Semi-retired pastimes; or, Adventures With Plastic
Stork
Posts: 5,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
Okay, second try with this post, the first was eaten by an inadvertent smack on the 'tab' button. I had a bit of fun and it relates to a few posts recently about NGC vs PCGS. My first and foremost thought is about the coin, but the slabs and the TPG have some definite benefits. As for the PCGS vs. NGC thing...No blanket statements from me. Those two I take at face value (while looking at the coin of course) and do a little pondering with anyone else (or a LOT of pondering as the case may be).
First of all I would like to say that I have been very happy with the presence of the third party graders. My adult interest in coins evolved while I was overseas for a significant portion of time, and if not overseas, at least not with the ability to establish/cultivate long term relationships with dealers. Not only that, my tastes in coinage is not exactly the common fodder for the local B&M. Don't get me wrong, I have met (either electronically or in the flesh) MANY helpful dealers and sellers who I would trust quite a bit to send me a 'good' coin on their word it was a 'good' coin. In fact, I have one in the mail right now with a dealer who is sending it without so much as a picture. I am 90% sure I will like it and 100% if I don't I can return it with no hard feelings.
HOWEVER as the vast majority of my purchases have been via photos I am VERY grateful that my most significant buys were in slabbed coins. In fact the only bad burn I have is a yen coin in a rare date I bought raw from a dealer at Baltimore years ago. As I learned more I became 99.9% sure it was a counterfeit, and that last .1% was wishful thinking because it really would have been a great coin to own. It had been inhabiting a place in my Japan Dansco but on a lark I decided to send it in with a submission. Naturally it was fake. Sigh. I'll probably stick it back in the album as a placeholder, but that was a BIG mistake. One I should not have made given my level of expertise at the time, and I'd gone to that show with the plan to only buy slabbed coins if they cost over $50. Oops.
In any case, my learning experiences basically are by trial/error and in isolation as I am generally not surrounded by coin people. The PCGS board is the closest thing I had to real interactions for several years! Or, those times I did have a few stores nearby, I did not have time in 'real time' to hang out. So, the TPG allowed me to make buys, practice out collecting tastes and whatnot with a bit of an insurance policy. Plus I like the degree of protection they allow. Much as I love my Japan Dansco, I will not be setting an MS-68 silver coin older than me in it. Nopers. I get to put very nice coins in there, but ones that have a little 'character' we'll just say.
One of the problems buying online is of course the photography. Photos can be very limited in their ability to show features, and can hide a plethora of issues. So, the TPG were very helpful in allowing me to continue to pursue the hobby while keeping things a little less hairy.
So, now all that is said, I must admit I do follow the plastic discussions with a fair amount of amusement. I like to think OF COURSE I collect the coins, but the plastic has been my security blanket, my 'genuine' guarantee (okay I know there are occasional mistakes, but for the most part this is good) and I do enjoy the protection from a slab. I have a distinct preference for PCGS (of course) and NGC. I would give an ANACS coin a fair shot and generally ICG too as long as I wasn't doing the modern bullion thing. Anything else I would cast a wary eye and sometimes feel like I was pretty lucky to make a score if I spotted something good.
For all I am a fan and an end-user for PCGS I am not someone who has submitting privileges. I do have them over at NGC from back when an ANA member (since lapsed
) could do direct submissions--probably around 4 in 10 years. My first ever attempt at submitting coins was when I lived in Japan and happened to be Hawaii during a coin show. ANACS was there so I gave them a couple coins back in the day, including the Greek one mentioned below. And, that was pretty much the extent of my sending coins in.
With my recent desire to sell a few things (plus finding a registry set on NGC to start...though now I'm doing more as they added some Japanese) and the recent conversations about slabs I must confess I decided to have a little fun with slabs. Now, because I only have the NGC privileges that is where I sent the vast majority. I sent 2 coins to ANACS because they were US gold and the likelihood of me getting to a 5 coin minimum anytime soon for NGC was slim to none. So, here are my adventures:
PCI 1907 $2.5 US MS-63 --> ANACS AU-58
NAS (Numismatic Authentication Company???!!) $2.5 US MS-66 --> ANACS AU-58.
I'd cracked both these out and had bought for XF/AU money, so all was good.
ANACS small slab (from Hawaii'n submission) Greece 1910 1 D MS-63 --> MS-63
ANACS small slab (ebay buy) Italy 1950 10L MS-66 --> MS-65
ANACS yellow slab (ebay or NEN) Japan 1898 20 sen MS-64 --> MS-65
PCI 5 sen 1938 MS-68 (early ebay buy) --> MS-65 (sent as a crackout)
PCGS Japan 50 sen MS-66 ---> MS-66
PCGS Japan 50 sen MS-66 ---> MS-66
PCGS (old green slab) Italy Genoa AU-58 --> MS-62 (I really saw no wear and think the new grade is far more accurate)
PCGS Albania 10 Q 66RB -->66RB
PCGS Albania 1 Fr 66 --> DNC
PCGS Albania 2 Fr 66 --> 66
NNC Poland 1971 10 z MS-67 --> MS-64 (cracked out)
NNC Fr Indo China 5 cent MS-66 --> MS-66 (sent as a crackout)
I had a couple of St. Pierre/Miquelons in MS-67/68 NNC slabs but they weren't even worth sending. No shot at being more than a 63 and that would have been a good day. Not that all of these were 'worth' it in a financial sense.
In any case, all fun and interestingly enough PCGS most crossed at grade (one upgrade and one DNC). ANACS was more of a surprise with an up, a down and a cross at grade. PCI was what I expected and the only thing surprising about NNC was that there was a decent Indo China coin in one of the slabs.
So there you go...not a large sample size, but pretty much confirms my suspicion that I like PCGS and NGC (and even ANACS) for buying coins. I only slabbed NGC because I could basically. I know from listening to others that there are some strengths/weakness perceived for both, but oh well. Who knows, someday I might send the coins the other way...once I get submitting privileges and have even more time on my hands!
Cathy
First of all I would like to say that I have been very happy with the presence of the third party graders. My adult interest in coins evolved while I was overseas for a significant portion of time, and if not overseas, at least not with the ability to establish/cultivate long term relationships with dealers. Not only that, my tastes in coinage is not exactly the common fodder for the local B&M. Don't get me wrong, I have met (either electronically or in the flesh) MANY helpful dealers and sellers who I would trust quite a bit to send me a 'good' coin on their word it was a 'good' coin. In fact, I have one in the mail right now with a dealer who is sending it without so much as a picture. I am 90% sure I will like it and 100% if I don't I can return it with no hard feelings.
HOWEVER as the vast majority of my purchases have been via photos I am VERY grateful that my most significant buys were in slabbed coins. In fact the only bad burn I have is a yen coin in a rare date I bought raw from a dealer at Baltimore years ago. As I learned more I became 99.9% sure it was a counterfeit, and that last .1% was wishful thinking because it really would have been a great coin to own. It had been inhabiting a place in my Japan Dansco but on a lark I decided to send it in with a submission. Naturally it was fake. Sigh. I'll probably stick it back in the album as a placeholder, but that was a BIG mistake. One I should not have made given my level of expertise at the time, and I'd gone to that show with the plan to only buy slabbed coins if they cost over $50. Oops.
In any case, my learning experiences basically are by trial/error and in isolation as I am generally not surrounded by coin people. The PCGS board is the closest thing I had to real interactions for several years! Or, those times I did have a few stores nearby, I did not have time in 'real time' to hang out. So, the TPG allowed me to make buys, practice out collecting tastes and whatnot with a bit of an insurance policy. Plus I like the degree of protection they allow. Much as I love my Japan Dansco, I will not be setting an MS-68 silver coin older than me in it. Nopers. I get to put very nice coins in there, but ones that have a little 'character' we'll just say.
One of the problems buying online is of course the photography. Photos can be very limited in their ability to show features, and can hide a plethora of issues. So, the TPG were very helpful in allowing me to continue to pursue the hobby while keeping things a little less hairy.
So, now all that is said, I must admit I do follow the plastic discussions with a fair amount of amusement. I like to think OF COURSE I collect the coins, but the plastic has been my security blanket, my 'genuine' guarantee (okay I know there are occasional mistakes, but for the most part this is good) and I do enjoy the protection from a slab. I have a distinct preference for PCGS (of course) and NGC. I would give an ANACS coin a fair shot and generally ICG too as long as I wasn't doing the modern bullion thing. Anything else I would cast a wary eye and sometimes feel like I was pretty lucky to make a score if I spotted something good.
For all I am a fan and an end-user for PCGS I am not someone who has submitting privileges. I do have them over at NGC from back when an ANA member (since lapsed
) could do direct submissions--probably around 4 in 10 years. My first ever attempt at submitting coins was when I lived in Japan and happened to be Hawaii during a coin show. ANACS was there so I gave them a couple coins back in the day, including the Greek one mentioned below. And, that was pretty much the extent of my sending coins in. With my recent desire to sell a few things (plus finding a registry set on NGC to start...though now I'm doing more as they added some Japanese) and the recent conversations about slabs I must confess I decided to have a little fun with slabs. Now, because I only have the NGC privileges that is where I sent the vast majority. I sent 2 coins to ANACS because they were US gold and the likelihood of me getting to a 5 coin minimum anytime soon for NGC was slim to none. So, here are my adventures:
PCI 1907 $2.5 US MS-63 --> ANACS AU-58
NAS (Numismatic Authentication Company???!!) $2.5 US MS-66 --> ANACS AU-58.
I'd cracked both these out and had bought for XF/AU money, so all was good.
ANACS small slab (from Hawaii'n submission) Greece 1910 1 D MS-63 --> MS-63
ANACS small slab (ebay buy) Italy 1950 10L MS-66 --> MS-65
ANACS yellow slab (ebay or NEN) Japan 1898 20 sen MS-64 --> MS-65
PCI 5 sen 1938 MS-68 (early ebay buy) --> MS-65 (sent as a crackout)
PCGS Japan 50 sen MS-66 ---> MS-66
PCGS Japan 50 sen MS-66 ---> MS-66
PCGS (old green slab) Italy Genoa AU-58 --> MS-62 (I really saw no wear and think the new grade is far more accurate)
PCGS Albania 10 Q 66RB -->66RB
PCGS Albania 1 Fr 66 --> DNC
PCGS Albania 2 Fr 66 --> 66
NNC Poland 1971 10 z MS-67 --> MS-64 (cracked out)
NNC Fr Indo China 5 cent MS-66 --> MS-66 (sent as a crackout)
I had a couple of St. Pierre/Miquelons in MS-67/68 NNC slabs but they weren't even worth sending. No shot at being more than a 63 and that would have been a good day. Not that all of these were 'worth' it in a financial sense.
In any case, all fun and interestingly enough PCGS most crossed at grade (one upgrade and one DNC). ANACS was more of a surprise with an up, a down and a cross at grade. PCI was what I expected and the only thing surprising about NNC was that there was a decent Indo China coin in one of the slabs.
So there you go...not a large sample size, but pretty much confirms my suspicion that I like PCGS and NGC (and even ANACS) for buying coins. I only slabbed NGC because I could basically. I know from listening to others that there are some strengths/weakness perceived for both, but oh well. Who knows, someday I might send the coins the other way...once I get submitting privileges and have even more time on my hands!
Cathy
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-Brandon
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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Do you remember who you bought the counterfeit Yen from? If they are still around and not shisters perhaps they will make you whole!
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>Do you remember who you bought the counterfeit Yen from? If they are still around and not shisters perhaps they will make you whole! >>
Definitely. Most of the world coin dealers whom I know at the Baltimore show would stand behind the authenticity of their raw coins. We do.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
Thanks for that write up Cathy.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I have a stack of receipts and old flips that need organizing, and there is a VERY slim chance that I could figure out who sold it. But this was something I bought at least 6 or 7 years ago (or more) though I can say it's not anyone I've seen in the last 5 years at least. Oddly I can remember the guys' face too. But not a name.
Anyway, I never considered it to be intentional...just a gently circulated appearing coin stuck in a case with a zillion other darkside coins. Now I could spot it, but back then not so much and I can see how it was overlooked. It was priced appropriately for what it appeared to be, not low balled to try and suck someone in looking for a rip.
Oh well, now I'll have to go through those receipts sooner than later. That is chore #32A on my list of things to do now that I have a bit more tIme for myself.
Cathy
ps, does anyone else hate typing on a tablet as much as I do?? Please excuse typos and autocorrect!