Help me learn how to grade a Lincoln Cent - Just for fun!
hchcoin
Posts: 4,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is intended to be an educational thread so please join in. I have a bunch of blue Whitman folders that I haven't really taken the time to look at in years that I am liquidating. Every once in a while a coin jumps out at me. Take the coin pictured below as an example. It is a 1968-S red uncirculated cent with some very clean fields. There are noticeable marks on the relief. I count 5 major marks in the picture with a few minor ticks on the relief. There is also an annoying spot above Liberty and also a dark spot of above Lincoln's head. Other than that, the coin looks very clean to me. Here are my questions:
1. When grading uncirculated coins such as this, do you count the number of marks/nicks in the field and relief as part of your grading assessment? For example, if a coin has 2 marks versus 4 does that drop it a grade? What are the rules of thumb for uncirculated Lincolns and the number of marks?
2. What about the spots? Do they lower the grade 1 point or more in your opinion?
3. How about strike? How would you evaluate strike on a Lincoln such as this? Does this coin have above average strike?
4. How about luster? Does this coin have it? How do you evaluate it?
5. For those of you that submit coins like this, how do you evaluate if it is slab worthy?
P.S. You can rip the coin to shreds if you like - it is just a coin I had in my closet for years and you won't hurt my feelings
I also realize you can't grade from pictures but I am more interested in how you evaluate a coin like this in hand.
1. When grading uncirculated coins such as this, do you count the number of marks/nicks in the field and relief as part of your grading assessment? For example, if a coin has 2 marks versus 4 does that drop it a grade? What are the rules of thumb for uncirculated Lincolns and the number of marks?
2. What about the spots? Do they lower the grade 1 point or more in your opinion?
3. How about strike? How would you evaluate strike on a Lincoln such as this? Does this coin have above average strike?
4. How about luster? Does this coin have it? How do you evaluate it?
5. For those of you that submit coins like this, how do you evaluate if it is slab worthy?
P.S. You can rip the coin to shreds if you like - it is just a coin I had in my closet for years and you won't hurt my feelings
I also realize you can't grade from pictures but I am more interested in how you evaluate a coin like this in hand.0
Comments
1. One big mark in a key area is worse than a dozen in not-so-important areas. The one on the nose bugs me, but I'm not a Lincoln expert. Strictly from marks, I'd see this at MS63 or so.
2. Spots are a big negative in my book, especially on copper, silver, nickel, and gold (sometimes)
3. Strike is series-specific. Again, I'm no Lincoln expert, but the hair detail, lapel, and beard look a little mushy.
4. Luster - If the coin jumped out at you, I'm assuming luster is good. This is really hard to judge from photos. Twirl it under a light. If it has luster you'll see lots of life. If it doesn't, it will be flat and uninteresting.
5. Slab-worthy? To me this is just math. If the jump in the coin's value / liquidity is greater than the cost of grading, go for it. Usually you aren't sure how it will grade so there is some uncertainty and risk assessment that needs to be accounted for. Usually a coin has to be in the $200 range or so to make slabbing worthwhile.
2. Depends on what makes the spot. Copper spots on Gold for instance should not impact the grade, it may impact who wants to buy the coin and what they are willing to pay for it, but it is not a grade demerit. Generally spots due to environment influence a grade but by what caused the spot, where it is, what can be under it (PVC rot) and how "removable" it is.
3. You want to see detail in the hair, and bow tie, on the reverse you want to be able to see the details inside the memorial, and yes strike can move a grade considerably.
4. Luster is tells you a lot and can move the grade, but only if all of the other things are there. Luster is something you look for beyond the grade. You can have 2 MS65 Morgans one with "booming" luster and another that is just so-so and you have to decide for yourself what coin you would buy. Most choose the better luster, especially at low price differentials.
5. Slab worthy comes in a couple of flavors. A few that come to mind are financial, surety and collecting. I would never sell a 1909-S VDB (or trade dollars) without grading it first (even if it is Details), only because there are so many fakes. Other time's I do the math and see if spending the money increases my potential profit. And then there are the "just because" I am a collector and want to preserve the coin for a whole host of reasons that only a coin nerd can appreciate. I have owned many coins in plastic that were valued at less than the grading fees I paid to put them into slabs. But it was not about the value in that case. Sometimes I do it just to test my grading skills!
No marks, no spots
Perfect Strike
Perfect Luster
= MS 70
Then work your way down from there.
<< <i>The pic is a bit fuzzy could we get a pic more in focus for those that are not as familiar with Lincolns it would be helpful along with the reverse for an overall grade? Thank you. Sorry edit to add could you put a light at 10 and 2 to help see the luster and strike characteristics? >>
I am also pretty sure with my set up the pictures would still suck
<< <i>Very interesting answers so far. I am very interested in the answers to the first question. I am an accountant and financial analyst by trade and it seems like counting the marks on uncirculated coins would be a very easy way to figure the starting point for a grade and subsequent down grades. For example:
No marks, no spots
Perfect Strike
Perfect Luster
= MS 70
Then work your way down from there. >>
In the Superb gem grades, 67 and over, I do count the tic's.
One minor tic, 69
Two minor tic's, 68
One hit in focal area 68 etc.
Once you get into the gem range, 65'ish, then the exact number of hits is less important than the placement and depth of the hits.
Try that first
Eric
<< <i>The number of marks/tics, and to a much lesser their degree placement, can be swerved by luster (mitigated by stunning luster or hindered by poor luster), strike, surfaces etc.
Eric >>
I don't see this in the very high grades, superb and above.
I think the luster is assumed in these grades.
<< <i>
<< <i>The number of marks/tics, and to a much lesser their degree placement, can be swerved by luster (mitigated by stunning luster or hindered by poor luster), strike, surfaces etc.
Eric >>
I don't see this in the very high grades, superb and above.
I think the luster is assumed in these grades. >>
Yes, you addressed the superb grades 67 & up - I was speaking of those a bit under, where the individual mix of these qualities more readily influences grade - "it depends" as it has been said.
Eric
Most, at this level, are not even examined with a loupe. Big, distracting spots and hits will lower the grade, certainly. A coin like this would probably earn 64/65RD.
Take a look at this 66+ eye opener. There are many more examples like it.
Lance.
2. The spots may reduce the grade to MS63
3. The strike on this coin is poor, but typical of the year. There are better examples for this year.
4. I like the lustre, at least what I can see from your pictures. This may give +1 uptick to the negatives.
5. Slab worthy only makes sense if you are collecting a "registry" type set where all of the coins have to be slabbed (TPG graded). While I collect TPG coins in high grades, I also enjoy very much completing the collections that I have have for over 50 years. Filling a hole in an old album can be just as gratifying as a major score on a low pop coin. I have a few IHC proofs that were graded code .91 ( Questionable Color) that I am considering just putting into my album and waiting for 10-20 years and see if the color is still questionable. TPG slabbed coins will never define the hobby, except at the most discriminatory level.
So, I think the coins is an MS64Red. Downgraded for spots and ticks and upgraded for lustre. Thanks for the great post. It was better than the usual GTG post.
OINK
<< <i>Grading high-end, red Lincolns is different from most coins. PCGS counts luster and flash a lot more than tics here and there.
Most, at this level, are not even examined with a loupe. Big, distracting spots and hits will lower the grade, certainly. A coin like this would probably earn 64/65RD.
Take a look at this 66+ eye opener. There are many more examples like it.
Lance. >>
Hmmm
I think my entire collection is somewhat under graded.
<< <i>1. I think that the number of ticks is subject to the relative grade and to the series. The ticks are more forgivable on silver dollars and less so on pennies. The ticks on the coin that you posted would limit the grade to 64.
2. The spots may reduce the grade to MS63
3. The strike on this coin is poor, but typical of the year. There are better examples for this year.
4. I like the lustre, at least what I can see from your pictures. This may give +1 uptick to the negatives.
5. Slab worthy only makes sense if you are collecting a "registry" type set where all of the coins have to be slabbed (TPG graded). While I collect TPG coins in high grades, I also enjoy very much completing the collections that I have have for over 50 years. Filling a hole in an old album can be just as gratifying as a major score on a low pop coin. I have a few IHC proofs that were graded code .91 ( Questionable Color) that I am considering just putting into my album and waiting for 10-20 years and see if the color is still questionable. TPG slabbed coins will never define the hobby, except at the most discriminatory level.
So, I think the coins is an MS64Red. Downgraded for spots and ticks and upgraded for lustre. Thanks for the great post. It was better than the usual GTG post.
OINK >>
This is a very good response. A lot can be taken from it regarding grading and the hobby.
The color and strike were there. There were a a few scattered small ticks on each coin that graded MS 66 RD. None of them jumped out at you.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
That coin should be sent in for reconsideration. As a downgrade and a check to make the deal right. Just send it to HRH and title the message: WTF........
OINK
67
67
<< <i><<Take a look at this 66+ eye opener.>>
That coin should be sent in for reconsideration. As a downgrade and a check to make the deal right. Just send it to HRH and title the message: WTF........
OINK >>
I tend to agree. I don't know RD designations very well but if that was a brown colored Lincoln it would probably grade at 63 with so many marks.
Others have already touched on the technical aspects for grading these. For me its more of a feeling I get that helps me peg a grade. My mental camcorder reads and stores data the more I view graded coins and when I look at a new coin I mentally retrieve that data and group the coin with the coins I remember having the similar look. I only get confused when something unique comes along or I haven't been staying current with the series. 64's look like this or 65's like that etc.
For the date shown you could probably find a roll of these in most coin shops or shows, lay them out only to discover the whole mint roll has coins slathered in die polish or are mushy strikes or have sots on all of them and would be slid back in the roll and sold as a BU roll. Or you could find a roll of really well made and preserved coins and sort the best ten and THEN find the best ONE or TWO of those through a process of elimination to maybe find a slabbed/gradable candidate. And still one would want to see what is really available for the date and comparing your example before taking a shot at a high grade or you would be setting yourself up for a disappointment of the coin came back say a 64 and worth 10-12 bucks instead of a 67 worth hundreds or more.
So I'm saying it in another way that looking at coins constantly will make all the difference and one day a light will go on. That is how it happened for me, although I'm not a good teacher I'm sure others could explain a little better than me how to get there.
Nice men are truly here to help and though it often feels like a "punch" in the gut, the teachers mean very well. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt.