My Biggest Hope For The Hobby...

DM23HOF

Chilling here on vacation, had a dream...

I dreamt TPGs would just do away with their arbitrary, inconsistent, numerical grades altogether.

I dreamt they would just slab a card to simply signify it is totally legit and unaltered. No numerical grade at all.

Then collectors in the market would have to sort out-- with our own eyes-- which is the most desirable, based solely on our own personal criteria and judgment. Not someone else's.

Such a tectonic shift would instantly make "buying the card" the only option.

It would instantly make the most attractive card the most desired and valuable card.

Would this ruin competitive Registry collecting and the concept of GPA's? In a sense. But now those who like to collect that way would have to exercise their own eye in choosing the best card; and fellow collectors of that mindset would actually have to look at each other's cards to see which were nicest, not merely look at a grid with GPA numbers based on grades given by a 20-something dude who was just trained to grade.

Now back to chilling. Hope everyone is doing great.

Holla.

MC

Big80s

Very interesting to think about. It would certainly cut down on the amount of cards graded. The pop report would only be relevant to cards that are actually rare in any condition. I think this world you've imagined would be most interesting for prewar collectors, but for the modern collectors, it'd make much less sense to slab anything except autographs.

Dpeck100

Was this a serious post?

MisterBungle

A well respected third party assigning grades to cards
is the best thing to ever happen to the hobby.

So yeah, I think doing away with that would be a
disaster.

~

itzagoner

if you're dwelling on this nonsense, you're not on vacation yet. aren't there a few golf courses where you're at? bars? wild game?

bobsbbcards

It would instantly make buying cards online a crap shoot. (I said crap)

Dusto

Sounds like you've been hitting the sauce on vacation. Keep having fun!

mattinglymint23

No!!!!! Don't take away the random numerical grades. Then we have to pay more for the low grade eye appeal! Matt you are drinking in the sun! Step away from the keyboard!

edmundfitzgerald

I'm a huge fan of point five grades. I try to collect as many as I can. I'm just infatuated with them. Can't really explain it.

CocoaBeachDodgers

<< <i>I'm a huge fan of point five grades. I try to collect as many as I can. I'm just infatuated with them. Can't really explain it. >>




That's funny that you say this because, I too, really like many of the cards with the 1/2 grade. Not always of course, but quite often they just seem so much nicer than their card 1/2 grade higher.

As far as no numeric grades, we would just be back to the sellers cards being MINT and the buyers being VG!

bishop

Hey, Bob...if things stay as they are, is that more like a turkey shoot ?

Burks

It's only going to get worse. I can see someone starting a stickering company similar to coins.....

KbKards

Prior to third party grading, the scammers in the business made buckets full of money based on his dream. Buy nice looking cards with significant but hard to see issues which significantly affect the value and grade of the card. Price them as NM or better cards then shop them around until you find somebody who doesn't know any better or misses the issue. Those were the good old days for the scammers.

biggmacc

MC,

A thought.

What about strictly qualifiers instead of numerical grades?

Each 'issue' is a qualifier - so the buyer is at least clear on what is wrong with the card.

Example grade:

Authentic WR WS

"Authentic Wrinkle with Wax Stain"

That way collectors could judge a card based on how it looks, not the numerical grade. I have seem all too many 9's that look better than 10's.

DM23HOF

<< <i>Prior to third party grading, the scammers in the business made buckets full of money based on his dream. Buy nice looking cards with significant but hard to see issues which significantly affect the value and grade of the card. Price them as NM or better cards then shop them around until you find somebody who doesn't know any better or misses the issue. Those were the good old days for the scammers. >>



How many times have we seen some unworthy card with an unworthy grade on it that makes some poor sap spend a huge bundle on it? That's a scam, too. Some poor mark is sitting there thinking he's holding the best card around because that's what some sticker says, and meanwhile some other dude bought a cheaper card that's way nicer looking.

DM23HOF

<< <i>MC,

A thought.

What about strictly qualifiers instead of numerical grades?

Each 'issue' is a qualifier - so the buyer is at least clear on what is wrong with the card.

Example grade:

Authentic WR WS

"Authentic Wrinkle with Wax Stain"

That way collectors could judge a card based on how it looks, not the numerical grade. I have seem all too many 9's that look better than 10's. >>



That's what I'm talking about. Slab the card so collectors know it's authentic and unaltered, and summarize its strengths and weaknesses.

Every collector doesn't agree with the definitions someone thought up ages ago. One man's 10 is another man's 8, and vice versa.

Show collectors high-rez scans and we can determine for ourselves what the grade is. Put the focus on the card and not the sticker grade.

Dpeck100

PSA is closing in on 23 million collectables graded with a huge percentage of those being cards.

A move to a system that you propose would be the stupidest business decision ever.

I think this thread is more about your concept of buy the card and not the holder and I doubt you actually think this is a good idea.

If you only care about the card why do you send cards in for a review? You obviously care about what the stickers says.

grote15

I'm not sure how I feel about abandoning the grading scale on single cards, but I am definitely in favor of such a scale for pack grading.

DM23HOF

Dpeck,

I'm not sending a business proposal to a VC firm here. I'm BS'ing in a light, playful tone with fellow collectors about the hobby landscape with respect to grading. I am not doing spreadsheets or considering that CU/PSA do this, nor am I running projections on what it would do to their stock price.

Sometimes there is sheer enjoyment and value in exploring ideas, however iconoclastic or wild they may be. What you call "the stupidest business decision ever," I call a fun conversation.

And personally, to respond to your assertion regarding my own actions, I could care less what the sticker says unless I'm going to sell something. I know when I have a card in my hand, whether it's mine or someone else's, if it puts higher grade specimens to shame.

Dpeck100

<< <i>Dpeck,

I'm not sending a business proposal to a VC firm here. I'm BS'ing with fellow collectors about the hobby landscape with respect to grading. I am not doing spreadsheets or considering that CU/PSA do this, nor am I running projections on what it would do to their stock price.

Sometimes there is sheer enjoyment and value in exploring ideas, however iconoclastic or wild they may be. What you call "the stupidest business decision ever," I call a fun conversation.

And personally, to respond to your assertion regarding my own actions, I could care less what the sticker says unless I'm going to sell something. I know when I have a card in my hand, whether its mine or someone else's, if it puts higher grade specimens to shame. >>




The primary reason card grading came to be was to use a third party who was un biased to rate the condition of the card. You are essentially suggesting they completely abandon this.

PSA's business is driven by the grade. The higher the grade the more the card sells for and the better they look and the more their market share grows.

This forum is clearly here to discuss the hobby and that is fine. So far there hasn't been much discussion because the idea is laughable.

Think about what you are suggesting. You would have all of the cards that were graded with a 1-10 scale and then this new model.

I get it that you think you are the master grader and that is great. You have had great success with cards and getting them to bump but don't kid yourself you obviously care about the grade.

DM23HOF

Dpeck,

I really don't need to be taken to econ class; not because I don't need one, it's really not my bag at all, I could use one I'm sure-- but not here on a baseball card forum. I'm trying to be loose and have fun. And a hypothetical company can indeed make an unbiased formal evaluation of a card and all its attributes without assigning a subjective grade. Some of us care as much or more about cards and the hobby as things like PSA's "market share."

And please don't presume to tell me what I care about. If I cared about grades, I'd have much higher graded cards in my collection.

grote15

The concept of "buying the card, not the holder" has been around the hobby for years, and there are many collectors like Matty who subscribe to this concept to various extents. I think only the most superficial of collectors cares only about the flip and not about the condition of the card inside the holder. It is a sliding scale, though, to be certain, and when I say that collectors subscribe to the concept to various extents, there are certainly those who will purchase a low end 9 or 10 over a PQ 8 solely due to the grade. I don't personally agree with that kind of perspective or outlook, but I wouldn't begrudge a collector who does, as the reasons for collecting in the first place are often inherently personal. In this sense, no school of thought is the "right" way to collect, and even the most asthetic collector certainly has at least a personal interest in the grade on the flip, if only for monetary reasons, or he wouldn't absorb the expense to send cards in for review. Ideally, a collector will pursue and purchase cards that are both higher grade and worthy of the grade on the flip.

Dpeck100

<< <i>Dpeck,

I really don't need to be taken to econ class. I'm trying to be loose and have fun. And a hypothetical company can indeed make an unbiased formal evaluation of a card and all its attributes without assigning a subjective grade. Some of us care as much or more about cards and the hobby as things like PSA's "market share."

And please don't presume to tell me what I care about. If I cared about grades, I'd have much higher graded cards in my collection. >>




You could be in elementary school and understand this is a bad business decision. And quite frankly there are thousands of collectors who would be upset if this is where card grading went.

When I posed the question if this was a serious thread I just assumed you were partying hard and came up with the idea but it was just a fantasy in an intoxicated state.

I guess you were being serious.

Anyone trying to bump cards cares about the grades. If you didn't you would just keep them the way they were and be pleased with what was inside the plastic tomb.

DM23HOF

Just to clarify: yes, I am incredibly serious. In fact I am putting all my work on hold to draft a granular business plan replete with 100 year projections, just to be safe. I will also jet over to China real quick and have some slab prototypes done up; I hear they are doing some cutting-egde things with plastics over there. I think the card reports for this grading company should be written by hand on ancient papyrus, which may affect our overhead. I even intend to hire the world's most renowned calligrapher, Jones McGoo, along with Banksy, to do the CardReports (Trademark). The illustrious grading team will consist of Indiana Jones, Janet Reno, Ben Franklin (well, a descendant), and Dr. Rene Belloq. I will get a crack team from Tuck, Wharton, Harvard, all the usual suspect B-schools assembled forthwith, to kick the tires before I make my rounds for seed financing. In terms of barrier to entry, market cap, market share, P/E ratio, investment horizon, etc., I will delve into all that titillating, juicy stuff after I design the special platinum diamond encrusted holder the company will give out to random cards. Though econ is admittedly not my core competency, I feel this Achilles is mitigated by the fact that I have just secured a deal with Flavor Flav, Kanye, Kim K, and Jigga to all wear high-end slabbed cards around their necks for the next year. (Hello branding!) So in essence, it's all good. Even by the most chaste projection, we should be ringing the bell at the storied exchange in mere weeks. And as if all this were not enough, I have gotten Duke & Duke to sit on the board.

itzagoner

holy crap, that's a lotta friggin words. it looks like one of Colin Kaepernick's tattoos.

cincyredlegs

I do see where Matty is coming from some degree. Like other people said, its a business. Where there is a business, there is money to be made all around. I can see where there is benefit to having an actual grade but I can also see where what one person sees as a 9 or 10, others won't. No matter how "scientific or quantitative" you make it, at the end of the day grading is subjective.

If you grade a card authentic, someone can sell you a card as mint but not tell you about the surface wrinkles that will not show up in the scan. That is a problem, I agree. I don't know what the real answer is but I am not blindly going to say that TPG are perfect or the greatest thing out there. They have their faults as well.

So, the question is what is the right thing to do? I think Matty has brought up an interest point and think we ALL should debate it. The good and bad. We shouldn't bash someone because they have a different opinion, even if we agree with it our not. This should only help provide positive changes to our hobby. Just agreeing with the norm gets you the same ole same ole and no changes. I think every TPG should listen to the Voice of the Customer to learn how to improve. Those that don't end of out of business.

My two cents.

Mark

DM23HOF

I actually think what biggmacc said earlier has real conversational value; imagine if a card was slabbed and described in detail, all its strengths and flaws, but the evaluation stopped just short of designating a letter or numerical grade. Would be interesting to see how different collectors would desire and value different specimens. To be clear, talking about this purely philosophically and hypothetically, not pitching a business plan. His notion was kinda cool to contemplate.

itzagoner

<< <i>I actually think what biggmacc said earlier has real conversational value; imagine if a card was slabbed and described in detail, all its strengths and flaws, but the evaluation stopped just short of designating a letter or numerical grade. Would be interesting to see how different collectors would desire and value different specimens. To be clear, talking about this purely philosophically and hypothetically, not pitching a business plan. His notion was kinda cool to contemplate. >>



this simply fits the profile of opinion, which is what all 3rd party grading is based on anyways. so, you open the door to a new kind of critique and all the backlash which accompanies it.

lest we forget that before there ever was 3rd party grading, everything still fell into the category of opinion, the only difference being that without the grading provided as a guide, there was just cause for more arguments about perceived flaws. putting a number on any example was essentially intended to diminish the arguments, but the valuation part of the equation evolved when the majority of collectors and investors accepted it as a substitute for educated guesswork.

so philosophically and hypothetically, you may be inviting more trouble back into the ring by extending the parameters beyond was is currently the widely accepted norm.

DM23HOF

I don't wanna speak for biggmacc, but I think he meant something along the lines of centering measurements, factual description of corners, notation of any creases or wrinkles and their size and location, just more of a thorough factual, empirical listing of the card's attributes, with no opinion and no grade.

itzagoner

<< <i>I don't wanna speak for biggmacc, but I think he meant something along the lines of centering measurements, factual description of corners, notation of any creases or wrinkles and their size and location, just more of a thorough factual, empirical listing of the card's attributes, with no opinion and no grade. >>



so how difficult would it be to achieve that on your own? i'm certain you, as a proponent for the simple beauty and presentation of cards free of grades, can understand that. it doesn't really require more opinions when your own eyes do the talking.

i can appreciate what this is leading to, more than you think. while i think the grading process is necessary as well as profitable, i'm also finding a great deal of satisfaction in owning raw cards, unslabbed and unfettered by any opinion other than mine. it's been since last October when i last had a PSA delivery from the postman. i've drifted back into just looking at cards because they're cool to look at, not just because they're worth money. it's so tough to separate the two. this dog is learning new tricks, but not forgetting the old ones. just another in a series of evolutions, perhaps. eventually, i'll get around to subbing again, but the point is that there's really nothing wrong with your own opinion, as long as it's right.

grote15

I think itzagoner is correct--the basic level of authentication and stipulation of "obvious" or "major" flaws is probably going to create even more debate and confusion about the attributes of a particular card. The numerical grade is intended to simplify that debate~discerning buyers can still evaluate a card based on its merits and make the decision to pass or purchase the card based on its value/price/grade, just like they do today. The consistency and standards of the grading company definitely play a factor in that equation~and is the reason why peope will pay $10 for a PRO 10 card and $1K for that same card in a PSA 10 grade. If the grades consistently don't measure up to the grade on the flip, the value of any card in that company's flip will be adversely affected.

perkdog

First thing that comes to my mind after reading the opening post and not sifting through all the responses is that this scenario would open the flood gates for people getting incredibly ripped off, especially the non informed peeps.

PSASAP

Isn't this segment of the market already covered by BCCG? I think their motto is "The grading company for collectors who hate grades".

TheMick6

Taking the title of the thread into consideration (having hope for your hobby is a good thing to me) I'll just offer up my opinion. That little 1-10 on the PSA slab is a safety net as far as I see it. When I was younger in the early eighties my collection couldn't buy a nice home if sold. It's a safety net only in the sense that if I ever needed to sell it do to a life emergency as I am by no means rich. I have the luxury of the leader in the industry vouching for my graded collection and not the typical dealer from the mid eighties telling me my collection isn't as nice as I think it is. I love the hobby and for me it's an extension of the sport I love which only adds to my enjoyment of it. The cards definently mean more to me then the plastic around them but damn they sure wernt cheap! If my 57 Mantle in NM+ condition was still 175 like it was in 1986 and not the near 2 grand it is today maybe I'd leave it up to individual interpretation but I prefer it in the 7.5 case thank you. Just an opinion.

bounce

<< <i>Isn't this segment of the market already covered by BCCG? I think their motto is "The grading company for collectors who hate grades". >>



+1 - this was exactly what i was thinking

lawnmowerman

<< <i>Isn't this segment of the market already covered by BCCG? I think their motto is "The grading company for collectors who hate grades but we'll put a 10 on it anyway, even if it is a giant piece of crap". >>




Fixed

ashabby

I think by grading you get an idea how rare a card is. I know the number count is off some. But better than nothing. It is a tool to help do business and yes this is a business. I like the hobby side of it and have not sold one card. But I insure my cards based on the psa data base.

ClockworkAngel

Mattingly is simply sharing a dream he had, one that puts the hobby back in the hands of the collector instead of the grader. He's dreaming of a softer, gentler hobby

One that's Not so coldly charted . It's really just a question of your honesty, yeah, your honesty...

oh crap sorry inadvertently went into a Rush song there

Obviously, there's no going back from where we are in the hobby. Capitalism is alive and well and numerical grades will continue to rule the hobby unless something monumental happens, but I agree with the sentiment DM!

esquiresports

<< <i>imagine if a card was slabbed and described in detail, all its strengths and flaws, but the evaluation stopped just short of designating a letter or numerical grade. Would be interesting to see how different collectors would desire and value different specimens. >>



The initial philosophical thought was just authentic and unaltered, which is interesting, but has several shortcomings already noted (e.g., surface wrinkles, difficult to notice stains, etc.). This led to the slippery slope of first just noting a few particulars, to the above. All this does, essentially, is replace a numerical grade with a descriptive grade. This leads to even more issues/questions - where does this description go? Why would we feel that the "20 year old just trained to grade" would do a better job at writing a description than assigning a numerical grade? And the end result - I now get to look at a card plus a report card? The inefficiency of a number for words is compounded during the search process. Whereas before I could search, for example, (PSA (8, 9) 1975 Brett), and get a few hits, I now get to look through 50+ different listings. First photos and then possibly descriptions. Ughhh.

I can understand why people can get frustrated with a 7 versus 8 or 8 versus 9 versus 10 and the wild variances in resulting fair market value, but forcing everyone into a horribly inefficient system isn't the answer. If centering and color are what matter to a buyer, he/she is free to search for low-grade examples that fit the bill but otherwise get knocked down due to paper loss, a surface wrinkle/bubble, or maybe a mark on the back. No change to the system is necessary to find these.

Lastly, but maybe most importantly, are you putting the Ruth up for sale?

DM23HOF

Almost did, when I was considering a run at a Balt News-- but in the end didn't want to part with the entire collection. Will have to chase the Balt through long haul patience and saving up.

LarkinCollector

The only change to the system I would like to see is taking the human element of grading out of the equation. An automated system cannot be that difficult to create given available technology, with a full detailed report of the card's characteristics along with a standardized, no-fudge grading scale. Eliminate the 'How is this card a 10?', all the bump/resub threads, why different issues are held to different standards, etc.

jmmiller777

<< <i>The only change to the system I would like to see is taking the human element of grading out of the equation. An automated system cannot be that difficult to create given available technology, with a full detailed report of the card's characteristics along with a standardized, no-fudge grading scale. Eliminate the 'How is this card a 10?', all the bump/resub threads, why different issues are held to different standards, etc. >>



This is in fact, very possible. I don't know if it would be cost effective, but it can be done. I work on celluar instruments that do this same process. We could measure sharpness of edges, amount of material lost from corners, measure every print dot and assign a grade to the card. It seems rather excessive, but the technology is here.

LarkinCollector

<< <i>

<< <i>The only change to the system I would like to see is taking the human element of grading out of the equation. An automated system cannot be that difficult to create given available technology, with a full detailed report of the card's characteristics along with a standardized, no-fudge grading scale. Eliminate the 'How is this card a 10?', all the bump/resub threads, why different issues are held to different standards, etc. >>



This is in fact, very possible. I don't know if it would be cost effective, but it can be done. I work on celluar instruments that do this same process. We could measure sharpness of edges, amount of material lost from corners, measure every print dot and assign a grade to the card. It seems rather excessive, but the technology is here. >>


Agreed, and once refined, they could go to a Redbox type of model. Instant grading and encapsulation at a hobby retailer near you...

BLUEJAYWAY

It would seem that card/coin graders are like umpires-each one sees the card/coin attributes,strike zone differently.