Redbook valuation of 1877 Indian Head Cent

stevepk

The 2012 Redbook list the 1877 Indian Head Cent in Fine-12 at $1,550. I happen to own a PCGS certified 1877 Indian Head Cent graded as a problem-free Fine-12. Assuming the current edition of the Redbook still lists the 1877 Indian Head Cent in Fine-12 at $1,550, how do I convert my 1877 Indian Head cent into $1,550? It's such a popular book and I know the values must be derived from somewhere.

lostincoins

They have recently been selling for as low as 500.00 to 1300.00 according to a quick glance of the coinfacts auction results. Take a look at herritage for recent sales. Also are you saing you want to seel your coin, if so list it on BST or ebay, amazon, heritage or some other auction site.

pcunix

By finding someone who is willing to pay that. Flippant answer, but it is the truth. Definitely won't be a dealer or most investors. PCGS itself shows it at less than that, for one thing.

You can put it in a eBay auction and hope to get that much after fees, but you probably won't.

Walkerguy21D

I very recently sold this to customer/friend of mine for his set, for $825, and paid less than that for it, from another dealer.
Perhaps yours is significantly better, or I sold mine way to cheap? But Greysheet Bid for a F12 is $825, last I looked, so if you
are able to get more than $1000 for your coin, it better be stellar.

stevepk

This answer does not address my question. I typically value coins in accordance to auction data. Heritage is great because it provides quality photos and is a commonly used medium between knowledgeable buyers and sellers. My question is not how to value a coin. I am questioning the crazy prices listed in the Redbook. How is it such a popular reference guide, yet the prices appear to be derived from fantasy? The Redbook lists my coin at over $1,500 and I am curious if anyone put enough stock into the Redbook to exchange my coin for $1,500 cash. The Redbook suggests this can be done, and the Redbook sells like hotcakes. Where can I find the Redbook buyer?

lostincoins

You would have to go back to 2012 and look at shows for guys running around with a red book in their hands and then offer to sell to them at full list. There is your answer.

stevepk

<< <i>You would have to go back to 2012 and look at shows for guys running around with a red book in their hands and then offer to sell to them at full list. There is your answer. >>



What value does the current 2014 (or perhaps 2015?) Redbook assign to an 1877 Indian Head Cent in F12? Is it significantly lower than the 2012 listing?

lostincoins

You would have to go to a book store to look that up or find someone on here who uses it. I do not use the red book so can not answer current pricing questions based on that periodical.

lkeigwin

I don't know anyone who uses the Redbook to determine value though it does provide a general sense for relative value and scarcity.

The Redbook is a great resource in many ways. But it is a poor price guide. Accept it and move on.
Lance.

lkeigwin

<< <i>

<< <i>You would have to go back to 2012 and look at shows for guys running around with a red book in their hands and then offer to sell to them at full list. There is your answer. >>



What value does the current 2014 (or perhaps 2015?) Redbook assign to an 1877 Indian Head Cent in F12? Is it significantly lower than the 2012 listing? >>

No change from the 2012 edition.
Lance.

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>Where can I find the Redbook buyer? >>


Look for cabbage trucks driving around, and watch for anyone falling off

Seriously though, I don't have an answer to any of your questions.....I recall Mark Borchardt, now a big shot at Heritage, telling me in
his father's B&M store back around 1986 "there are coins I would sell all day long at Redbook prices, and coins I would buy all day long
at Redbook prices".....this tells me the Redbook has been 'wrong' for a very long time. Heck if the mintage figures of the early coins listed
need to be taken with a grain of salt, as dies were re-used into the next year. Maybe this is why I've only bought one Redbook (large format) in the past 20 years.

mrdq

There used to be a Red Book, Blue Book, Black Book put out i think by the same company and people would use one or the other based on if they're buying or selling. They're published MONTHS ahead of the YEAR on the book so it can't really represent any true current value. I always used them for RELATIVE worth.. is a 14 d worth more or less than a 14 s or 31 s but nothing printed that far out can be accurate or reflect coin personality or detrimental issues, it's just not possible.

Use all published coin "values" with caution and auction realized prices with a little more confidence but it comes down to _the coin_

stevepk

It would only make sense if the current edition of the Redbook lists the coin at roughly $900 in Fine-12 and that the value of the coin significantly dropped since 2012. Unless this is the case, I will continue to question how values are determined for Redbook publication and will continue to question the popularity of the Redbook. I will give the Redbook credit if someone can direct me to a buyer at Redbook values. I acknowledge it is a comprehensive guide to United States coins with nice photos, but given its popularity, I would expect more realistic valuations.

Comments would be appreciated. It could be something as simple as:

"You're right. Redbook pricing is bogus and often nothing but a fantasy book. Many people are deceived on the value of their coins and the book does not warrant a purchase by anyone besides a child first developing an interest in the hobby. The editors of the Redbook have become lazy when it comes to accurate valuations of commonly traded United States coins."

crypto79

A mature answer would be that the current coin market is too dynamic and quality driven to have and single price index be very accurate esp one published annually. There is simply to much range and qualifiers (plastic, stickers, age of said items) for any given grade to ever have an answer. It takes a combination of all sources and in depth market knowledge to know true price points and even then they can turn stale quick.

The redbook is a reference book first and Foremost used mostly be people new to beginner in our hobby (although plenty of more "advanced" people could use a flip through the pages). At best I would only recommend its prices as insurance values although on some issues where they are low you will find ready buyers quite quickly.

The 1500$ price is a retail price and a strong one at that as the market for cir key dates is a bit soft right now, never the less it is typically hard to get retail price unless one takes the time and effort to setup and develop a retail establishment.

Steve

<< <i>The 2012 Redbook list the 1877 Indian Head Cent in Fine-12 at $1,550. I happen to own a PCGS certified 1877 Indian Head Cent graded as a problem-free Fine-12. Assuming the current edition of the Redbook still lists the 1877 Indian Head Cent in Fine-12 at $1,550, how do I convert my 1877 Indian Head cent into $1,550? It's such a popular book and I know the values must be derived from somewhere. >>



You are a pretty knowledgeable collector, right? Would YOU pay $1550 for a 1877 Indian Head cent in Fine-12? If not, then how much would YOU pay today for that PCGS coin? Don't expect to get any more than you would pay. JMHO. Steve

sparky64

I like the Redbook, am all about the Redbook. Like others have said, I too do not use it as a price guide when purchasing.

Read the top of page 8 in your 2012 edition. It states how they derive coin values.
You'll have to draw your own conclusion as to how much stock you put into what's stated.

I have seen people bid at Mom & Pop Auctions and use the Redbook for bidding limits.

I've never seen a slabbed 1877 IHC at one of these auctions.

coin4sale

the red book is a guide, not the gospel.

A wise dealer one told me a coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it at the time it is offered for sale - and that is not necessarily what may be listed in a price guide... Sure for the right coin you can get red book or over, but for others, you may get 50% of the listed value.

The red books "value" is not in the specific valuations for each coin but rather helping distinguish the rare / scare/ higher valued coins in each series relative to the common ones.

Walkerguy21D

<< <i>A mature answer would be..... >>


Thank goodness Crypto chimed in.....please ignore all other posts LOL.

DaveG

I've always been told that the Red Book prices are supposed to represent retail prices at a B&M (and the higher end of retail prices, at that).

That having been said, I've never met an advanced collector or a coin dealer who uses the Red Book as a price guide.

richbeat

The Bluebook might be a better "guide" as to what you can expect to "get" from a dealer. But again, as with the Redbook don't take the value listed too seriously.

lordmarcovan

I've been known to use Redbook, but I supplement it with Numismedia and PCGS priceguide and intuition.

I still use it unashamedly, but with the full realization that it has its shortcomings.

I've never been a Greysheet user. Did use the Numismatic News and Coin World trends in the distant past.

mr1931S

The Redbook is useful for relative pricing within the series.I use Coin World.Coin World (April 2014) says $1000 for F12 '77.June issue says the same,$1000 in F-12.

$1000 average retail coin.Ask a bit more,say $1100,$1200 even $1300 if you have a motivated buyer in line.Also,asking more than $1000 is justified if the coin isn't just there but "talks to you."

19Lyds

<< <i>This answer does not address my question. I typically value coins in accordance to auction data. Heritage is great because it provides quality photos and is a commonly used medium between knowledgeable buyers and sellers. My question is not how to value a coin. I am questioning the crazy prices listed in the Redbook. How is it such a popular reference guide, yet the prices appear to be derived from fantasy? The Redbook lists my coin at over $1,500 and I am curious if anyone put enough stock into the Redbook to exchange my coin for $1,500 cash. The Redbook suggests this can be done, and the Redbook sells like hotcakes. Where can I find the Redbook buyer? >>

Probably already answered but to find that "2012 RedBook Buyer" you'd have had to of sold your coin in 2011 which was a very up year for coins. It takes 6 months or so before a book goes from concept to print and the prices derived for the 2012 edition more than likely came from 2011 sales data.

Today's market coin market is somewhat depressed and continuing in that direction for some of these commonly available and actively collected classic pieces. In other words, collectors of the time knew that these had low mintages and as such stuck them away. The end result is that, all it requires is money and the coin can be had in very short order.

The RedBook itself appears to be nothing more than a "traditional" publication in that the prices displayed, rarely indicate current market actions. I would no more use the RedBook for coin valuation than I would ole Uncle Bob since Uncle Bob is stuck in the 50's.

More accurate price guide values can be obtained via other sources.

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>You would have to go back to 2012 and look at shows for guys running around with a red book in their hands and then offer to sell to them at full list. There is your answer. >>



What value does the current 2014 (or perhaps 2015?) Redbook assign to an 1877 Indian Head Cent in F12? Is it significantly lower than the 2012 listing? >>

Again, probably already answered but my 2014 RedBook has the coin listed at $1,550! Again!

Oh well!

LindeDad

I have found all the price guides have at least one coin that is listed at figures that the trends do not support.

EagleEye

Auction records from 2006 to 2011 show prices between $1350 and $1500. I think the prices have dropped and the Red Book is slow to show it.

BillJones

There was a huge and IMO unwarranted run-up in the price of key date coins a few years ago, fueled by speculation. I think that the market has settled a bit.

Also there are low end Fine graded 1877 cents that show little of the word LIBERTY and high end pieces that show all of the letters. Low end coins can lower the prices in auctions and ultimately in price guides.

veryfine

You can count me among the buyers who paid full retail for one of these during the high price era. I probably picked the worst time to buy a circulated 1877.
It's not a particularly good feeling.

coinhack

It's a different age.

I remember the Red Book from the late 1950's to the 1970's was THE price guide. I don't remember ever seeing any other price guide. It was used then just like the gray sheet is now. It sat on the counter of the local coin shop and most coins were priced right from the Red Book.

But it was a different time. Things moved slowly in the coin world. Prices didn't change that quickly. A price guide that came out once a year was adequate. When the new book came out once a year, I remember running down to the coin store and buying a new copy and going home to re-value my little hoard of coins. I think everyone did that. Coin collector Christmas came in the spring with the new Red Books.

I remember the guy who owned the local coin store telling me that he was making a living from the store but that his inventory had increased over the years at 10% every year. He was pretty pleased with that.

And there weren't 20 grades of uncirculated. There was Unc for low end AU58 sliders to beat up MS62 coins, Brilliant Uncirculated for nice MS63 to 64 coins, and Gem uncirculated for MS65 to 66 coins. A nice BU Morgan dollar was $2 to $3. Indian cents clear back to the 1880's sold for a dime.

Now I would not rely on the Red Book for values but I still buy one every 3 or 4 years for the valuable information.

Amigo

Thanks for the walk down memory lane coinhack, brought back the ole memory. Those were fun filled days living in fantasy.

IMHO, Redbook was mostly a joke for prices in the 80s / 90s. During the coin runup til 2007 or so was when it was the most accurate for high end retail. Plenty of coins were still off by plenty though.

Here's an answer for you though. What other book is available for newbies to buy off the shelf with both coin knowledge and pricing ? They dominate the space. It is a great book though, absentee pricing. Now admitedely, it must be a problem at times for Dealers to explain why they won't pay $1500 for their F12 raw with PVC damage.

Black book is meant for sell prices to Dealers ........... but WOW, they make the seller grab their ankles big time on the rarer coins.

EagleEye

It think the drop in prices is due to a few things, none of which is lack of demand.

1. The wide usage of auction records to gauge "the market". Prior to PCGS CoinFacts, prices were derived from dealer bids and asks. Now, the prices are derived solely from auction results. This tends to lower prices because of overgraded slabs, auction sales to mostly dealers and the unwillingness for buyers to stretch much over the historical records.

2. A trend by collectors to buy coins at auction, thinking they are eliminating a "middleman". The downward trend is a self-fulfilling prophecy, when buyers do not stretch to buy the right coin and just pass on the overgraded coins, letting them sell cheaper.

It used to be that if a dealer had a buy at $X.XX, that was the market. Now it is only a data point among many data points. It is data that is not universally known, which makes the auction data more prominent.

BillJones

Just before I retired as a dealer, ALL key date coins were selling like crazy. That was all some collectors or speculators would buy. That attitude drove prices to speculative levels in my opinion. You can pay too much for anything, even key date coins.

At the end of the day, the 1877 Indian cent is not a great rarity. There are a number of collectors who want one, but to me if it is not part of a set, it's an irrelevant coin. There is no real history or great story behind it ... just a lower than normal mintage of just a bit south of 1 million, which not all that low when you compare it to a lot of other coins.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>At the end of the day, the 1877 Indian cent is not a great rarity. There are a number of collectors who want one, but to me if it is not part of a set, it's an irrelevant coin. There is no real history or great story behind it ... just a lower than normal mintage of just a bit south of 1 million, which not all that low when you compare it to a lot of other coins. >>


This is a good point. The 1877 may be the "key date" Indian Head Cent, but I don't think it has the allure of other key dates which can stand alone because of their long-time popularity.

veryfine

Don't underestimate the magic that this date possesses. For a small cent, it has an extremely low mintage, and despite the population reports, it is scarce when compared to all other Indian cents. Of course, the condition rarity specialists will disagree, but for the more "down to earth" collectors, it is THE date to acquire in order to complete the set. By the way, the set CAN be completed and is relatively affordable. The elitist ms collectors have little regard for key dates in circulated grades. They will quote other dates in the Indian cent series at the ms66 level, while degrading the 1877 based on pop reports and availability at shows.

It's getting a little tiresome.