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1964 Proof Kennedy Transitional Piece
harveypb
Posts: 514 ✭
I was just reading on another coin forum about a proof 1964 Kennedy Half which is a transitional piece.
It has the reverse of the Accented Hair variety but regular proof obverse. The diagnostic is the G in the initials FG
is straight up with no serif on the top left...
I just checked a 1964 proof Kennedy that I just got back from PCGS graded PF67DCAM recently and it has the transitional reverse!!!
Anybody have an idea of its scarcity or value?? Not sure if PCGS recognizes this transitional piece...
TIA
Harvey
It has the reverse of the Accented Hair variety but regular proof obverse. The diagnostic is the G in the initials FG
is straight up with no serif on the top left...
I just checked a 1964 proof Kennedy that I just got back from PCGS graded PF67DCAM recently and it has the transitional reverse!!!
Anybody have an idea of its scarcity or value?? Not sure if PCGS recognizes this transitional piece...
TIA
Harvey
0
Comments
Accented Hair
<< <i>Relatively common. Neat but not nearly as sought after as the accented hair. >>
I would not say common at all. Mintage was less than the Accented Hair.
<< <i>As per the description, as small percentage have the Type 1 Reverse and notice the price is $10 more for this one than the Accented Hair! (1998 prices). >>
If your really interested, there is a decent thread with lots of information . I don't think I can post a link but if you GoogleFoo this thread title you should find it
<< <i>1964 'Accented Hair's Little Brother' - T2O-T1R >>
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
<< <i>
<< <i>Relatively common. Neat but not nearly as sought after as the accented hair. >>
I would not say common at all. Mintage was less than the Accented Hair.
<< <i>As per the description, as small percentage have the Type 1 Reverse and notice the price is $10 more for this one than the Accented Hair! (1998 prices). >>
If your really interested, there is a decent thread with lots of information . I don't think I can post a link but if you GoogleFoo this thread title you should find it
<< <i>1964 'Accented Hair's Little Brother' - T2O-T1R >>
>>
That book, was printed in 1998 which makes the data 16 years old.
Of the 38 DDO Varieties for 1964, 5 have Normal Hair with RDV-001.
RDV-001 was used extensively on the 1964 and 1964-D Kennedy coins as eBay gets quite a few 1964 and 1964-D coins listed as Accented Hair Reverse coins.
While the die pairing is not common its also not an uncommon pairing. What pisses me off is when folks market or list these as "Accented Hair Reverses" which, while it is true, its also borderline key word spamming as examples are simply not that difficult to obtain.
As for the other forums? No point in being Shy. PCGS doesn't care if you refer to some other coin forum.
PCGS even has a thread on the subject.
Here's another one on a forum I am not familiar with.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Of the 38 DDO Varieties for 1964, 5 have Normal Hair with RDV-001. >>
Agreed but only 1 Proof. And these reverses on the regular coins are not the same, rays different or something like that.
<< <i>RDV-001 was used extensively on the 1964 and 1964-D Kennedy coins as eBay gets quite a few 1964 and 1964-D coins listed as Accented Hair Reverse coins. >>
Well as above I have to get more details but the Proofs were limited as per the Kennedy Book itself.
<< <i>While the die pairing is not common its also not an uncommon pairing. What pisses me off is when folks market or list these as "Accented Hair Reverses" which, while it is true, its also borderline key word spamming as examples are simply not that difficult to obtain. >>
Well I guess you are so entitled but again, the proofs are what the thread is about and what makes this not common per se. If I am correct, Accented Hair's are Proofs only. As for the people spamming these, people will be people, but this particular one is at least 10x harder to find in proof than a Type 2 reverse and that is the point.
As for posting links, I will go ahead as it is a good thread with lots of information and no reason to reproduce the information here. If the link is deleted then so be it.
Accented Hair's Little Brother..
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
<< <i>Relatively common. Neat but not nearly as sought after as the accented hair. >>
<< <i>Let's take a look at that Kennedy book again, the AH variety has a URS of 19 which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage at 125,001 - 250,000. A PR67 is listed as $40 (1998). Well this variety in discussion has a URS of 17, in which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage around 32,001 - 64,000 (I was on the right track). A PR67 is listed as $50. If he deems it more valuable than the AH, then maybe he is on to something. >>
This is from the man who wrote the book on Kennedy's.
Again, these are being found for sure, not rare as in a 64 SMS, but if you consider the Accented Hair as uncommon, then one would have to at least consider these the same. I can not see how they are more populous than the Accented Hair unless they used the TYPE 1 Reverse for many die cycles. This is possible I guess. I wish we could get some numbers from the Mint. I wish someone could verify how long a die is used on Silver, it has to be more than Clad.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
And more to the point these are sold at the same price as a regular, non-AH, proof. Which is only just a little more than melt.
Yes - the reverse dies were paired with more than just the AH obverse dies.
<< <i>
<< <i>Of the 38 DDO Varieties for 1964, 5 have Normal Hair with RDV-001. >>
Agreed but only 1 Proof. And these reverses on the regular coins are not the same, rays different or something like that.
>>
DDO-009 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair RDV-001
DDO-020 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair RDV-001
DDO-032 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair RDV-001
DDO-034 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair RDV-001
DDO-036 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair RDV-001
DDR-008 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair doubled RDV-001 (No notation on doubling for the obverse)
DDR-012 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair doubled RDV-001 (No notation on doubling for the obverse)
DDR-018 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair doubled RDV-001 (No notation on doubling for the obverse)
DDR-020 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair doubled RDV-001 (No notation on doubling for the obverse)
DDR-024 is a Proof Coin. Normal Hair doubled RDV-001 (No notation on doubling for the obverse)
This means ............... well, nothing other than that at least 6 unique RDV-001 dies were used (1 normal with 5 DDR's) with ODV-002 (Normal Hair)
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I see many saying these are common. I have yet to see someone deny the evidence of of scarceness. You see , the 'Kennedy Book' lists it as more rare than the Accented Hair. This is fact, printed fact even. Please show me otherwise.
<< <i>Let's take a look at that Kennedy book again, the AH variety has a URS of 19 which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage at 125,001 - 250,000. A PR67 is listed as $40 (1998). Well this variety in discussion has a URS of 17, in which Mr. Wiles puts the mintage around 32,001 - 64,000 (I was on the right track). A PR67 is listed as $50. If he deems it more valuable than the AH, then maybe he is on to something. >>
This is from the man who wrote the book on Kennedy's.
Again, these are being found for sure, not rare as in a 64 SMS, but if you consider the Accented Hair as uncommon, then one would have to at least consider these the same. I can not see how they are more populous than the Accented Hair unless they used the TYPE 1 Reverse for many die cycles. This is possible I guess. I wish we could get some numbers from the Mint. I wish someone could verify how long a die is used on Silver, it has to be more than Clad. >>
This nook is filled with theoretical information with formula's based upon a sampling from a large number of coins. (If I have 100 proof coins that have RDV-001 and only 1 of them has ODV-002 then 1% of the total production MUST be the ODV-002/RDV-001 pairing.)
They are not representative of actual fact but simple speculation.
Again, the data within the book is 16 years old and not necessarily representative of what folks are actually seeing today.
This is not intended to diss the fact that you are excited about your finds. It's only intended to say that actual figures have not been updated from when that book was written and those figures/experiences contradict what the book is stating.
A more accurate sampling would be from perhaps 10 or 20 thousand 1964 proof coins which could be possible with the participation of many coins dealers.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>These come through the shop very frequently, enough so that I have not even bothered to note them any longer.
And more to the point these are sold at the same price as a regular, non-AH, proof. Which is only just a little more than melt.
Yes - the reverse dies were paired with more than just the AH obverse dies. >>
Ok fair enough, that makes sense.
<< <i>Of the 38 DDO Varieties for 1964, 5 have Normal Hair with RDV-001.
This means ............... well, nothing other than that at least 6 unique RDV-001 dies were used (1 normal with 5 DDR's) with ODV-002 (Normal Hair) >>
6 Unique that are Double Dies would indeed make these less rare. Good Point. I wonder if that is the case then the Mint continued to use the Type 1 reverse for quite a while after pulling the Accented Hair Obverse. You make a very good case.
<< <i>This nook is filled with theoretical information with formula's based upon a sampling from a large number of coins. (If I have 100 proof coins that have RDV-001 and only 1 of them has ODV-002 then 1% of the total production MUST be the ODV-002/RDV-001 pairing.)
They are not representative of actual fact but simple speculation. >>
Agreed and I said I had no proof, all I could use is what information I found.
<< <i>Again, the data within the book is 16 years old and not necessarily representative of what folks are actually seeing today. >>
That is entirely possible as there is no updated material to go on. That is why I created the thread, to seek it out. One thing to keep in mind is that ANACS recognizes this variety which is a good thing.
<< <i>This is not intended to diss the fact that you are excited about your finds. It's only intended to say that actual figures have not been updated from when that book was written and those figures/experiences contradict what the book is stating. >>
Well I would agree, but that would also possibly negate the 'assumed' numbers of Accented Hair's. I found one, a Cameo even in the wild and you still hear about them being found. True, not many are looking but the Kennedy Half is not the most popular coin to collect by far. I take no offense at all, as a matter of fact, I like it. It is information that I find pertinent to the question at hand. You have not just stated "They are common", you have given reasons and good ones at that as to why you feel they are common and for that I am grateful.
<< <i>A more accurate sampling would be from perhaps 10 or 20 thousand 1964 proof coins which could be possible with the participation of many coins dealers. >>
That would be nice. I would like to see a new Kennedy Book written, but I think we will have to wait until they are no longer minted for that to happen.
Kudos to you sir +1
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
As 19LYDS said I too do not want to stomp on excitement in the hobby.
I like the transitional proof and I used to be more excited about them as well but perhaps I have become too jaded. Sorry.
One point to notice is the list of DDO's above with the Typ 1 reverse, if this is the case then they are common. However, does this refer to proof DDO's also?
Just curious as I still am happy to have these and like the fact that ANACS recognizes them, I can not understand why PCGS/NGC does not. I would think they would and even if not rare per se, the Cams and Dcams sure would be.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
yes, Lee, if we ever met I would certainly piss you off if the truth can get to you going!!
That being said, finding so many ACLB makes me wonder a bit. I got lucky in that I must have got a group that was very early in the mintage time. I looked with a loupe and found no double dies etc so that was sad.
Either way I am happy and I feel like I have expanded my knowledge of these. Maybe they are as common as some have said...
With that being said, why does ANACS slab them as a variety? They are the variety experts right?
I am thinking they not be rare, but uncommon just a little?
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
I have RDV-01 transitionals on a proof, and business strike from both Philadelphia and Denver. Does anyone have any idea on relative populations?
It looks like both reverses were made in business strikes.
varietyvista.com/12%20Kennedy%20Halves/Reverse%20Design%20Varieties.htm