"Gold IMO has really NEVER been a store of value."
It is good to have an opinion.
Interesting thing about those little gold thingies is that they don't get shut out while the bond holders get paid, they don't go belly up like some of the banks or require bail-outs and they are never worth nothing unlike some of the paper assets that people spend good cash for. I'm not knocking paper assets, got some myself and everyone should have some but when the Chinese or Russians come looking for their treasuries, all those paper assets might be just paper, unlike gold. The little gold thingies are kind of like little pocket rockets...you just pull them out, set them on the counter and get cash, just as it has always been...no paper, no boogie woogie, no bs, just metal and cash...very simple equation.
<< <i>Gold has value because humans placed a value on it. Why, thats anyones guess. Because it helps guys get laid?
Gold in 2000 $270. Gold today $1300.
Guess the store of value has once again failed.
Acre of land in Florida in 2000, $5000, today, $20,000.
1 share on Union Pacific Railroad in 2000 was $8, now $100.
Gold isnt special, its just another asset class. >>
Everything you said above indicates that gold and most every form of assets have a value determined by humans. Agreed. My comments were directed towards those claiming the complete "uselessness" and "commonness" of gold....yet it hasn't been worth less than $300/oz over the past 35 years. If I have to pay $1300/oz for something, I don't see how that's common. Dirt, wood chips, manure, and hay are all much more common, and for that reason cost much less. How much effort is required to produce an oz of wood chips or cow manure? Certainly not $1300 or even $300 worth of effort. I can understand gold at $1300/oz a lot easier than paying a CEO or professional baseball player $10-$20 MILL annual salary.
It's not that pay is declining, it is its purchasing power that is declining. This is why real income (measured for inflation) is declining while the income earner is seeing no reduction in his paycheck. Inflation - truely a hidden tax.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Gold has value because humans placed a value on it. Why, thats anyones guess. Because it helps guys get laid? >>
The diamond is a much better example of a nearly worthless pretty rock. Several industrial uses in very low grades, but a $6000 1 carat diamond has no connection to that. And at $30,000 per gram, vs $50 a gram for gold, there is no comparison in cost/value to gold. Except of course, it has gotten many a man out of serious trouble and back off the sofa.
Baseball, why not post on a diamond forum about how naïve the members are? You have a much more cogent argument there.
<< <i> the income earner is seeing no reduction in his paycheck
which income earner are we talking about? some "average" one in general? mean, median, and mode all mean different things to statisticians.
or are you referring to some stereotypic "typical" American? is there such a thing? >>
The one who is not getting paid less than he was a year ago to do the same job - most of America.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>They are not your deposits, they belong to the bank. You made a loan to them that they promise to pay back. And in small print: if they are able to do so. >>
Of course they do. My local bank pays 3% interest of deposits up to $15k. You can earn $450/year in interest. Not much but better than most interest bearing accounts these days. >>
Double check, more likely .3 percent. They are your deposits until they are not. >>
Actually it's 3.01%. >>
Your bank pays an interest rate of 3.01% for deposits UP TO 15K??? Pray tell, what bank is that?? >>
It's American Trust in Iowa. One of those offers where you have to make X number of transactions per month (in this case 12) with the bank issued debit/credit card. Another bonus is 1% cashback when you use the card for a "credit" transaction. Many banks run similar offers but this is one of the best I have seen.
I like gold as financial insurance. Anything else that comes with it is a bonus.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i> Land is not an eternal "store of value" since it can be taken from you (just like anything else). I've seen my local towns and state confiscate people's property under eminent domain laws. These days though, you can just take property under the threat of national security risks, rico, suspicion, etc. The irony of those eminent domain confiscations were that the properties were never used for their expected purpose and now sit unused, some of them being a blight to the community. Whatever you think you own as the whim of your government. They helped to create the conditions where you acquired it (or so they think) and they can just as easily take it back. >>
Thank you RR. I typed out a response just like this but then didn't bother posting. Just to add, you can never really own land anymore since you have to pay property taxes on it. Have financial trouble and can't pay your taxes, hello tax lien.
<< <i>Ask the Jews or Egyptians or romans or the Germans if gold can be taken.
Land is much more useful than gold, after all where does gold come from?
And share of stock represents ownership of a company that produces products and employs people thus contributing to society and the economy.
How well did gold store value for 1/3 of your life? >>
Yes. And they took took their land, art, antiques, and sometimes lives as well. How were any of those better than the other when all were taken? And they can take your stock too. Hey, they did that to me in 2002 now that I think about it. Cost me $50,000 out of my 401K. Those were 5,000 company shares who were employing >10,000 people around the country, Fortune 500, and contributing to the society and community in a big way sports venues like the LA Forum, water parks, airport fuel and food services, purified water services, food companies, waste to energy processing plants, etc.). They went bankrupt in 2001. Oops! Reorganized in 2003 and all previous shares were declared worthless. Gold and silver were sure a better store of value than that stock....lol. But, the "satisfaction" of knowing my shares helped the nation for my first 12 years of company employment provided me with much more satisfaction that the mere dollar value of those shares. I got to see capitalism work real close up.
Is there anyone here that stored a significant pile of gold for at least 1/3 (33%) of their life? I'm at 20% "life" on my first purchases made in 2002. Like anything else, it depends on what 1/3 of your life you owned any particular asset for. Coins did very well for me on the 1/3 of my life from 1975-1990. I was also smart enough not buy anything from 1979-1981. I owned a bunch of quality stocks from 1966-1987. That was over 1/2 my life. Those stocks at best broke even in that time frame. If you ask about the 1966-1982 "58% of my life window," stocks were one of the worst things that ever happened to me. They literally stunk up the joint. Even gold did better in that window ($35 to $300). Oh, to have been borne a late baby-boomer in 1962-1964 and only known a booming stock market for my adult life.
Gold comes from the land? Not according to Baseball above. It comes from the earth's molten core (land?) in nearly unlimited quantities. And also from seawater and asteroids (my input). I can't call any of those "land." The gold that come from the surface land was the easy pickings collected up until modern mining techniques. 10,000 ft up in the mountains or 10,000 ft in an underground cave are not most people's perception of what "land" is. Technically it is though. That earth's molten core is probably directly under ALL of the earth's surface. Bet there would be a lot of squabbles on who owns the "land" mineral/gold rights to the core.
They can take your land , or they can let you think you own it and tax you on it. They can take your stocks or render them worthless . Yes they can take your gold from you at gunpoint for that matter. Gold has intrinsic value though and as long as you can run with some in your pocket you can start anew somewhere else.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
We saw that happen in 2008. The big banks all would have blown up if not for govt backing and the FASB changing their stance on how banks were to value their otc derivatives (they chose the "pick any number you like" method). Can I choose that method for my taxes or mortgage?
Kane goes on to say that it is “shameful” for government officials to suggest that bank bailouts were good deals for taxpayers. Kane writes: “On balance, the bailouts transferred wealth and economic opportunity from ordinary taxpayers to much higher-income stakeholders in TBTF firms. Ordinary citizens understand that this is unfair and officials that deny the unfairness undermine confidence in the integrity of economic policymaking going forward.”
It's also ludicrous to believe that the big banks, Fannie and Freddie, etc. all paid back their TARP bailouts, and that we the people "made money" on this deal. But that's how it is now recorded in the public record.
<< <i>They are not your deposits, they belong to the bank. You made a loan to them that they promise to pay back. And in small print: if they are able to do so. >>
Of course they do. My local bank pays 3% interest of deposits up to $15k. You can earn $450/year in interest. Not much but better than most interest bearing accounts these days. >>
Double check, more likely .3 percent. They are your deposits until they are not. >>
Actually it's 3.01%. >>
Your bank pays an interest rate of 3.01% for deposits UP TO 15K??? Pray tell, what bank is that?? >>
It's American Trust in Iowa. One of those offers where you have to make X number of transactions per month (in this case 12) with the bank issued debit/credit card. Another bonus is 1% cashback when you use the card for a "credit" transaction. Many banks run similar offers but this is one of the best I have seen. >>
Gee .. you bank pays 1% more than my credit union. NARFEPremier FCU pays 2% on their checking account with almost the same requirements. BTW there are a number of financial institutions who offer a similar product, whether it's a local bank or credit union.
Baseball, my hat of to you. You hit the nail on the head with your description and valuation of that yellow rock that so many forumites worship as a potential 2d coming.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Previous RedTiger thread about income and asset stratification in America, in which the topics zoom from the general to the specific and back again. TTT to save a lot of time and effort typing in the new thread, have decided to spend more of the day outside in the sunshine
The level of underlying angst on this board is such that the vast majority of the "true believers" that know "they"(trust me, it's a long list) are out to get them, see themselves as much more "realistic" than they really are, imo. So much so that a seemingly well adjusted, well reasoned, non hyperbolic and generally positive world such as Baleyville, is thought of as an anomaly, maybe even considered a dangerous utopia by some here, who apparently live in Bartertown. at least there is no Fed there ;~
Screw that.....I choose Baleyville, over Bartertown everyday of the week.
The level of underlying angst on this board is such that the vast majority of the "true believers" that know "they"(trust me, it's a long list) are out to get them, see themselves as much more "realistic" than they really are, imo. So much so that a seemingly well adjusted, well reasoned, non hyperbolic and generally positive world such as Baleyville, is thought of as an anomaly, maybe even considered a dangerous utopia by some here, who apparently live in Bartertown. at least there is no Fed there ;~
Screw that.....I choose Baleyville, over Bartertown everyday of the week.
Because in reality, "they" are us. >>
Add me to that list. Fortunately, the apocalyptic scenarios preached by some for the last several years, turned out to be groundless, as most usually are.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>Add me to that list. Fortunately, the apocalyptic scenarios preached by some for the last several years, turned out to be groundless, as most usually are. >>
You can wait for apocalypse if you you're ready to wait as the millennia pass. What isn't very far off (1-5 years) is another accounting for the identical financial/monetary conditions that existed back in 2006-2008. Rather than groundless, I'd call it inevitable. The only difference is that since then the FED has pumped up their "assets" by >$3 TRILL, an unheard of amount, a large band aid, though still not big enough or long-lasting. None of the problems from 2008 have been resolved, only delayed. How it plays out will be quite impactful to most people. Interest rates will eventually rise which will place nearly $1 Quadrillion in otc derivatives at risk. The FED will need many more hands and fingers to plug leaks in the dike. Dodd-Frank didn't fix any of this. Neither did the FED's over-leveraged balance sheet. Neither did removing loop holes from consumer bankruptcy laws and putting taxpayers on the hook for TBTF bank's otc derivative's failures. The shakeout won't be apocalyptic, after all, we're talking about mostly paper assets and digi-dollars that mostly exist in cyber-space. It won't be a walk in the park either.
The biggest problem in 2008 was people paying 10x+ their income with no equity stake. That has certainly been corrected. Equity in real estate has been accumulating and companies have bolstered their balance sheet and increased efficiency, productivity and profitability.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left.
<< <i>The biggest problem in 2008 was people paying 10x+ their income with no equity stake. That has certainly been corrected. Equity in real estate has been accumulating and companies have bolstered their balance sheet and increased efficiency, productivity and profitability.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left. >>
You just responded with the same "derivative's nonsense" as it was $3-$7 TRILL in MBS derivative's failure (and $30 TRILL in otc CDS failures) that tanked the system in 2008. On the surface it appears that the MBS issues have been generally washed out. So that's a plus. Unfortunately, that was only the MBS on the US which represented about 1/2% of the world's otc derivatives. Have to wonder if MBS leverage has now been applied to the recently hot housing markets in Canada and China? And what about the remaining half of the CDS ($30 TRILL) and 100% of the interest rate swaps ($900 TRILL) that still remain? I would be the first to agree that if interest rates can be kept near zero for years to come that the IRswaps bomb can be kept on the perpetual timer. We still have TBTF banks paying 30X to 100X their incomes while holding minimal equity stakes in otc derivatives. Derivative's "nonsense" caused the banking crisis of 2007-2009. It will probably cause the next one as well. Now that J6P's "reign of terror" in buying housing he couldn't afford has been somewhat managed....it's time to address the TBTF banks on their otc derivative's buying habits of the past 10-15 years.
The biggest problem in 2008 was people paying 10x+ their income with no equity stake. That has certainly been corrected.
You mean, to buy real estate? Apparently there are similar problems with auto finance and income right now, and there is a student loan problem as well. You and I both know that these problems will be resolved with taxpayer money. Which leads us right back to the unsustainable debt load problem. And unfunded liabilities, let's not forget unfunded liabilities that are going to be claimed, beginning yesterday. Something's got to give, and it will - no doubt.
Equity in real estate has been accumulating and companies have bolstered their balance sheet and increased efficiency, productivity and profitability.
Equity in real estate has indeed been accumulating at my house. I haven't been following company balance sheets, but I doubt that efficiency and productivity have been strong lately. Most companies held back on plowing money back into plant & equipment due to the uncertainties of obamacare (which still exist). Hard to get improvements of that sort without actually plowing $$ into it. Profitability, maybe so. Maybe not. Stock prices aren't the same thing as profitability. Let's see what happens when the punchbowl isn't refilled.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left.
Oh, I forgot to mention the financial derivatives. Why do you think that they just removed the restrictions from banking on the use of leverage and trading in financial derivatives? Why do you think they just made bank account holders financially responsible for all bank losses? If you can explain how these are positive developments for most people who work for a living and how it helps anyone other than the bankers, I will be interested in knowing something new.
All they are doing now is ramping up the existing debt-based system for another go-round, and instead of 47% of the population on government assistance, the next round will set up a 53% or so dependency rate as more people fall through the cracks. This really isn't a pretty case study, and the bankers & Congress are in bed together all the way.
It's a weird thing to create an IOU and then to call it "money". It really doesn't make sense. It's a debt instrument that will have to be repaid, with interest. Weird.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
<< <i>I think comments like your's illustrate the complete naivety of the metal bulls. Gold IMO has really NEVER been a store of value. >>
Gold in 2000 $270. Gold today $1300.
Guess the store of value has once again failed.
Gold in 2000 $270. Gold today $1300.
Guess the store of value has once again failed.
Acre of land in Florida in 2000, $5000, today, $20,000.
1 share on Union Pacific Railroad in 2000 was $8, now $100.
Gold isnt special, its just another asset class.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
It is good to have an opinion.
Interesting thing about those little gold thingies is that they don't get shut out while the bond holders get paid, they don't go belly up like some of the banks or require bail-outs and they are never worth nothing unlike some of the paper assets that people spend good cash for. I'm not knocking paper assets, got some myself and everyone should have some but when the Chinese or Russians come looking for their treasuries, all those paper assets might be just paper, unlike gold. The little gold thingies are kind of like little pocket rockets...you just pull them out, set them on the counter and get cash, just as it has always been...no paper, no boogie woogie, no bs, just metal and cash...very simple equation.
Got GOLD?
<< <i>Gold has value because humans placed a value on it. Why, thats anyones guess. Because it helps guys get laid?
Gold in 2000 $270. Gold today $1300.
Guess the store of value has once again failed.
Acre of land in Florida in 2000, $5000, today, $20,000.
1 share on Union Pacific Railroad in 2000 was $8, now $100.
Gold isnt special, its just another asset class. >>
Everything you said above indicates that gold and most every form of assets have a value determined by humans. Agreed. My comments were directed towards those claiming the complete "uselessness" and "commonness"
of gold....yet it hasn't been worth less than $300/oz over the past 35 years. If I have to pay $1300/oz for something, I don't see how that's common. Dirt, wood chips, manure, and hay are all much more common, and for
that reason cost much less. How much effort is required to produce an oz of wood chips or cow manure? Certainly not $1300 or even $300 worth of effort. I can understand gold at $1300/oz a lot easier than paying a CEO
or professional baseball player $10-$20 MILL annual salary.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Gold has value because humans placed a value on it. Why, thats anyones guess. Because it helps guys get laid? >>
The diamond is a much better example of a nearly worthless pretty rock. Several industrial uses in very low grades, but a $6000 1 carat diamond has no connection to that. And at $30,000 per gram, vs $50 a gram for gold, there is no comparison in cost/value to gold. Except of course, it has gotten many a man out of serious trouble and back off the sofa.
Baseball, why not post on a diamond forum about how naïve the members are? You have a much more cogent argument there.
Here, you are striking out!
which income earner are we talking about? some "average" one in general? mean, median, and mode all mean different things to statisticians.
or are you referring to some stereotypic "typical" American? is there such a thing?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i> the income earner is seeing no reduction in his paycheck
which income earner are we talking about? some "average" one in general? mean, median, and mode all mean different things to statisticians.
or are you referring to some stereotypic "typical" American? is there such a thing? >>
The one who is not getting paid less than he was a year ago to do the same job - most of America.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>They are not your deposits, they belong to the bank. You made a loan to them that they promise to pay back. And in small print: if they are able to do so.
Of course they do. My local bank pays 3% interest of deposits up to $15k. You can earn $450/year in interest. Not much but better than most interest bearing accounts these days. >>
Double check, more likely .3 percent. They are your deposits until they are not. >>
Actually it's 3.01%.
Your bank pays an interest rate of 3.01% for deposits UP TO 15K??? Pray tell, what bank is that?? >>
It's American Trust in Iowa. One of those offers where you have to make X number of transactions per month (in this case 12) with the bank issued debit/credit card. Another bonus is 1% cashback when you use the card for a "credit" transaction. Many banks run similar offers but this is one of the best I have seen.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i> Land is not an eternal "store of value" since it can be taken from you (just like anything else). I've seen my local towns and state confiscate people's property under eminent domain laws. These days though, you can just take property under the threat of national security risks, rico, suspicion, etc. The irony of those eminent domain confiscations were that the properties were never used for their expected purpose and now sit unused, some of them being a blight to the community. Whatever you think you own as the whim of your government. They helped to create the conditions where you acquired it (or so they think) and they can just as easily take it back. >>
Thank you RR. I typed out a response just like this but then didn't bother posting. Just to add, you can never really own land anymore since you have to pay property taxes on it. Have financial trouble and can't pay your taxes, hello tax lien.
Land is much more useful than gold, after all where does gold come from?
And share of stock represents ownership of a company that produces products and employs people thus contributing to society and the economy.
How well did gold store value for 1/3 of your life?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Ask the Jews or Egyptians or romans or the Germans
Land is much more useful than gold, after all where does gold come from?
And share of stock represents ownership of a company that produces products and employs people thus contributing to society and the economy.
How well did gold store value for 1/3 of your life? >>
Yes. And they took took their land, art, antiques, and sometimes lives as well. How were any of those better than the other when all were taken? And they can take your stock too. Hey, they did that to me in 2002 now that I think about it. Cost me $50,000 out of my 401K. Those were 5,000 company shares who were employing >10,000 people around the country, Fortune 500, and contributing to the society and community in a big way sports venues like the LA Forum, water parks, airport fuel and food services, purified water services, food companies, waste to energy processing plants, etc.). They went bankrupt in 2001. Oops! Reorganized in 2003 and all previous shares were declared worthless. Gold and silver were sure a better store of value than that stock....lol. But, the "satisfaction" of knowing my shares helped the nation for my first 12 years of company employment provided me with much more satisfaction that the mere dollar value of those shares. I got to see capitalism work real close up.
Is there anyone here that stored a significant pile of gold for at least 1/3 (33%) of their life? I'm at 20% "life" on my first purchases made in 2002. Like anything else, it depends on what 1/3 of your life you owned any particular asset for. Coins did very well for me on the 1/3 of my life from 1975-1990. I was also smart enough not buy anything from 1979-1981. I owned a bunch of quality stocks from 1966-1987. That was over 1/2 my life. Those stocks at best broke even in that time frame. If you ask about the 1966-1982 "58% of my life window," stocks were one of the worst things that ever happened to me. They literally stunk up the joint. Even gold did better in that window ($35 to $300). Oh, to have been borne a late baby-boomer in 1962-1964 and only known a booming stock market for my adult life.
Gold comes from the land? Not according to Baseball above. It comes from the earth's molten core (land?) in nearly unlimited quantities. And also from seawater and asteroids (my input). I can't call any of those "land." The gold that come from the surface land was the easy pickings collected up until modern mining techniques. 10,000 ft up in the mountains or 10,000 ft in an underground cave are not most people's perception of what "land" is. Technically it is though. That earth's molten core is probably directly under ALL of the earth's surface. Bet there would be a lot of squabbles on who owns the "land" mineral/gold rights to the core.
They can take your land , or they can let you think you own it and tax you on it. They can take your stocks or render them worthless . Yes they can take your gold from you at gunpoint for that matter. Gold has intrinsic value though and as long as you can run with some in your pocket you can start anew somewhere else.
Stocks and land won't do that for you.
And, on the topic of banks. . . this just in:
Senate Bombshell Testimony Today: Citigroup and Bank of America Stock Worthless Without Implied Government Guarantees
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Never forget - they can even take you.
And, on the topic of banks. . . this just in:
Senate Bombshell Testimony Today: Citigroup and Bank of America Stock Worthless Without Implied Government Guarantees >>
We saw that happen in 2008. The big banks all would have blown up if not for govt backing and the FASB changing their stance on how banks were to value their otc derivatives (they chose the "pick any number you like" method). Can I choose that method for my taxes or mortgage?
Kane goes on to say that it is “shameful” for government officials to suggest that bank bailouts were good deals for taxpayers. Kane writes: “On balance, the bailouts transferred wealth and economic opportunity from ordinary taxpayers to much higher-income stakeholders in TBTF firms. Ordinary citizens understand that this is unfair and officials that deny the unfairness undermine confidence in the integrity of economic policymaking going forward.”
It's also ludicrous to believe that the big banks, Fannie and Freddie, etc. all paid back their TARP bailouts, and that we the people "made money" on this deal. But that's how it is now recorded in the public record.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>They are not your deposits, they belong to the bank. You made a loan to them that they promise to pay back. And in small print: if they are able to do so.
Of course they do. My local bank pays 3% interest of deposits up to $15k. You can earn $450/year in interest. Not much but better than most interest bearing accounts these days. >>
Double check, more likely .3 percent. They are your deposits until they are not. >>
Actually it's 3.01%.
Your bank pays an interest rate of 3.01% for deposits UP TO 15K??? Pray tell, what bank is that?? >>
It's American Trust in Iowa. One of those offers where you have to make X number of transactions per month (in this case 12) with the bank issued debit/credit card. Another bonus is 1% cashback when you use the card for a "credit" transaction. Many banks run similar offers but this is one of the best I have seen. >>
Gee .. you bank pays 1% more than my credit union. NARFEPremier FCU pays 2% on their checking account with almost the same requirements. BTW there are a number of financial institutions who offer a similar product, whether it's a local bank or credit union.
Baseball, my hat of to you. You hit the nail on the head with your description and valuation of that yellow rock that so many forumites worship as a potential 2d coming.
TTT to save a lot of time and effort typing in the new thread, have decided to spend more of the day outside in the sunshine
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The level of underlying angst on this board is such that the vast majority of the "true believers" that know "they"(trust me, it's a long list) are out to get them, see themselves as much more "realistic" than they really are, imo. So much so that a seemingly well adjusted, well reasoned, non hyperbolic and generally positive world such as Baleyville, is thought of as an anomaly, maybe even considered a dangerous utopia by some here, who apparently live in Bartertown. at least there is no Fed there ;~
Screw that.....I choose Baleyville, over Bartertown everyday of the week.
Because in reality, "they" are us.
<< <i>Days out in the sunshine...a very good idea
The level of underlying angst on this board is such that the vast majority of the "true believers" that know "they"(trust me, it's a long list) are out to get them, see themselves as much more "realistic" than they really are, imo. So much so that a seemingly well adjusted, well reasoned, non hyperbolic and generally positive world such as Baleyville, is thought of as an anomaly, maybe even considered a dangerous utopia by some here, who apparently live in Bartertown. at least there is no Fed there ;~
Screw that.....I choose Baleyville, over Bartertown everyday of the week.
Because in reality, "they" are us. >>
Add me to that list.
Fortunately, the apocalyptic scenarios preached by some for the last several years, turned out to be groundless, as most usually are.
<< <i>Add me to that list. Fortunately, the apocalyptic scenarios preached by some for the last several years, turned out to be groundless, as most usually are. >>
You can wait for apocalypse if you you're ready to wait as the millennia pass. What isn't very far off (1-5 years) is another accounting for the identical financial/monetary conditions that existed back in 2006-2008. Rather than groundless, I'd call it inevitable. The only difference is that since then the FED has pumped up their "assets" by >$3 TRILL, an unheard of amount, a large band aid, though still not big enough or long-lasting. None of the problems from 2008 have been resolved, only delayed. How it plays out will be quite impactful to most people. Interest rates will eventually rise which will place nearly $1 Quadrillion in otc derivatives at risk. The FED will need many more hands and fingers to plug leaks in the dike. Dodd-Frank didn't fix any of this. Neither did the FED's over-leveraged balance sheet. Neither did removing loop holes from consumer bankruptcy laws and putting taxpayers on the hook for TBTF bank's otc derivative's failures. The shakeout won't be apocalyptic, after all, we're talking about mostly paper assets and digi-dollars that mostly exist in cyber-space. It won't be a walk in the park either.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>The biggest problem in 2008 was people paying 10x+ their income with no equity stake. That has certainly been corrected. Equity in real estate has been accumulating and companies have bolstered their balance sheet and increased efficiency, productivity and profitability.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left. >>
You just responded with the same "derivative's nonsense" as it was $3-$7 TRILL in MBS derivative's failure (and $30 TRILL in otc CDS failures) that tanked the system in 2008. On the surface it appears that the MBS issues have been generally washed out. So that's a plus. Unfortunately, that was only the MBS on the US which represented about 1/2% of the world's otc derivatives. Have to wonder if MBS leverage has now been applied to the recently hot housing markets in Canada and China? And what about the remaining half of the CDS ($30 TRILL) and 100% of the interest rate swaps ($900 TRILL) that still remain? I would be the first to agree that if interest rates can be kept near zero for years to come that the IRswaps bomb can be kept on the perpetual timer. We still have TBTF banks paying 30X to 100X their incomes while holding minimal equity stakes in otc derivatives. Derivative's "nonsense" caused the banking crisis of 2007-2009. It will probably cause the next one as well. Now that J6P's "reign of terror" in buying housing he couldn't afford has been somewhat managed....it's time to address the TBTF banks on their otc derivative's buying habits of the past 10-15 years.
You mean, to buy real estate? Apparently there are similar problems with auto finance and income right now, and there is a student loan problem as well. You and I both know that these problems will be resolved with taxpayer money. Which leads us right back to the unsustainable debt load problem. And unfunded liabilities, let's not forget unfunded liabilities that are going to be claimed, beginning yesterday. Something's got to give, and it will - no doubt.
Equity in real estate has been accumulating and companies have bolstered their balance sheet and increased efficiency, productivity and profitability.
Equity in real estate has indeed been accumulating at my house. I haven't been following company balance sheets, but I doubt that efficiency and productivity have been strong lately. Most companies held back on plowing money back into plant & equipment due to the uncertainties of obamacare (which still exist). Hard to get improvements of that sort without actually plowing $$ into it. Profitability, maybe so. Maybe not. Stock prices aren't the same thing as profitability. Let's see what happens when the punchbowl isn't refilled.
Now I know you will respond about some derivative nonsense, because that's all the financial disaster proponents have left.
Oh, I forgot to mention the financial derivatives. Why do you think that they just removed the restrictions from banking on the use of leverage and trading in financial derivatives? Why do you think they just made bank account holders financially responsible for all bank losses? If you can explain how these are positive developments for most people who work for a living and how it helps anyone other than the bankers, I will be interested in knowing something new.
All they are doing now is ramping up the existing debt-based system for another go-round, and instead of 47% of the population on government assistance, the next round will set up a 53% or so dependency rate as more people fall through the cracks. This really isn't a pretty case study, and the bankers & Congress are in bed together all the way.
It's a weird thing to create an IOU and then to call it "money". It really doesn't make sense. It's a debt instrument that will have to be repaid, with interest. Weird.
I knew it would happen.