4SharpCorners Model?

shu4040

where do they obtain the presumably massive quantities need? Even if they receive favorable submissions, (which i do not), the volume of cards they have must be insane to produce so many 9s and 10s

PMKAY

<< <i>where do they obtain the presumably massive quantities need? Even if they receive favorable submissions, (which i do not), the volume of cards they have must be insane to produce so many 9s and 10s >>



I've wondered that as well. With the volumes they submit you would think they would be the ones immediately buying all the older unopened places like BBCE put up on their site but based on how many people here are buying that stuff, that doesn't seem to be the case.

tsalems1

I still say this company is/was part of the old Rotmans furniture in Worcester Ma.
There was no one else in the Mass area that had the inventory like Rotmans.
They may have sold everything off to someone local but the inventory I still think is from Rotmans

PMKAY

<< <i>I still say this company is/was part of the old Rotmans furniture in Worcester Ma.
There was no one else in the Mass area that had the inventory like Rotmans.
They may have sold everything off to someone local but the inventory I still think is from Rotmans >>



You lost me on this...

lawnmowerman

<< <i>

<< <i>I still say this company is/was part of the old Rotmans furniture in Worcester Ma.
There was no one else in the Mass area that had the inventory like Rotmans.
They may have sold everything off to someone local but the inventory I still think is from Rotmans >>



You lost me on this... >>



Me too

ashabby

I like 4 sharp and often wonder how they have the inventory they have and price

tsalems1

4sharp is located in Mass.

If you don't know about Rotmans in Worcester Mass from back in the day you won't know what I'm talking about.
Let's just say they had skids and skids of inventory

lawnmowerman

<< <i>4sharp is located in Mass.

If you don't know about Rotmans in Worcester Mass from back in the day you won't know what I'm talking about.
Let's just say they had skids and skids of inventory >>



Of furniture or cards?

tsalems1

<< <i>

<< <i>4sharp is located in Mass.

If you don't know about Rotmans in Worcester Mass from back in the day you won't know what I'm talking about.
Let's just say they had skids and skids of inventory >>



Of furniture or cards? >>



Cards lol

The furniture store was the front part of the building and the card store/warehouse was in the back.
They had their own supplies brand. They were the store if you needed anything.
They had volume of everything

lawnmowerman

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>4sharp is located in Mass.

If you don't know about Rotmans in Worcester Mass from back in the day you won't know what I'm talking about.
Let's just say they had skids and skids of inventory >>



Of furniture or cards? >>



Cards lol

The furniture store was the front part of the building and the card store/warehouse was in the back.
They had their own supplies brand. They were the store if you needed anything.
They had volume of everything >>



Weird setup to say the least lol

tsalems1

I remember i went there...
To get into the card store part of the building, you had to walk through part of the warehouse.
As you walked through, there were skids with unopened cases probably 6ft. High on both sides of the walkway leading to the store.
I remember being there at the store when the 1986 Topps traded was on fire with Canseco Clark and Bo
They pulled a box of 1000 cards of each out . .

mesapsa

I actually had contacted 4SC about a year ago wanting to apply for a job working there, wish I would have gone forward with it! It was working sorting all the cards to be sent to PSA/grading companies, I would have loved it but probably would have driven me crazy as I would want all their cards plus would have wanted to send my cards in for grading at the same time! LOL

It would have been interesting to work there to see how the operation works and where all the cards come from that they send in for grading. They must buy millions of raw cards, but from who???????

lawnmowerman

<< <i>I remember i went there...
To get into the card store part of the building, you had to walk through part of the warehouse.
As you walked through, there were skids with unopened cases probably 6ft. High on both sides of the walkway leading to the store.
I remember being there at the store when the 1986 Topps traded was on fire with Canseco Clark and Bo
They pulled a box of 1000 cards of each out . . >>



Can I ask you something? Is this heaven? No it's Massachusetts haha

tsalems1

Looking back on it....

It was heavan!

Showcases around the whole room with probably every Topps set
Unopened older wax
Just a massive inventory of everything

mesapsa

I would have gone nuts in that place! Like a kid in a candy store, I go crazy when I am around un-open wax boxes!! LOL

packCollector

they basically buy anything and everything that comes up for auction. they buy almost every high grade lot that comes through any auction house and they have a large bankroll so they can just buy it all and pay a premium because they save on the grading. they are the only one's doing it with the financial backing so it has worked. they started out and built their operation selling oddball crap 80's cards when they were hot for registries and such and made a killing then parlayed that to expand into vintage. the initial inventory may have been from rotmans but I know they were buying up all the closed card shop inventories in the area. they would go in with a cash offer and go back home with truckloads of stuff(similar to what bbcexchange is doing now ) buy they take it all because their model is volume so anything with a margin was of interest to them

tsalems1

They did not buy me out. I never heard about that. I had 1 of the largest stores in the area (but nothing compared to Rot man).
I sold most of my older inventory in the late 90's to Scoreboard when they were inserting vintage into their packs.

gemint

I've also heard they send employees around major card shows buying up all the high grade sets/lots they can get their hands on.

billwaltonsbeard

<< <i>I've also heard they send employees around major card shows buying up all the high grade sets/lots they can get their hands on. >>



I remember years ago reading somewhere here that they saw reps from 4SC roaming around a major card show on dealer day (before the show was opened to the public) buying up any nice looking sets they could find. I think it was then discussed how they were able to do that, since they weren't actually set up at the show.

dbcoin

I've heard they were spotted near the grassy knoll in Dallas too

Stingray

I have buying some 2008 Topps baseball from them and the next day after I buy, the have the same cards, different cert, up for sale. So they must have multiples of modern PSA 10s in inventory.

WalterSobchak

"Yeah, I think I'm ready to check out. I'll go with the box of 50 Bagwell rookies, the irregular wicker chair that's on clearance, and the '76 Bill Singer. No, not that one, the other one."

lawnmowerman

<< <i>I have buying some 2008 Topps baseball from them and the next day after I buy, the have the same cards, different cert, up for sale. So they must have multiples of modern PSA 10s in inventory. >>



I've noticed this too. I'm glad they usually post the better ones first.

packCollector

<< <i>They did not buy me out. >>



excuse me my literal, I will be more general that they bought up all the local inventories they could . And from there they exploited the registry craze before they moved to pre-80 stuff.





<< <i>saw reps from 4SC roaming around a major card show on dealer day >>



they used to go to the fort and would cart out every nice set on the floor on dealer day. I heard from reputable sources that were at the show that they would drop over 100k on that first day at the fort shows.

Gemyanks10

<< <i>I have buying some 2008 Topps baseball from them and the next day after I buy, the have the same cards, different cert, up for sale. So they must have multiples of modern PSA 10s in inventory. >>




I honestly don't think it applies to just modern either. I've bought many cards from early 80's baseball sets, and within the next day they had another one up and ready to sell. I know people's ideas of modern differ, but I don't consider anything pre-85 modern anymore.




<< <i> I've noticed this too. I'm glad they usually post the better ones first >>



In my experience, I've seen it go both ways depending on the set. The sets I'm currently collecting, it's been a crap shoot on whether or not I should pull the trigger on what they have listed now, or wait for someone to buy what's listed and wait for the next one. I've shot myself in the foot a couple times waiting on a better example.

jmmiller777

Wow, this is interesting stuff. I think 4SC has an amazing inventory. Some pricing is really good while other inventory is way out of sight. I scooped up a lot of Kellogg's a couple of years back at great prices, wish I would of got some more before their 20%+ increase. But it seems there are always lots of values to go through. As far as where this cardboard is coming from, who knows?

sdsalezman

I'm sure they've built a lot of their inventory by establishing relationships and posting buy ads on dealernetb2b. There's a ton of distributors, sub-distributors, dealers and card store owners that use the site that are probably glad to sell them raw cards.

BLUEJAYWAY

<< <i>I still say this company is/was part of the old Rotmans furniture in Worcester Ma.
There was no one else in the Mass area that had the inventory like Rotmans.
They may have sold everything off to someone local but the inventory I still think is from Rotmans >>

Believe there was a Rotmans in eastern New York in the Latham area as well.

Stingray

Wow talking about old time sellers:

mattinglymint23

<< <i>I've also heard they send employees around major card shows buying up all the high grade sets/lots they can get their hands on. >>



I've seen this first hand. They are impressive. I have set up at a few shows and they come through. They are like celebrities now but doesn't seem to slow down the buying.

PFB

Tom -

Wish this was the old Rotman's guys - I grew up in Worcester and spent all my paper route money there! Guys like dcanfield bought truck loads of stuff from Rotmans when they went out of business. Unfortunately, the kids (Rotman) ran it into the ground. They started off making the plastic sheets (9 card) and then single card holders in the 1980's. They were an old warehouse, massive, probably 1M square feet. You would walk down this long hallway, fill out an order sheet, and then they would bring you the stuff. Eventually, in the late 80's they created a showroom, same process, fill out sheet, bring you the stuff. In the mid to late 90's they were auction only, and then eventually got into other ventures. I think during the "junk wax" era
they invested too heavily. My understanding, and I have no evidence, is they were apart of the card line "Action Packed" - remember, the gold cards.

I still have an OPC hockey box from their - 1985-86.

Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.

Start to piece together who would have access to that kind of inventory of unopened material, that was authentic, and could be submitted.

PFB

Tom -

Wish this was the old Rotman's guys - I grew up in Worcester and spent all my paper route money there! Guys like dcanfield bought truck loads of stuff from Rotmans when they went out of business. Unfortunately, the kids (Rotman) ran it into the ground. They started off making the plastic sheets (9 card) and then single card holders in the 1980's. They were an old warehouse, massive, probably 1M square feet. You would walk down this long hallway, fill out an order sheet, and then they would bring you the stuff. Eventually, in the late 80's they created a showroom, same process, fill out sheet, bring you the stuff. In the mid to late 90's they were auction only, and then eventually got into other ventures. I think during the "junk wax" era
they invested too heavily. My understanding, and I have no evidence, is they were apart of the card line "Action Packed" - remember, the gold cards.

I still have an OPC hockey box from their - 1985-86.

Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.

Start to piece together who would have access to that kind of inventory of unopened material, that was authentic, and could be submitted.

ndleo

Renata Galasso! That almost caused me to have a flashback. I bought a lot of stuff from her catalogs before I was able to drive. I think I saw her once at the old Plymouth, MI shows during the early 80's. I still am amazed that a woman was one of the largest dealers in our hobby at one time.

Does anybody collect the sets she used to print? I believe they were licensed.

miwlvrn

<< <i>my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not. >>



Monthly payments of $55,000 in grading fees even with that low rate, and unless they have a custom return shipping policy worked out in the negotiations (which they probably do), that would otherwise be noticeably over $10,000 in return shipping fees each month, plus the cost of shipping and insuring items sent to PSA for grading too. I wonder how many employees they need to handle that volume? Sure seems like it would take a lot of them.

TheDudeAbides

Witnessed them purchase raw cards at one of the Rosemont shows a few years ago. The dealer in question had just purchased a few raw sets, and after pulling what he wanted, sold the rest to 4Sharp. I remember seeing the check written out. It appeared they were going table to table, purchasing raw cards. I saw them at last years national in Chicago going over the results of a completed sub at PSA's booth.

Stingray

<< <i>Renata Galasso! That almost caused me to have a flashback. I bought a lot of stuff from her catalogs before I was able to drive. I think I saw her once at the old Plymouth, MI shows during the early 80's. I still am amazed that a woman was one of the largest dealers in our hobby at one time.

Does anybody collect the sets she used to print? I believe they were licensed. >>



Man, I miss those shows, they were doing them into the 90s and it was fun just to go look at stuff that I know I couldn't afford, but might only see once in a great while.

Mickey71

Question????

With PSA's business booming for like 4 years now....why do they need to do bulk deals at really low rates? It puts everyone else at a disadvantage. I mean, how does this benefit PSA? If they have a back log of cards month after month and have had this for years now.....why???

dbcoin

Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card

PMKAY

<< <i>Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card >>



For arguments sake could a deal be given to a mass submitter for a $4 rate per card with the agreement that for every X amount of cards submitted a voucher for X amount of dollars towards future submissions is issued to the mass submitter?

ndleo

<< <i>Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card >>



Is the the lowest rate they charge or the lowest net rate? I used to work in the food distribution biz and the word "pricing" had many different meanings. In order to protect "street pricing", the manufacturers would have back end deals to reduce the cost. That way they could charge the smaller customers more and still show that they are receiving the "best" price.

ndleo

<< <i>

<< <i>Renata Galasso! That almost caused me to have a flashback. I bought a lot of stuff from her catalogs before I was able to drive. I think I saw her once at the old Plymouth, MI shows during the early 80's. I still am amazed that a woman was one of the largest dealers in our hobby at one time.

Does anybody collect the sets she used to print? I believe they were licensed. >>



Man, I miss those shows, they were doing them into the 90s and it was fun just to go look at stuff that I know I couldn't afford, but might only see once in a great while. >>



The 1985 show is when the hobby changed for me. I had a two 9 pocket sheet full of 1984 Donruss Mattingly RCs, every fat dealer in the place was falling over themselves to buy them from me.

dbcoin

<< <i>

<< <i>Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card >>



For arguments sake could a deal be given to a mass submitter for a $4 rate per card with the agreement that for every X amount of cards submitted a voucher for X amount of dollars towards future submissions is issued to the mass submitter? >>



Why would they put $4 in the officially filed SEC doc if that was the case? Seriously, you guys need to get a clue. This repeated discussion is getting old.

Time4aGansett

Perhaps 4Sharp bought a ton of their 80's inventory from a long time dealer in RI. This is just speculation on my part, but perhaps a possibility.
In the late 80's early 90's he would set up at the local mall show and set up a table of unopened boxes that were from all sports, and had the black mark return on them. He had a ton of stuff. Stacks of boxes, including '81 Topps football. Word from several local dealers was that he was one of the few dealers who was allowed to buy trainloads of Topps closeouts (along with Fritsch) and had a massive warehouse to store everything. Anyone who dealt with cards in Massachusetts and RI knew him. His store had little in cards, which was ironic, but he had everything from the 80's at the shows. Currently he no longer deals in cards, and I often wonder where his large inventory went.

dytch2220

<< <i>

<< <i>my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not. >>



Monthly payments of $55,000 in grading fees even with that low rate, and unless they have a custom return shipping policy worked out in the negotiations (which they probably do), that would otherwise be noticeably over $10,000 in return shipping fees each month, plus the cost of shipping and insuring items sent to PSA for grading too. I wonder how many employees they need to handle that volume? Sure seems like it would take a lot of them. >>



They probably just have an employee drive a truck to California once a month or contract a truck shipment. This way your business insurance or the carrier insurance covers damage.

BostonAmericans

<< <i>4sharp is located in Mass.

If you don't know about Rotmans in Worcester Mass from back in the day you won't know what I'm talking about.
Let's just say they had skids and skids of inventory >>



Rotmans is FAAAAAAAAAANTASTIC

cpamike

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card >>



For arguments sake could a deal be given to a mass submitter for a $4 rate per card with the agreement that for every X amount of cards submitted a voucher for X amount of dollars towards future submissions is issued to the mass submitter? >>



Why would they put $4 in the officially filed SEC doc if that was the case? Seriously, you guys need to get a clue. This repeated discussion is getting old. >>



From Collectors Universe Inc.'s June 30, 2013 10-K SEC Filing:
"In the case of trading cards, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $4 to $50 and averaged $6.16, per trading card. As a general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles."

Not trying to split hairs here, but the word "approximately" was used. We know there are grading services over the $50 threshold so why wouldn't someone expect a number lower than $4. To state things like "you guys need to get a clue" is very counterproductive. If we all thought alike, things would be pretty boring.

ashabby

<< <i>Tom -

Wish this was the old Rotman's guys - I grew up in Worcester and spent all my paper route money there! Guys like dcanfield bought truck loads of stuff from Rotmans when they went out of business. Unfortunately, the kids (Rotman) ran it into the ground. They started off making the plastic sheets (9 card) and then single card holders in the 1980's. They were an old warehouse, massive, probably 1M square feet. You would walk down this long hallway, fill out an order sheet, and then they would bring you the stuff. Eventually, in the late 80's they created a showroom, same process, fill out sheet, bring you the stuff. In the mid to late 90's they were auction only, and then eventually got into other ventures. I think during the "junk wax" era
they invested too heavily. My understanding, and I have no evidence, is they were apart of the card line "Action Packed" - remember, the gold cards.

I still have an OPC hockey box from their - 1985-86.

Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.

Start to piece together who would have access to that kind of inventory of unopened material, that was authentic, and could be submitted. >>

dbcoin

Let's look at some numbers. If 4SC is submitting 20K cards/month (15% of total as reported by the SEC docs) at $2.75 (your numbers) . The average card ticket price is $8 as also reported by the SEC docs. Most of you guys seem to submit the specials at $6 and $7. Then who is submitting all the $15 and $20 cards to get to an average of $8?

ashabby

<< <i>Renata Galasso! That almost caused me to have a flashback. I bought a lot of stuff from her catalogs before I was able to drive. I think I saw her once at the old Plymouth, MI shows during the early 80's. I still am amazed that a woman was one of the largest dealers in our hobby at one time.

Does anybody collect the sets she used to print? I believe they were licensed. >>



I am trying hard to find psa graded and hard to find in raw to grade. But a long term project

MrSnuffleupagus

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Sorry for the trip down memory lane - my understanding from reliable sources, is they (4SC) have a minimum submission to PSA each month, somewhere is the 20K card range, in return they get a flat price of $2.75 per card. They pay that amount no matter what - if they submit the cards or not.


this is completely and totally untrue. Official documents filed with the SEC (you can go to jail for putting wrong stuff in there) state the lowest rate is $4/card >>



For arguments sake could a deal be given to a mass submitter for a $4 rate per card with the agreement that for every X amount of cards submitted a voucher for X amount of dollars towards future submissions is issued to the mass submitter? >>



Why would they put $4 in the officially filed SEC doc if that was the case? Seriously, you guys need to get a clue. This repeated discussion is getting old. >>



From Collectors Universe Inc.'s June 30, 2013 10-K SEC Filing:
"In the case of trading cards, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $4 to $50 and averaged $6.16, per trading card. As a general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles."

Not trying to split hairs here, but the word "approximately" was used. We know there are grading services over the $50 threshold so why wouldn't someone expect a number lower than $4. To state things like "you guys need to get a clue" is very counterproductive. If we all thought alike, things would be pretty boring. >>



Stop trying to confuse us with facts Mike! Get a clue!

ashabby

<< <i>Question????

With PSA's business booming for like 4 years now....why do they need to do bulk deals at really low rates? It puts everyone else at a disadvantage. I mean, how does this benefit PSA? If they have a back log of cards month after month and have had this for years now.....why??? >>



If on contract and long term I think psa is smart for doing this. Is my belief