like 2 years ago when the reverse Buff came out at ANA! Look at all the money that was spent and sold on that crap that could have been spent on coins...real coins.
If I was a dealer set up there I would not be happy!
I don't care for flippers at all, but that is the name of the game........MAKE MONEY!
As the Talking Heads song goes: "Same as it ever was."
Remember -- our hobby is the buying, selling and collecting MONEY. To say that monetary concerns hold no interest for us is to be disingenuous. We aren't collecting the ribbons that fall off of the ears of puppies, after all.
If you look back in the history of our hobby, it has been the same for many decades. I am too young to recall the chalk boards at coin shows in the 1960's that posted the buy/sell spreads on modern proof sets, but I know they existed.
Yet from that time until now our hobby has grown considerably. There were ups and downs, but the trend was and is upward. Who do you think buys the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins at the major coin auctions every year? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins the US mint sells? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins sold on eBay each year? Not to mention coin shows, and coin shops.
"In times like these, it is important to remember that there have always been times like these." >>
<< <i>...alrighty then...so you will not put your money where your mouth is then? I understand...I guess. See for a bet like this it would be considered an over/under type deal where the exact amount paid would never have to be revealed. The only thing needed to grade the wager would be (A) he broke even...Or (B) he did not. I to feel it would be in bad taste to publicly divulge what was paid, but I also feel that a bet is a bet and I am willing to only go via PM to grade this wager. Also, like I said...any (ALL) winnings would be donated to the ANA's YN program. So good luck to you for schlepping out on a fair wager, where the proceeds would go to a great cause
Erik >>
I have a strong hunch that Simpson will end up making money on the set, but given that I have no idea what he's got invested in it, why would I consider wagering on said hunch?
<< <i>EOC remember pocket change, when was the last time a cheerios pattern was found in pocket change? EOC you are an error expert collector and could not get 10 coins. If the mint does not do something to change this then what does this hobby have to look forward to as the same coins can only be sold over and over again before people say enough is enough. Many coins being collected today get passed around between the top collectors who have the money to continue to collect in that manor but no matter what we are all just temporary caretakers of the coins we like as some day we will all be gone too.... >>
Those were just expensive varieties off the top of my head after spend 7 hours on the pacific.
I do not for the most part collect varieties, only major mint errors.
What else could a YN find in a new bu roll from the bank ......
missing clad layer missing edge lettering die adjustment strike split die struck on defective / damaged planchet off metal double struck in collar double denomination huge cuds huge clips major die fill major die crack sintered planchet struck in rolled in wire major struck thru cloth, string, wire, scrap, capped die, etc
I think you may be waxing poetic and being somewhat nostalgic. The market is more sophisticated then it's ever been and that is a problem for some. The bourse is no longer the main driver for the hobby. Therefore the hobby is perhaps less personable then in the past. That is not exclusive to the coin industry. There is more information available and more collectors then meet the eye. Much more. Evidence the Gardner sale where so many big and winning bids came via the internet. It sure wasn't from an overflowing auction room.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yeah, who cares about how these dam- widgets look anyway? Just box up any ole crap and put a "First Strike " label on it and go. It really has become a joke.
At least the UHR is actually a nice coin to look at and does well enough in OGP...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Yeah, who cares about how these dam- widgets look anyway? Just box up any ole crap and put a "First Strike " label on it and go. It really has become a joke.
At least the UHR is actually a nice coin to look at and does well enough in OGP… >>
I still think those HOFs are a real Boobie prize, I mean you got to get a pair of them one proof and one unc and you need to go and pick them up in person too. Then of course I could be mistaken in that case nevermind.
Part of the challenge for parting with the old (model) and ushering in the new (model) is understanding that technology has changed society forever, and this new societal norm is different than it used to be...so of course people might behave differently, but that is natural. Nothing stays the same... This change is neither bad nor good; it is different and for that reason some might like it and some might not.
Personally for me, without the changes in how things work it would have been impossible to acquire the kind of coins I have now in my collection; I haven't been to a major coin show in 10 years and there are no "big" dealers around me with higher quality/tougher to find inventory in what interests me. If the byproduct of more access and information and availability is new interest from "investor" collectors, so be it. To each his own... real "investor" collector type would pose absolutely no risk to me as I don't buy 5 to 6 figure coins.
Threads like this remind of...
"Change is a dragon. You can ignore it, which is futile. You can fight it, in which case you will lose. Or you can ride it.” -- Arianne Wing on the closing of the world-famous Imperial Dynasty restaurant in Hanford, CA; quoted in The Hanford Sentinel, Dec. 17, 2005.
It's definitely something I've seen, and a part of the reason I hardly ever post on this forum anymore.
I'm in it solely for the history aspect, and when I joined 5 years ago, I was willing to sift through the posts that weren't about history, to find the good stuff.
Now, the posts that I want to read (in the US coin section anyway) are so few and far between that it's almost not even worth the time to try and find them.
I don't care what some jerk is hawking on Ebay, I don't care what some number is placed on a piece of plastic, I don't care how a new coin is going to be released, I don't care what metal content a coin is, etc.
I DO care about what the coin is - what designs it features, that is what I care about. I have an interest in mintage but mainly in my OCD with numbers thing. (I'm sure most of you will understand this, as collecting things and OCD goes hand in hand). I care how a coin was made, I love the technology that goes into making it. I mostly collect through circulation, and I'm very thrilled when I add a new date- but this forum, as a general rule, could not care less when I find a new quarter in my change. I know it, and I don't care, because it makes ME happy to find them...and I know that quarter will be in my collection for the rest of my life. I'm very much proud of the fact that I have found cents from every year from 1933 through 2014 in circulation. And several years earlier, dating back to 1905, as well. I know they are coins that pretty much every one on this forum who wants one will most likely already have it- and probably in a higher grade, to boot, and so it's not really worth posting. (Although to be honest I prefer circulated coins, as they have more history in my opinion)
I've been a collector of various things my whole life. Literally speaking, I cannot remember a time when I was not a collector of something. My earliest additions to various collections I still keep came, as gifts, when I was 1 month old. I shall be 30 in a few months. In all those years, in all those collections, I've never sold anything, and of that I am most proud. Not even duplicates, although I have been known to give duplicates away, or trade for something I don't yet have. I came to this hobby fairly late- I only started really in 2008, although I did collect the state quarters when they began in 1999. (As I didn't know then what mint marks were, or anything else about anything, I don't really count that.)
There are many more scholarly posts in the world coin and currency forums, and I have been spending much more time there. Even though costs incurred via various health problems have essentially forced me out of the hobby, I still read the historical posts, or try to again after taking several months away from the hobby in despair.
A point was made earlier in the thread about nobody showing their sets of the new shield cents- here's mine. I LOVE the new reverse. I actually like it more than the Memorial or even the Wheat reverse. I have not been able to find the Denver mint issues yet, excepting the 2013 that I received as a Christmas gift last year. They aren't as bad as they look in the scans, my scanner has gotten dropped a few times and is just barely hanging on. Uncirculated coins don't scan good to begin with. (I have not scanned 2012 yet)
Just my views from probably the smallest fish in this very large pond. (I've never spent more than $50 on any one thing in my coin or currency collection. My entire hobby expenditure in 2014 is so far around $30 on magazines, I have not purchased any coins or currency in 2014...although I want to, medicine has to come first.)
<< <i>It's definitely something I've seen, and a part of the reason I hardly ever post on this forum anymore.
I'm in it solely for the history aspect, and when I joined 5 years ago, I was willing to sift through the posts that weren't about history, to find the good stuff.
Now, the posts that I want to read (in the US coin section anyway) are so few and far between that it's almost not even worth the time to try and find them.
I don't care what some jerk is hawking on Ebay, I don't care what some number is placed on a piece of plastic, I don't care how a new coin is going to be released, I don't care what metal content a coin is, etc.
I DO care about what the coin is - what designs it features, that is what I care about. I have an interest in mintage but mainly in my OCD with numbers thing. (I'm sure most of you will understand this, as collecting things and OCD goes hand in hand). I care how a coin was made, I love the technology that goes into making it. I mostly collect through circulation, and I'm very thrilled when I add a new date- but this forum, as a general rule, could not care less when I find a new quarter in my change. I know it, and I don't care, because it makes ME happy to find them...and I know that quarter will be in my collection for the rest of my life. I'm very much proud of the fact that I have found cents from every year from 1933 through 2014 in circulation. And several years earlier, dating back to 1905, as well. I know they are coins that pretty much every one on this forum who wants one will most likely already have it- and probably in a higher grade, to boot, and so it's not really worth posting. (Although to be honest I prefer circulated coins, as they have more history in my opinion)
I've been a collector of various things my whole life. Literally speaking, I cannot remember a time when I was not a collector of something. My earliest additions to various collections I still keep came, as gifts, when I was 1 month old. I shall be 30 in a few months. In all those years, in all those collections, I've never sold anything, and of that I am most proud. Not even duplicates, although I have been known to give duplicates away, or trade for something I don't yet have. I came to this hobby fairly late- I only started really in 2008, although I did collect the state quarters when they began in 1999. (As I didn't know then what mint marks were, or anything else about anything, I don't really count that.)
There are many more scholarly posts in the world coin and currency forums, and I have been spending much more time there. Even though costs incurred via various health problems have essentially forced me out of the hobby, I still read the historical posts, or try to again after taking several months away from the hobby in despair.
A point was made earlier in the thread about nobody showing their sets of the new shield cents- here's mine. I LOVE the new reverse. I actually like it more than the Memorial or even the Wheat reverse. I have not been able to find the Denver mint issues yet, excepting the 2013 that I received as a Christmas gift last year. They aren't as bad as they look in the scans, my scanner has gotten dropped a few times and is just barely hanging on. Uncirculated coins don't scan good to begin with. (I have not scanned 2012 yet)
Just my views from probably the smallest fish in this very large pond. (I've never spent more than $50 on any one thing in my coin or currency collection. My entire hobby expenditure in 2014 is so far around $30 on magazines, I have not purchased any coins or currency in 2014...although I want to, medicine has to come first.) >>
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GO TO AN ANA CONVENTION ?? YOU CAN VIEW LOTSA COINS AND EXHIBITS THERE.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I certainly wouldn't bet against TDN on what the ex-Sunnywood dollar set will bring. After all, he wasn't able or allowed to buy it at a fixed price....so he already knows the minimum amount it will bring.
And in a roundabout way, Sunnywood coming back to the market and buying up some neat toners in the Gardner sale has put extra emphasis on his old set. Mr. Simpson is happy for that.
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager.
<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started. >>
Now THAT is the right attitude and gives solid evidence this hobby will be alive and kicking far into the future. >>
Except you'll find that, should the prices of early desirable material "go bust", so too will the minimal supply. If it goes bust enough, it becomes not worth the time for someone in possession of such to sell to you, unless they are dog-desperate for money. So there won't be any available, pretty much, unless you offer to pay X, XX, or XXX to get it loose from the hands of the current owner.
That's on the "yay, everything will be cheap one day" side of things. It's also quite possible to overpay for some things -- perhaps drastically overpay. Even with the very cream of the crop type of stuff. Say a given coin is seen as a "good value" at just over 1 million -- and Bill Gates got all excited at the prospects of buying it from a sharp seller, who perhaps "overrepresented" the relative desirability of said piece, and it sold to him for $20 million outright. Then two years later, Bill decides to dump it for whatever reason. Is there a buyer at $20 million? At $15? The relative dollar amounts may change, but it's not too hard to sometimes overpay for any collectible.
I believe collectibles ( coins, comics, baseball cards, and so on) are made up of many different sub categories/series. Each collectibe has a cycle and each sub category also has a cycle. How it is driven varies. Timing and the style of collector/Investor can be very crucial to optimize the financial outcome. I believe most of us know what is usually "Hot" in the marketplace, conversely, we have an idea of what is not. I have only been collecting for 20 plus years. I collected bust coinage by die marriage. No one wanted much of this in the 1990's so I was able to pick out some good items from show to show. Ebay was also good back then. (Now a days, I don't see as many people who are willing to reach as much).
What has helped? I did my homework, I studied my series. I spoke of timing. Not just market timing but how long I held onto my coins. If I would have sold my coins in a short time I would have lost some money on the less rare items. Hanging on to my collection helped quite a bit. Assisting with publicizing my series may have had another positive part. Purchasing "choice for the grade" really helped me. Purchasing beautiful coins really helped. Getting my coins slabbed really helped. Yes, I had to eliminate as much risk to sell as possible because selling can be difficult "when you want top dollar." In the end, I chose to carefully evaluate each risk hazard. I do try to watch my surroundings. I am a contrarian of sorts. I don't follow the Main Stream.
Fast forward to 2014. Die marriage collecting has slowed a bit while other aspects of collecting has taken off. Choice, beautiful coins will always be beautiful choice coins. We will always "Transition" "Cycle." I collect what I like, but I also keep much in mind.
Some of my worst investments are because "I got the Ebay Blues" or because I made foolish purchases at coin shows because I had to buy something!
Lastly, The United States is not the only Country out there with beautiful coinage out there.
Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
Foul ball imo. It can only be defined on what was paid vs sold. Lost opportunity is a different subject. For all we know he had 90% of his money in the stock market during this time. Some don't put their collectables (non fungible) on the asset side of the ledger. I know I don't.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
Foul ball imo. It can only be defined on what was paid vs sold. Lost opportunity is a different subject. For all we know he had 90% of his money in the stock market during this time. Some don't put their collectables (non fungible) on the asset side of the ledger. I know I don't.
MJ >>
Except I am sure most would not leave 5 MM, or however many millions it was, sitting in a shoebox for 5 years. The stupidest mutual fund would have doubled your money. Seems like a logical place to park a chunk of cash. If these coins sell for more than he paid, a reasonable person will say, "he made a good investment". You have to view the money used otherwise then under the same terms. At least if I am taking the bet.
When a large portion of the country is stuck in economic purgatory like it is now people will find ways to try to make a fast buck without the need to invest time or knowledge. If people think they can make a few dollars without much hard work people will do it. When stories of flipping mint products for several hundred dollars profit and the only commitment required is to stand in line for an hour float around or selling a coin for an instant profit are told, people will do it.
This mentality isn't exclusive to coins. It could be high rise condos, Beanie Babies, penny stocks, etc.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Except I am sure most would not leave 5 MM, or however many millions it was, sitting in a shoebox for 5 years. The stupidest mutual fund would have doubled your money. Seems like a logical place to park a chunk of cash. If these coins sell for more than he paid, a reasonable person will say, "he made a good investment". You have to view the money used otherwise then under the same terms. At least if I am taking the bet. >>
Yikes, this thread took a terrible turn.
It was supposed to be lamenting the greed and money seeking in the coin hobby, and it ended up talking about wagering over what kind of investment makes the best profit.
I hope to get to the ANA when it comes to Philadelphia again. I was going to go last time but had a scheduling conflict...and now I don't even remember what it was, LOL.
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
I get the gist of what your saying but....
A money manager who 'only' tracked the S&P 500 from 2009-2014 is not an idiot.
Also I don't think its a fair comparison of coins and stocks at all.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
To the investment discussion: hindsight is always 20/20. The S&P could have gone down in the same period. Investing in a "blue chip" company even carries risk - anything can happen (products can cause cancer, CEOs can be corrupt, cars can malfunction, etc.) Hoards of coins can be found, "speculators" can leave the market, etc.
In the end, we can enjoy our coins, learn about them, and appreciate them for their history and aesthetics. I bet Sunnywood/Simpson/TDN/Gardner/and others all have greatly enjoyed their coins. That enjoyment is worth a lot in my eyes. Stock certificates and hoping people at the helm of companies make the "right" decisions in a highly global, politically influenced, tumultuous world don't carry nearly the same enjoyment to me.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
Comments
Why do you think we see ever increasing gradations of grades. It is about the money for many, if not most collectors.
And what about the flippers?
...
As a secular psychological concept, greed is, similarly, an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs."
Guilty as charged....and I think there may be a few more guilty folks here. After all, how many collector coins do we really need?
Tom
This same thing can and does play out with guns, cars and other collectibles. It makes you gun shy to pull the trigger.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
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<< <i>Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>
Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
...interesting...I love a good and fair bet. If I were to take your action TDN, it would be only because Simpson probably couldn't care any less if he breaks even or not. He is a whale, a real whale that could probably buy every single US coin ever minted that holds a numismatic value. On the other hand, I will not fade your wager simply because Legend's new auction system setup and the way you guys do business makes me feel that Mr. Simpson will probably break far more than even. If you do find a taker for your action, I would be willing to house the funds for all parties and then pay them out to the winner/winners...for a teeny-weeny but nominal fee
FYI, I live a very short distance from Mexico and can drive to Las Vegas before midnight, so no breaking the law on my part,
Erik >>
I'm not sure I understand how Simpson's attitude or Legend's "new auction system setup" impacts the prices
the collection will realize. I believe the coins will be sold without reserves and surely any interested buyers
would have been aware of the sale no matter which auction house was handling it given the inevitable
publicity surrounding the sale.
Guilty as charged....and I think there may be a few more here.>>
Well, when you put it like that...
But I am adding to my areas of interest, new things/unknown things and unpublished/previously unseen things...and am not looking at the $, so I am greedy with...history? Or it is just OCD? I find OCD to be a great benefit and advantage, mostly. Insomnia too, awesome for tremendous work spurts, but after the third day...
Eric
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<< <i>Great quality is always in demand. Paying a lot, even what seems extreme, is sometimes great protection against decline....... And in any world, you have to pay up for that privilege. >>
Then put these coins up for auction and see what happens. I guarantee you won't break even. >>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
...interesting...I love a good and fair bet. If I were to take your action TDN, it would be only because Simpson probably couldn't care any less if he breaks even or not. He is a whale, a real whale that could probably buy every single US coin ever minted that holds a numismatic value. On the other hand, I will not fade your wager simply because Legend's new auction system setup and the way you guys do business makes me feel that Mr. Simpson will probably break far more than even. If you do find a taker for your action, I would be willing to house the funds for all parties and then pay them out to the winner/winners...for a teeny-weeny but nominal fee
FYI, I live a very short distance from Mexico and can drive to Las Vegas before midnight, so no breaking the law on my part,
Erik >>
I'm not sure I understand how Simpson's attitude or Legend's "new auction system setup" impacts the prices
the collection will realize. I believe the coins will be sold without reserves and surely any interested buyers
would have been aware of the sale no matter which auction house was handling it given the inevitable
publicity surrounding the sale. >>
It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun
<< <i>It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun
Legend is hipper than Heritage with "the kids". Who knew? Seriously, I'm going to speculate
that the age of the average winner of these coins will be higher than you might be postulating here.
Also, I'm not sure I'd want to continue dealing with any company that chose to divulge publicly what
I paid them for a private deal after the fact. Good luck getting the info on what Simpson paid.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not about his attitude...it's about perceived reality. Also, Legend IMHO has setup a new auction system and online catalog that will get a lot more views from younger money...that's the key, younger money place nuke bids on things they want in this day and age IMO. The day of the dinosaur have just about passed us by. This analogy is strictly my opinion at 33 years old, and not having even enough money to place an opening bid on some these beauties. My standpoint is only what I have analyzed in regards to a bet...the bet being "will Simpson break even?" Based on the above, I would think yes. The power of the Internet is just now breaking into numismatics and it's about time. Dinosaurs die off but their booty/treasure stays alive
It seems I have actually talked myself into thinking TDN will win this bet, so therefore my chump change will be placed where my mouth is. I have no idea what Simpson paid but I trust that TDN could verify in the end to grade a fair wager. I'll lay $250 (again, chump change) says Simpson breaks even or better. PM me if you want to fade my action.
Erik
Edit to add: I'll take one fade... No multiples, gotta make it fun
Legend is hipper than Heritage with "the kids". Who knew? Seriously, I'm going to speculate
that the age of the average winner of these coins will be higher than you might be postulating here.
Also, I'm not sure I'd want to continue dealing with any company that chose to divulge publicly what
I paid them for a private deal after the fact. Good luck getting the info on what Simpson paid. >>
...alrighty then...so you will not put your money where your mouth is then? I understand...I guess. See for a bet like this it would be considered an over/under type deal where the exact amount paid would never have to be revealed. The only thing needed to grade the wager would be (A) he broke even...Or (B) he did not. I to feel it would be in bad taste to publicly divulge what was paid, but I also feel that a bet is a bet and I am willing to only go via PM to grade this wager. Also, like I said...any (ALL) winnings would be donated to the ANA's YN program. So good luck to you for schlepping out on a fair wager, where the proceeds would go to a great cause
Erik
The scammers were around 'optimistically' grading coins, be it at shops or for auction. A dealer who sold you that "gem BU' looked you in the eye and called it an 'Unc' when you tried to sell it at most shops. You were a gambler if you bought an 09 S VDB or a 16 D Dime because of all of the fakes.
Coins are marketed more aggressively now, and they are much more expensive, except for that 50 D Nickel in Unc or that Red Unc roll of 55 S Cents . But not much else has changed.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Hoard the keys.
The old penny boards got started by magazine ads saying they would send you the board and buy it after you filled it so even the YNs that started filling them were out for the thrill of making a profit but some of them got hooked as collectors.
Now it seems like the big fish are doing ok and the top pop super rare coins still do well but the average guys collector coins seem less in style.
I do think it would help if a new collector base grows to replace the older ones. When those YNs grow up and make more money they might be the next generation of big fish.
Some things might help, more focus on collecting from change??? Websites about it??? Sharing with YNs???
I don't know the answers.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I have noticed something here and other places.
More and more people are more interested in making money than collecting coins.
This will be the down fall of the hobby.
Greed has NO place in the coin collecting hobby.
Just my view,. >>
The handbasket appeared on the horizon when slabbing began. It's hard to love a coin you cannot touch.
<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started.
As the Talking Heads song goes: "Same as it ever was."
Remember -- our hobby is the buying, selling and collecting MONEY. To say that monetary concerns hold no interest for us is to be disingenuous. We aren't collecting the ribbons that fall off of the ears of puppies, after all.
If you look back in the history of our hobby, it has been the same for many decades. I am too young to recall the chalk boards at coin shows in the 1960's that posted the buy/sell spreads on modern proof sets, but I know they existed.
Yet from that time until now our hobby has grown considerably. There were ups and downs, but the trend was and is upward. Who do you think buys the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins at the major coin auctions every year? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins the US mint sells? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins sold on eBay each year? Not to mention coin shows, and coin shops.
"In times like these, it is important to remember that there have always been times like these."
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<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started. >>
Now THAT is the right attitude and gives solid evidence this hobby will be alive and kicking far into the future.
http://macrocoins.com
Slabbing coin became important, because some (not all) dealers inflated grades by a mile, and collectors got burnt.
Quality coins have always been in demand.
Not so much the grade but the eye appeal is more important.
Education is needed at all levels.
I can't believe how little knowledge some buyers have at coin shows.
There is sooo much room to upgrede some collections and is just not being done.
I mean for the price of a beer many can upgrade a coin they currently have.
Example-- I saw a liberty nickel set with the most common coins in good. How hard would it be to get coins with a full LIBERTY on it?
Coin collecting is an outstanding hobby with so much information accociated with it.
To include history.
One sad note is that in the past collectors would get together and show each other thier collections with pride. That has seemed to have gone away.
I remember a show where different clubs would put together the best coins in a set and compete.
These were NOT exhibits, just coin sets.
A good time was had by all,
Keep the coins "raw"and enjoy the hobby.
Go to "grade" the hobby becomes part of the economy.
It's a personal choice.
Then capitalize on your knowledge. No matter what the hobby or business is, the guy with more info always can come out ahead.
Or write a book and educate others
Bingo! This is greed at the fullest extent. Like 2 years ago when the reverse Buff came out at ANA! Look at all the money that was spent and sold on that crap that could have been spent on coins...real coins.
If I was a dealer set up there I would not be happy!
I don't care for flippers at all, but that is the name of the game........MAKE MONEY!
I prefer to collect.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Hey folks.
As the Talking Heads song goes: "Same as it ever was."
Remember -- our hobby is the buying, selling and collecting MONEY. To say that monetary concerns hold no interest for us is to be disingenuous. We aren't collecting the ribbons that fall off of the ears of puppies, after all.
If you look back in the history of our hobby, it has been the same for many decades. I am too young to recall the chalk boards at coin shows in the 1960's that posted the buy/sell spreads on modern proof sets, but I know they existed.
Yet from that time until now our hobby has grown considerably. There were ups and downs, but the trend was and is upward. Who do you think buys the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coins at the major coin auctions every year? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins the US mint sells? How about the hundreds of millions of dollars of coins sold on eBay each year? Not to mention coin shows, and coin shops.
"In times like these, it is important to remember that there have always been times like these." >>
Well said Dave!!!!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Hoard the keys.
If YOU use your knowledge and buy SMART, there is nothing at all wrong in owning coins that for the most part have all gained in value.
<< <i>...alrighty then...so you will not put your money where your mouth is then? I understand...I guess. See for a bet like this it would be considered an over/under type deal where the exact amount paid would never have to be revealed. The only thing needed to grade the wager would be (A) he broke even...Or (B) he did not. I to feel it would be in bad taste to publicly divulge what was paid, but I also feel that a bet is a bet and I am willing to only go via PM to grade this wager. Also, like I said...any (ALL) winnings would be donated to the ANA's YN program. So good luck to you for schlepping out on a fair wager, where the proceeds would go to a great cause
Erik >>
I have a strong hunch that Simpson will end up making money on the set, but given that I have no
idea what he's got invested in it, why would I consider wagering on said hunch?
<< <i>EOC remember pocket change, when was the last time a cheerios pattern was found in pocket change? EOC you are an error expert collector and could not get 10 coins. If the mint does not do something to change this then what does this hobby have to look forward to as the same coins can only be sold over and over again before people say enough is enough. Many coins being collected today get passed around between the top collectors who have the money to continue to collect in that manor but no matter what we are all just temporary caretakers of the coins we like as some day we will all be gone too.... >>
Those were just expensive varieties off the top of my head after spend 7 hours on the pacific.
I do not for the most part collect varieties, only major mint errors.
What else could a YN find in a new bu roll from the bank ......
missing clad layer
missing edge lettering
die adjustment strike
split die
struck on defective / damaged planchet
off metal
double struck in collar
double denomination
huge cuds
huge clips
major die fill
major die crack
sintered planchet
struck in
rolled in wire
major struck thru cloth, string, wire, scrap, capped die, etc
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It really has become a joke.
At least the UHR is actually a nice coin to look at and does well enough in OGP...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Yeah, who cares about how these dam- widgets look anyway? Just box up any ole crap and put a "First Strike " label on it and go.
It really has become a joke.
At least the UHR is actually a nice coin to look at and does well enough in OGP… >>
I hear an Echo here. LQQK. HOF set.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Personally for me, without the changes in how things work it would have been impossible to acquire the kind of coins I have now in my collection; I haven't been to a major coin show in 10 years and there are no "big" dealers around me with higher quality/tougher to find inventory in what interests me. If the byproduct of more access and information and availability is new interest from "investor" collectors, so be it. To each his own... real "investor" collector type would pose absolutely no risk to me as I don't buy 5 to 6 figure coins.
Threads like this remind of...
"Change is a dragon. You can ignore it, which is futile. You can fight it, in which case you will lose. Or you can ride it.”
-- Arianne Wing on the closing of the world-famous Imperial Dynasty restaurant in Hanford, CA; quoted in The Hanford Sentinel, Dec. 17, 2005.
Just sharing my 10 cents
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I'm in it solely for the history aspect, and when I joined 5 years ago, I was willing to sift through the posts that weren't about history, to find the good stuff.
Now, the posts that I want to read (in the US coin section anyway) are so few and far between that it's almost not even worth the time to try and find them.
I don't care what some jerk is hawking on Ebay, I don't care what some number is placed on a piece of plastic, I don't care how a new coin is going to be released, I don't care what metal content a coin is, etc.
I DO care about what the coin is - what designs it features, that is what I care about. I have an interest in mintage but mainly in my OCD with numbers thing. (I'm sure most of you will understand this, as collecting things and OCD goes hand in hand). I care how a coin was made, I love the technology that goes into making it. I mostly collect through circulation, and I'm very thrilled when I add a new date- but this forum, as a general rule, could not care less when I find a new quarter in my change. I know it, and I don't care, because it makes ME happy to find them...and I know that quarter will be in my collection for the rest of my life. I'm very much proud of the fact that I have found cents from every year from 1933 through 2014 in circulation. And several years earlier, dating back to 1905, as well. I know they are coins that pretty much every one on this forum who wants one will most likely already have it- and probably in a higher grade, to boot, and so it's not really worth posting. (Although to be honest I prefer circulated coins, as they have more history in my opinion)
I've been a collector of various things my whole life. Literally speaking, I cannot remember a time when I was not a collector of something. My earliest additions to various collections I still keep came, as gifts, when I was 1 month old. I shall be 30 in a few months. In all those years, in all those collections, I've never sold anything, and of that I am most proud. Not even duplicates, although I have been known to give duplicates away, or trade for something I don't yet have. I came to this hobby fairly late- I only started really in 2008, although I did collect the state quarters when they began in 1999. (As I didn't know then what mint marks were, or anything else about anything, I don't really count that.)
There are many more scholarly posts in the world coin and currency forums, and I have been spending much more time there. Even though costs incurred via various health problems have essentially forced me out of the hobby, I still read the historical posts, or try to again after taking several months away from the hobby in despair.
A point was made earlier in the thread about nobody showing their sets of the new shield cents- here's mine. I LOVE the new reverse. I actually like it more than the Memorial or even the Wheat reverse. I have not been able to find the Denver mint issues yet, excepting the 2013 that I received as a Christmas gift last year. They aren't as bad as they look in the scans, my scanner has gotten dropped a few times and is just barely hanging on. Uncirculated coins don't scan good to begin with.
(I have not scanned 2012 yet)
Just my views from probably the smallest fish in this very large pond. (I've never spent more than $50 on any one thing in my coin or currency collection. My entire hobby expenditure in 2014 is so far around $30 on magazines, I have not purchased any coins or currency in 2014...although I want to, medicine has to come first.)
<< <i>It's definitely something I've seen, and a part of the reason I hardly ever post on this forum anymore.
I'm in it solely for the history aspect, and when I joined 5 years ago, I was willing to sift through the posts that weren't about history, to find the good stuff.
Now, the posts that I want to read (in the US coin section anyway) are so few and far between that it's almost not even worth the time to try and find them.
I don't care what some jerk is hawking on Ebay, I don't care what some number is placed on a piece of plastic, I don't care how a new coin is going to be released, I don't care what metal content a coin is, etc.
I DO care about what the coin is - what designs it features, that is what I care about. I have an interest in mintage but mainly in my OCD with numbers thing. (I'm sure most of you will understand this, as collecting things and OCD goes hand in hand). I care how a coin was made, I love the technology that goes into making it. I mostly collect through circulation, and I'm very thrilled when I add a new date- but this forum, as a general rule, could not care less when I find a new quarter in my change. I know it, and I don't care, because it makes ME happy to find them...and I know that quarter will be in my collection for the rest of my life. I'm very much proud of the fact that I have found cents from every year from 1933 through 2014 in circulation. And several years earlier, dating back to 1905, as well. I know they are coins that pretty much every one on this forum who wants one will most likely already have it- and probably in a higher grade, to boot, and so it's not really worth posting. (Although to be honest I prefer circulated coins, as they have more history in my opinion)
I've been a collector of various things my whole life. Literally speaking, I cannot remember a time when I was not a collector of something. My earliest additions to various collections I still keep came, as gifts, when I was 1 month old. I shall be 30 in a few months. In all those years, in all those collections, I've never sold anything, and of that I am most proud. Not even duplicates, although I have been known to give duplicates away, or trade for something I don't yet have. I came to this hobby fairly late- I only started really in 2008, although I did collect the state quarters when they began in 1999. (As I didn't know then what mint marks were, or anything else about anything, I don't really count that.)
There are many more scholarly posts in the world coin and currency forums, and I have been spending much more time there. Even though costs incurred via various health problems have essentially forced me out of the hobby, I still read the historical posts, or try to again after taking several months away from the hobby in despair.
A point was made earlier in the thread about nobody showing their sets of the new shield cents- here's mine. I LOVE the new reverse. I actually like it more than the Memorial or even the Wheat reverse. I have not been able to find the Denver mint issues yet, excepting the 2013 that I received as a Christmas gift last year. They aren't as bad as they look in the scans, my scanner has gotten dropped a few times and is just barely hanging on. Uncirculated coins don't scan good to begin with.
(I have not scanned 2012 yet)
Just my views from probably the smallest fish in this very large pond. (I've never spent more than $50 on any one thing in my coin or currency collection. My entire hobby expenditure in 2014 is so far around $30 on magazines, I have not purchased any coins or currency in 2014...although I want to, medicine has to come first.) >>
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GO TO AN ANA CONVENTION ?? YOU CAN VIEW LOTSA COINS AND EXHIBITS THERE.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
And in a roundabout way, Sunnywood coming back to the market and buying up some neat toners in the Gardner sale has put extra emphasis on his old set. Mr. Simpson is happy for that.
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Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager.
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<< <i>Someday it might even implode. If it does, I'll be the first one in line to buy up all the newly inexpensive Bust material. To me, a huge market downturn would be called a buying opportunity...... but I'm not really liking my chances...... >>
Bingo. At 19, with hopefully a full collecting life ahead of me, this thought has crossed my mind multiple times whenever threads of this nature are started. >>
Now THAT is the right attitude and gives solid evidence this hobby will be alive and kicking far into the future. >>
Except you'll find that, should the prices of early desirable material "go bust", so too will the minimal supply. If it goes bust enough, it becomes not worth the time for someone in possession of such to sell to you, unless they are dog-desperate for money. So there won't be any available, pretty much, unless you offer to pay X, XX, or XXX to get it loose from the hands of the current owner.
That's on the "yay, everything will be cheap one day" side of things. It's also quite possible to overpay for some things -- perhaps drastically overpay. Even with the very cream of the crop type of stuff. Say a given coin is seen as a "good value" at just over 1 million -- and Bill Gates got all excited at the prospects of buying it from a sharp seller, who perhaps "overrepresented" the relative desirability of said piece, and it sold to him for $20 million outright. Then two years later, Bill decides to dump it for whatever reason. Is there a buyer at $20 million? At $15? The relative dollar amounts may change, but it's not too hard to sometimes overpay for any collectible.
What has helped? I did my homework, I studied my series. I spoke of timing. Not just market timing but how long I held onto my coins. If I would have sold my coins in a short time I would have lost some money on the less rare items. Hanging on to my collection helped quite a bit. Assisting with publicizing my series may have had another positive part. Purchasing "choice for the grade" really helped me. Purchasing beautiful coins really helped. Getting my coins slabbed really helped. Yes, I had to eliminate as much risk to sell as possible because selling can be difficult "when you want top dollar." In the end, I chose to carefully evaluate each risk hazard. I do try to watch my surroundings. I am a contrarian of sorts. I don't follow the Main Stream.
Fast forward to 2014. Die marriage collecting has slowed a bit while other aspects of collecting has taken off. Choice, beautiful coins will always be beautiful choice coins. We will always "Transition" "Cycle." I collect what I like, but I also keep much in mind.
Some of my worst investments are because "I got the Ebay Blues" or because I made foolish purchases at coin shows because I had to buy something!
Lastly, The United States is not the only Country out there with beautiful coinage out there.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
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<< <i>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
Foul ball imo. It can only be defined on what was paid vs sold. Lost opportunity is a different subject. For all we know he had 90% of his money in the stock market during this time. Some don't put their collectables (non fungible) on the asset side of the ledger. I know I don't.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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<< <i>
Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
Foul ball imo. It can only be defined on what was paid vs sold. Lost opportunity is a different subject. For all we know he had 90% of his money in the stock market during this time. Some don't put their collectables (non fungible) on the asset side of the ledger. I know I don't.
MJ >>
Except I am sure most would not leave 5 MM, or however many millions it was, sitting in a shoebox for 5 years. The stupidest mutual fund would have doubled your money. Seems like a logical place to park a chunk of cash. If these coins sell for more than he paid, a reasonable person will say, "he made a good investment". You have to view the money used otherwise then under the same terms. At least if I am taking the bet.
This mentality isn't exclusive to coins. It could be high rise condos, Beanie Babies, penny stocks, etc.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Except I am sure most would not leave 5 MM, or however many millions it was, sitting in a shoebox for 5 years. The stupidest mutual fund would have doubled your money. Seems like a logical place to park a chunk of cash. If these coins sell for more than he paid, a reasonable person will say, "he made a good investment". You have to view the money used otherwise then under the same terms. At least if I am taking the bet. >>
Yikes, this thread took a terrible turn.
It was supposed to be lamenting the greed and money seeking in the coin hobby, and it ended up talking about wagering over what kind of investment makes the best profit.
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Simpson paid top dollar for the Sunnywood Morgan set - are you really guaranteeing that he won't break even this October? Because I will wager that you are wrong... >>
If the criteria for breaking even is defined. For instance, let's use 5 MM for sake of argument.
Sunnywood coins sell for 5 MM in 2009, and in 2014 they sell for ??????
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
In my mind, that is the true break even point. I will take this wager. >>
I get the gist of what your saying but....
A money manager who 'only' tracked the S&P 500 from 2009-2014 is not an idiot.
Also I don't think its a fair comparison of coins and stocks at all.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
If the same person put his 5 MM with the biggest idiot money manager who only tracked the S&P 500 index, he now has 10.5 MM.
I don't think biggest idiot money manager invests in the S&P Index.
LINK
In the end, we can enjoy our coins, learn about them, and appreciate them for their history and aesthetics. I bet Sunnywood/Simpson/TDN/Gardner/and others all have greatly enjoyed their coins. That enjoyment is worth a lot in my eyes. Stock certificates and hoping people at the helm of companies make the "right" decisions in a highly global, politically influenced, tumultuous world don't carry nearly the same enjoyment to me.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"