1964-D Washington Quarters w/ Transitional 1965 Reverse (Ty C)
wondercoin
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I finally got the opportunity to upgrade my MS65 coin with a lovely MS66 specimen. I have been looking for a solid MS66 quality coin for close to (20) years. I know Doug Rall from our boards also has one of the three MS66 specimens in his top set of Ty B and C quarters. I think that another board member might own the third PCGS-MS66 specimen out there, but I am not sure? Maybe someone knows the answer to that. But, even the MS64 and MS65 pieces are great coins, not to mention any business strike or circulated piece for that matter! This transitional reverse coin is very underrated in my opinion. Post an nice example if you have one. Here is my example...
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
Wondercoin
<< <i>what are the pick up points? >>
Tailfeathers on the type C have a distinct centerline, also leafs below are very sharp and almost touch the tailfeathers. Also, the leaf in front of the tips of the arrows is more pointey...If that's even a word...
Nice coin Mitch
<< <i>
<< <i>what are the pick up points? >>
If you've got one, you'll know it. Mostly the boldness of the design is the major difference, the type A reverses are mushy crap in comparison. It's a stark contrast side by side. Exceptionally difficult to find, in over 3 years of searching junk silver every week, I've only found one and it is XFish. >>
is this because like the type b, the type c uses proof die(s)?
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I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Kidding aside, that really is a VERY nice coin, Mitch! I love blast white examples, and THIS coin is just, well, WOW! I certainly thought I'd be able to upgrade my 64 by now (maybe 4 years since the 'bull run' on B's and C's), but DAYUM, these are NOT easy to find nice (even a nice 63, but higher, forget it...Proofartwoork has done a lot of work on these types, and has the 'numbers' to back up how 'special'/impossible to find these are, high grade or not). As a matter of fact, I have never come close to finding an upgrade, 'cept for the one Julian had, which Lee beat me to the draw on, it was a nice PCGS MS65, unattributed (yes, I STILL remember that one, Lee...if not for an extended phone call, and bathroom break, things might have turned out differently with that....lol...you got a great coin for a pretty decent price on that one, Lee....).
Mitch, yours is VERY nice! Congrats on the upgrade/bean on a VERY tough coin, and being a 'blasty' coin, I can't put into words can't how especially nice that coin is, Mitch!!!
No, the Type C is the '65 Reverse, not a proof reverse... look at a '65 quarter... they sharpened up the design to compensate for the harder planchets of CuNi, from what I understand. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.>>
There are more than 1 variety of 1965 quarters. This type C was only used on a small minority of 1965 quarters and never used on any proofs. It had a weak EPU on the clads but it struck up well on the silver 1964 D.
An addition pickup point are the six feathers in the wing tips rather than the five previously.
No, this is not my MS65 coin upgrading to MS66. I bought this coin already in the MS66 holder. And, Lotsoluck .... I think the coin may upgrade to MS66+ down the road. MS67 is a stretch. That grade is tough for any 64-D quarter let alone a Ty C coin. This coin is nicer than any other Ty C quarter I have ever seen by at least about a point and a half.
Wondercoin
Nice score! I had that coin in my watch list and was thinking it would do very well and it did. As you pointed out this variety is quite scarce in any grade. In uber grade, well it is a condition rarity, a very neat transitional piece, and just fantastic. In the type B/C set the 1956 is a tough coin, but I believe this type C just makes the set. Well done! It's time to get your other 2 coins attributed and move into 1st place. That 1957 67+ is smashing! Now, I'll post my dirty coins
My Washington Type B/C Set
Dale
Thank you on seeing that Ty B MS67+ 1957 residing in my regular set. I actually have three coins in my regular set that need to be attributed as Ty B coins ... that 1957 you mentioned, my 1961 in MS66+ and my 1962 in MS67.
And, I agree with you Ken regarding the Ty C as the key to the set. And, while the 1956 is a killer coin in gem 65 and higher another underrated coin is the 1964 in gem and higher grade. Just look at how many MS66 coins exist for the 1961 vs. the 1964.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
There are precious few coin reminders (transitional, off-metal, etc) of the switch to clad coins and anything Gem has to get my interest.
TTT
Hoard the keys.
I like cladking's take on it.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Recall that the mintage on 1964-D quarters was about 704 million pieces. If there is only one die that was used for these Ty C quarters then that may have produced (perhaps) 250 thousand coins? Therefore, maybe one in 2,800 coins from 1964-D is a Ty C? If it turns out that there were two dies, then maybe one in 1,400. The bigger issue though is the survival rate of these Ty C coins after all the silver melts. After all, 1964-D was the date virtually everyone would select to melt down considering the mintage tables for this series. This might help explain why so few of the coins have been discovered yet in any grade after all these years. And, of course, there are coins out there just waiting to be cherry picked. Good luck!! Wondercoin
Recall that the mintage on 1964-D quarters was about 704 million pieces. If there is only one die that was used for these Ty C quarters then that may have produced (perhaps) 250 thousand coins? Therefore, maybe one in 2,800 coins from 1964-D is a Ty C? If it turns out that there were two dies, then maybe one in 1,400. The bigger issue though is the survival rate of these Ty C coins after all the silver melts. After all, 1964-D was the date virtually everyone would select to melt down considering the mintage tables for this series. This might help explain why so few of the coins have been discovered yet in any grade after all these years. And, of course, there are coins out there just waiting to be cherry picked. Good luck!! Wondercoin >>
I can't argue with Wondercoin's math. However, Bill Edwards and friend searched a large quantity of 1964 D's and found 1 type C in 13,913.
Probably the the early production (pre-clad) ended up with collectors (savers) and the late production (clad era) by speculators (melters).
edit: corrected 11,000 to 13,913, friends to friend. More info on later posts.
“Great looking coin Mitch. Basically a twin to my 1964-D MS66 type C reverse. This is not a proof die like the 1956-1964 Type B varieties. This is actually a transitional die to be used in the clad quarter series beginning in 1965 and some of the clad dies got into the 1964 D production run rumored to have been completed in 1965 to fulfill a quota..... so I would call this a transitional reverse variety.
The easiest diagnostic to spot is the split tail feathers like the ultra cool cheerios SAC dollar.
I have only seen one actual die variety of the 16+ Type C uncirculated coins I have owned and sold.
A few looked like a different obverse die and on closer examination they all had die polish on the obverse in the same spot above the foot of the L in liberty. Recently someone told me there were more than one die pairing of these type C and I have not personally seen any other die pairings.
Great score Mitch I would never let mine go that cheaply, sold a 65 at that price previously. All the best and happy hunting. DR”
Wondercoin
Thanks for that information.
Wondercoin
made late in the '64 production cycle which extended well into 1965. Despite the heavy
production of '64-D coins these coins ran out rather early in 1966 at least in this area.
It usually took from two to five years in those days to release the entire production of
a date and these were not seen coming into circulation after early '67. Indeed, by the
time the FED secretly started removing silver in 1968 the '64 quarters were looking a lit-
tle ratty, or at least, there were very few fresh coins.
It is known that a lot of the '64 mintages were sucked up by speculators because it was
easier than separating clad and silver after November of '65. Perhaps not only were
these preferentially melted for this reason but the FED might have even had some in
storage when they began separating and melting silver.
The velocity of quarters was very high in those days not only because they were "real
money" and people spent them but millions got quarters from the bank to search. To-
day we need 45 billion quarters because they don't circulate well, but in early 1966
when clad was beginning to take over, there were only a couple billion quarters and
they were heavily used.
Even if there really were a quarter million or half million made and commensurate
numbers surviving today, most will likely never be identified before they get shipped
off to be destroyed.
It would be helpful to know the location of their release.
1) Some dies fail early in their life.
2) Some person may have noticed the "error" and pulled the die from production.
Wondercoin - Do you have any opinions on the extent of die life on this "C" reverse?
The 1964 D type C was first noticed in 1966.
In 1966 John Hinkle of Kentucky and Bill Edwards of Alabama (that makes 2 different Federal reserve Districts) went through 320,000 1964 D quarters and found 23 type C.
That is 1 in 13,913 quarters. Whether those were the right locations to search or not, I don't know.
These were mostly less than BU.
Most of this data is in the Collectors" Clearinghouse, Coin World, August 2, 1967 Page 35.
edit: The article said $80,000 in 1964 D quarters were searched. I was unable to correctly multiply by 4 on my first attempt. Numbers have been corrected.
PAWC: I believe the life would have to be less than my original thought of roughly 250,000 coins based upon not only Bill Edwards extensive work but also my personal efforts to locate Ty C quarters over the past decade or two. If the die produced closer to 100,000 coins things would certainly make more sense to me. And, of course, it is possible that someone at the mint put a halt to this Ty C die prematurely as you suggested.
Wondercoin
George Gilston of New York was the first to report a 1964 D type C.
There were two reports from Florida and one from South Carolina.
I mentioned Kentucky and Alabama last night. It looks like the South East corner of the country was favored.
I had to correct last night's math booboo. 4 x 80,000 = 320,000 NOT 280.000.
So you have a 1962 P Type B in MS67..... you owe me for that one Mitch, right?
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
One person has stated that John Wexler has stated that two dies were used for the 1964 D type C. I have not verified that with John yet.
<<"Wondercoin - Do you have any opinions on the extent of die life on this "C" reverse?">>
My apologies to you, again my writing is not as clear as it should be. I was wondering if the die itself was showing signs of wear.
If not, that would be an indication of a short die life and lower mintage.
Wondercoin
Here is the reply from John Wexler.
The link did take me DIRECTLY there and he has detailed pictures there..
<<Hi Herb,
Nice to hear from you.
Yes, I have listings for two different working dies for the 1964-D Type C quarter. They are illustrated on my website at www.doubleddie.com where you can click on Transitional Listings in the left column menu. Scroll down and click on the link for the 1964-D quarters. The following link should take you directly there:
http://www.doubleddie.com/286101.html
John>>
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
So, is the coin even rarer than we think? Or, perhaps Denver got the news later that they would not be minting another quarter for (4) years!
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
<< <i>There cant be a 1964D with a 1965 rev.There were no mint marks in 65 and in 64 mint marks were on the reverse. >>
Some dies apparently intended to strike clad quarters in mid-'65 were apparently processed
to strike silver coins in Denver inadvertantly.
You might want to consider turning on your PM function in your profile. The little lock above
blinks when you have a message.
That is what makes this coin so special. It is the only known clad reverse with a mint mark. Silver and clad quarter production overlapped 1995-1966.
Some worker adding mint marks to dies destined for silver production at Denver got hold of the wrong dies.
Wondercoin.