<< <i>Is this like, "The Emperor Has No Clothes"? >>
It's "much Mountain Dew about nothing" to paraphrase Shakespeare
Seriously, I enjoy reading about new discoveries such as this one because it means the search goes on. I suppose that for the classic collector these aren't going to stop the presses but
for error collectors these have significance. If the 2009p Formative doubled dies didn't cause a universal excitement throughout the collecting world, these sure won't. I am keeping an eye
out for them but not buying bank boxes to search. Only time will tell how these play out for value. Good luck to the "believers"!
I'm shocked that there were zero comments on this yesterday, not even from the OP or seller! This is a substantial amount of money for a shiny new penny! It will be interesting to
see where this doubled die trends (how rare is it??)
apparently I'm a one man marching band... This is the quietest reaction to a significant sale price for a 2014 doubled die that I've ever seen. Where's all the variety collectors?
so any idea how these got out and how many may have got out? I don't want to wade through the thread to find out if that info is in there. I would guess the finder searched a ton before taking this public. so probably not many out there.
<< <i>apparently I'm a one man marching band... This is the quietest reaction to a significant sale price for a 2014 doubled die that I've ever seen. Where's all the variety collectors? >>
If you have to try this hard to get a reaction, you might be barking up the wrong tree. Just sayin....
This is not my thread, I don't own one of these, but when something sells for
<< <i>Just sold for $156 >>
I've got to believe SOMEONE is barking up the RIGHT tree with this discovery.
Even the 2009p formative "skeleton finger" variety that is considered the best of the best of that series of doubled dies doesn't command a premium price like this one has...just sayin'
<< <i>I've got to believe SOMEONE is barking up the RIGHT tree with this discovery. >>
Anything is possible but demand is always the key. Once hundreds of collectors pick up on this variety then we can go from interesting to noticeable before you hit the significant range which require thousands of collectors wanting to pick up one of these.
The "major" term I am using is more of a technical term to compare this variety to the 1955, 1958, 1972 DDO's.
Anotherauctionut sold it on Ebay but he has the privacy setting for his buyers so it's unknown who bought it. I don't have the link to the sale but that was the final hammer price-- $156
I'm impressed! I didn't see it as much either initially but you have to admit that's a pretty good price for what most people see as a less-than-significant error.
<< <i>I'm shocked that there were zero comments on this yesterday, not even from the OP or seller! This is a substantial amount of money for a shiny new penny! It will be interesting to see where this doubled die trends (how rare is it??) >>
To paraphrase Mr Cuvelier:
Since the Mint changed to a single squeeze method of die making, it has not stopped hub doubling, but it has changed the results.
Most contemporary doubled dies show a directional distortion along with notching. Sometimes we see separation lines, but often we do not. Once in while there is separation between the doubled devices.
This particular doubled die obverse shows a strong spread almost directly south. Doubling, seen as strong distorted extra thickness with slight notching, is strongest in LIBERTY and the DATE. IN and TRUST show slight extra thickness and distortion. The facial details, in particular the mouth and chin, also have a slight spread. The bow tie and some coat details, similarly to the date, have a strong southerly spread. The space between the neck and coat collar is drastically reduced.
A discussion based on these issues, rather than "back when", is more interesting.
Yes it was an impressive total. But how many bidders? How many are there?
I do find it curious that this was discovered nearly 2 months ago, in pocket change, and so far only one seller.
Did the die break? Was the die pulled? Still in the warehouse?
All in all after several weeks of lurking since my last post, definitely new and interesting for the date. But I wouldn't call it a top 100, let alone top 200 variety for the Lincoln cent series.
If you're referring to Papi's long post, I wouldn't say it's a joke. He's just passionate about this sort of discovery. But a lot of us don't share in that same breathe when it comes to the level of "major" this has in the variety arena.
<< <i>Happy that I didn't get involved in this thread. Just saying… >>
You've just learned the art of grace over the years. The word "major" in CAPS really implies grandiose. That perception alone stirs passion.
One time I used all upper case letters in an email to a woman and that was the end of our relationship on Facebook. LOL >>
The article, and subsequent info, was posted with the title as it was published. The author was obviously passionate about the variety, and I thought there may be some forum readers that may also find it of value.
There's obviously passion on both sides; Nostalgic vs Modern. Neither of which has proprietorship of adjectives.
Call it what you want. Like it, hate it, or indifferent; it's still a doubled die
1. This is a doubled die. 2. This is a single squeeze doubled die, which answers for the lack of very clear separation in the "doubling". 3. Of the ultra-modern Lincoln cents, it is the biggest variety "oops" the mint has made in a number of years in terms of the amount of "spread" in the doubling.
Not really facts, but professional observations from someone who has been immersed in this niche market for over three decades:
It is arguably the nicest of all Union Shield cent doubled dies. A couple of others come to mind that have sold in the $40-$60 range over the past few years.
Is it "marketable"? Yes...to a limited audience.
Is it "major"? Well, that's completely a matter of perception on which I will not offer an opinion.
Is it "valuable"? No crystal ball here, but my outlook says yes. Not at the level of more obvious doubled dies of bygone eras, but still quite valuable for ANY shield cent.
Does it deserve respect? As far as I'm concerned, yes. As much as any other scarce and unusual find in any other niche market - and yes, this is scarce and unusual. I personally could care less about rare die marriages discovered in bust half dollars or new die cracks given catalog numbers in Morgan dollars, but that's why we have millions of people collecting everything from pocket knives to pocket lint. I respect the passion of others in niche markets I do not care about or understand, and don't think it's too much to expect the same in return. I don't care who does or doesn't care about this find - I really don't - but I do find some of the negative comments a bit appalling and extremely narrow minded.
I probably wouldn't have posted anything about this new variety in this forum because I understand the general majority of its audience to be very generalist (which is fine). And if I did find the energy and need to post a thread about it, I certainly wouldn't have started it with "MAJOR" in all-caps. I think that's a little over-done and does lead people who do not specialize in modern doubled dies to expect more than they will receive.
For those who simply cannot see it...I do understand, but think you're trying a little hard NOT to see anything. It's a wee bit obvious when you consider that all the devices on a Lincoln cent should be the same thickness throughout...but if you didn't know that to begin with (most people have never looked at a shield cent through a glass), I would invite you to go back to the initial post and see for yourself that there's some pretty decent "extra thickness" going on there. That, for those who don't know already, is quite scarce and pretty exciting for those who've been involved in the subject.
I am only posting this to clear the air with some level of understanding from both sides of the argument. I am not on EITHER "side" because I can see this from BOTH sides.
<< <i>There's one of these Coins up on the bay now ! It's up to $1.75 with 4 days to go. >>
Just sold for $156 ... somebody knows something ... let the rush for bank boxes begin! >>
Very impressive.
From the linked article in the OP, it appears this is "more" major than recent DDOs.
<< <i>Jim Fines, a collector and member of the Lincoln Cent Resource, stunned us all this past week with the discovery of an extremely strong DDO! According to attributors, this one matches if not exceeds the doubling seen on the famed 2011P-1DO-004, and rivals the doubling on that of the 2006P-1DO-017. Clear notching and obvious, heavy distortion can be seen on just about anywhere on the obverse of this coin, and it is noted that this particular example has possibly the largest spread in the bow tie of any modern Lincoln Cent doubled die. >>
Each design type has its biggies. For example, the wheat design has the 1917 and 1955. The memorial has the the 1969-S and 1972. For the current generation of shield backs, this 2014 is by far the notable of the group.
I would suggest that the distance of the Date distortion, and I'm speaking solely about measurement not appearance, is equal to that of other notable DDOs.
The only difference, because of the new die manufacturing process, are the lack of separation lines. For example:
Again I'm strictly talking about distance; i.e thickness. Use your minds eye and blur the lines
Papi - At this point I would think it best to recommend dropping the subject. Those here who have had interest in seeing and commenting have. I applaud your efforts (although I don't necessarily completely agree with your method) and just like you - I am excited about this new find. Obviously, however, the majority of members here do not necessarily understand what makes this discovery unusual, and no amount of pounding the hammer is going to drive the nail any deeper. It's probably time to move on and let it rest. Just some friendly advice.
I really look forward to this major discovery taking its rightful place in the timeline of significant numismatic treasures. As the ebay bids approach new records all the unbelievers will be left in absolute awe.
I myself believe its worth my bid of at least 5000. But only if its slabbed by PCGS.
Now wheres that 5000 Lire Italian note I had. I swear I just saw it.
Papi I appreciate you sharing as that is what this forum is supposed to be about, sharing discoveries of coins and learning from them. You go Papi.....
<< <i>Obviously it is not as good as a 1955 or even a 1972, but by modern single-hubbing standards it is fairly major. I like the notch on the 1.
TD >>
I guess folks just do not understand the current single squeeze hubbing process since I personally think this is a good example of major doubling by moderns standards.
Thanks for sticking your neck to the PCGS crowd out Papi. They are a tough lot to please. >>
I agree. For the modern era of production this is a pretty good error.
<< <i>Papi I appreciate you sharing as that is what this forum is supposed to be about, sharing discoveries of coins and learning from them. You go Papi..... >>
I can agree with that. As long as one is about sharing discoveries and learning, I think that is awesome! Calling people names because they don't agree how "MAJOR" something is, or lashing out at them because they don't agree.... or browbeating people, however, is not the same.
Share and learn, fine. Pumping things up, not fine.
<< <i> Obviously, however, the majority of members here do not necessarily understand what makes this discovery unusual, and no amount of pounding the hammer is going to drive the nail any deeper. It's probably time to move on and let it rest. Just some friendly advice. >>
It's laughable that one could bring themselfs to think that the reason a group of mostly intermediate to advanced numismatists discount that coin is because we are somehow incapable of grasping the nuances of the relatively simple and straightforward single squeeze hubbing process and tighter quality control at the mint.
The true lack of compression appears to be on the fundmentels of supply and demand and the impact that visual dynamism plays into desirability over technical variance. Even if it is technically important due to a manufacturing variance (debatable), it is assuradly not exciting or desirable from a visual or crossover collectibility aspect.
In one more year I'll be wanting to know if this has turned out to be anything at all. I'll be wanting to know which is bigger this DDO or the 1965 double dot Lincoln.
I just want to know.
I can bid $40,000 on ebay for a stale piece of bread - but what would it mean?
Major or minor, I have to admire the guy who discovered this . . .
Just imagine looking through thousands and thousands of the splotched up, fuggly pennies, front and back, under a hot halogen lamp, with a 10X loupe. And with the patience of Job, desperately searching and searching. Hauling load after load back & forth from the banks, hoping to find something . . . anything to get recognized on the variety sites. Then finally after looking at 3+ gazillion barren cents, only finding spots, and about to throw in the towel . . . Eureka . . . he finds this. The spread on that 0 must have looked huge.
And his life's work is now complete . . .
. . . Well at least till 2015 ! ! !
HH
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
If you need a microscope to see a variety it will never be popular nor valuable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Comments
<< <i>Is this like, "The Emperor Has No Clothes"? >>
It's "much Mountain Dew about nothing" to paraphrase Shakespeare
Seriously, I enjoy reading about new discoveries such as this one because it means the search goes on. I suppose that for the classic collector these aren't going to stop the presses but
for error collectors these have significance. If the 2009p Formative doubled dies didn't cause a universal excitement throughout the collecting world, these sure won't. I am keeping an eye
out for them but not buying bank boxes to search. Only time will tell how these play out for value. Good luck to the "believers"!
I see opportunity here.
Same seller that sold the linked one up above.
<< <i>There's one of these Coins up on the bay now ! It's up to $1.75 with 4 days to go.
I see opportunity here.
Same seller that sold the linked one up above. >>
At 17,500% profit each, you could turn $5,000 face into $875,000
I see opportunity here.
<< <i>There's one of these Coins up on the bay now ! It's up to $1.75 with 4 days to go. >>
Just sold for $156 ... somebody knows something ... let the rush for bank boxes begin!
I'm shocked that there were zero comments on this yesterday, not even from the OP or seller! This is a substantial amount of money for a shiny new penny! It will be interesting to
see where this doubled die trends (how rare is it??)
<< <i>apparently I'm a one man marching band...
If you have to try this hard to get a reaction, you might be barking up the wrong tree. Just sayin....
interesting but not major.
This is not a knock on this variety but just my own honest opinion.
This is coming from a true blue doubled die cent collector.
<< <i>Just sold for $156 >>
I've got to believe SOMEONE is barking up the RIGHT tree with this discovery.
Even the 2009p formative "skeleton finger" variety that is considered the best of the best of that series of doubled dies doesn't command a premium price like this one has...just sayin'
<< <i>I've got to believe SOMEONE is barking up the RIGHT tree with this discovery. >>
Anything is possible but demand is always the key. Once hundreds of collectors pick up on this variety then we can go from interesting to noticeable before you hit the significant range which require thousands of collectors wanting to pick up one of these.
The "major" term I am using is more of a technical term to compare this variety to the 1955, 1958, 1972 DDO's.
There is no doubling whatsoever (at least none visible). It should be called the "thick lettering" 2014 Lincoln cent.
Just sayin.
I'm impressed! I didn't see it as much either initially but you have to admit that's a pretty good price for what most people see as a less-than-significant error.
<< <i>I'm shocked that there were zero comments on this yesterday, not even from the OP or seller! This is a substantial amount of money for a shiny new penny! It will be interesting to see where this doubled die trends (how rare is it??) >>
To paraphrase Mr Cuvelier:
Since the Mint changed to a single squeeze method of die
making, it has not stopped hub doubling, but it has changed
the results.
Most contemporary doubled dies show a directional distortion
along with notching. Sometimes we see separation lines, but
often we do not. Once in while there is separation between
the doubled devices.
This particular doubled die obverse shows a strong spread
almost directly south. Doubling, seen as strong distorted
extra thickness with slight notching, is strongest in LIBERTY
and the DATE. IN and TRUST show slight extra thickness
and distortion. The facial details, in particular the mouth
and chin, also have a slight spread. The bow tie and some
coat details, similarly to the date, have a strong southerly
spread. The space between the neck and coat collar is
drastically reduced.
A discussion based on these issues, rather than "back when", is more interesting.
Yes it was an impressive total. But how many bidders? How many are there?
I do find it curious that this was discovered nearly 2 months ago, in pocket change, and so far only one seller.
Did the die break? Was the die pulled? Still in the warehouse?
<< <i>This is a joke, right? >>
If you're referring to Papi's long post, I wouldn't say it's a joke. He's just passionate about this sort of discovery. But a lot of us don't share in that same breathe when it comes to the level of "major" this has in the variety arena.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>Happy that I didn't get involved in this thread. Just saying... >>
Frankly Mr. D, I'm more than surprised you didn't put your two cents in. Not that I blame you though.
<< <i>Happy that I didn't get involved in this thread. Just saying... >>
Me, too. The new auction for this variety realized almost $160, and this is for a raw, low mint state 2014 cent.
I think it now speaks for itself.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
<< <i>Happy that I didn't get involved in this thread. Just saying… >>
You've just learned the art of grace over the years.
The word "major" in CAPS really implies grandiose. That perception alone stirs passion.
One time I used all upper case letters in an email to a woman and that was the end of our relationship on Facebook. LOL
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>Happy that I didn't get involved in this thread. Just saying… >>
You've just learned the art of grace over the years.
The word "major" in CAPS really implies grandiose. That perception alone stirs passion.
One time I used all upper case letters in an email to a woman and that was the end of our relationship on Facebook. LOL >>
The article, and subsequent info, was posted with the title as it was published. The author was obviously passionate about the variety, and I thought there may be some forum readers that may also find it of value.
There's obviously passion on both sides; Nostalgic vs Modern. Neither of which has proprietorship of adjectives.
Call it what you want. Like it, hate it, or indifferent; it's still a doubled die
Irrefutable facts:
1. This is a doubled die.
2. This is a single squeeze doubled die, which answers for the lack of very clear separation in the "doubling".
3. Of the ultra-modern Lincoln cents, it is the biggest variety "oops" the mint has made in a number of years in terms of the amount of "spread" in the doubling.
Not really facts, but professional observations from someone who has been immersed in this niche market for over three decades:
It is arguably the nicest of all Union Shield cent doubled dies. A couple of others come to mind that have sold in the $40-$60 range over the past few years.
Is it "marketable"? Yes...to a limited audience.
Is it "major"? Well, that's completely a matter of perception on which I will not offer an opinion.
Is it "valuable"? No crystal ball here, but my outlook says yes. Not at the level of more obvious doubled dies of bygone eras, but still quite valuable for ANY shield cent.
Does it deserve respect? As far as I'm concerned, yes. As much as any other scarce and unusual find in any other niche market - and yes, this is scarce and unusual. I personally could care less about rare die marriages discovered in bust half dollars or new die cracks given catalog numbers in Morgan dollars, but that's why we have millions of people collecting everything from pocket knives to pocket lint. I respect the passion of others in niche markets I do not care about or understand, and don't think it's too much to expect the same in return. I don't care who does or doesn't care about this find - I really don't - but I do find some of the negative comments a bit appalling and extremely narrow minded.
I probably wouldn't have posted anything about this new variety in this forum because I understand the general majority of its audience to be very generalist (which is fine). And if I did find the energy and need to post a thread about it, I certainly wouldn't have started it with "MAJOR" in all-caps. I think that's a little over-done and does lead people who do not specialize in modern doubled dies to expect more than they will receive.
For those who simply cannot see it...I do understand, but think you're trying a little hard NOT to see anything. It's a wee bit obvious when you consider that all the devices on a Lincoln cent should be the same thickness throughout...but if you didn't know that to begin with (most people have never looked at a shield cent through a glass), I would invite you to go back to the initial post and see for yourself that there's some pretty decent "extra thickness" going on there. That, for those who don't know already, is quite scarce and pretty exciting for those who've been involved in the subject.
I am only posting this to clear the air with some level of understanding from both sides of the argument. I am not on EITHER "side" because I can see this from BOTH sides.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>
<< <i>There's one of these Coins up on the bay now ! It's up to $1.75 with 4 days to go. >>
Just sold for $156 ... somebody knows something ... let the rush for bank boxes begin! >>
Very impressive.
From the linked article in the OP, it appears this is "more" major than recent DDOs.
<< <i>Jim Fines, a collector and member of the Lincoln Cent Resource, stunned us all this past week with the discovery of an extremely strong DDO! According to attributors, this one matches if not exceeds the doubling seen on the famed 2011P-1DO-004, and rivals the doubling on that of the 2006P-1DO-017. Clear notching and obvious, heavy distortion can be seen on just about anywhere on the obverse of this coin, and it is noted that this particular example has possibly the largest spread in the bow tie of any modern Lincoln Cent doubled die. >>
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
Each design type has its biggies. For example, the wheat design has the 1917 and 1955. The memorial has the the 1969-S and 1972. For the current generation of shield backs, this 2014 is by far the notable of the group.
I would suggest that the distance of the Date distortion, and I'm speaking solely about measurement not appearance, is equal to that of other notable DDOs.
The only difference, because of the new die manufacturing process, are the lack of separation lines. For example:
Again I'm strictly talking about distance; i.e thickness. Use your minds eye and blur the lines
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
As the ebay bids approach new records all the unbelievers will be left in absolute awe.
I myself believe its worth my bid of at least 5000. But only if its slabbed by PCGS.
Now wheres that 5000 Lire Italian note I had. I swear I just saw it.
<< <i>Another unimportant minor variety. Soon to be forgotten. >>
LOL
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously it is not as good as a 1955 or even a 1972, but by modern single-hubbing standards it is fairly major. I like the notch on the 1.
TD >>
I guess folks just do not understand the current single squeeze hubbing process since I personally think this is a good example of major doubling by moderns standards.
Thanks for sticking your neck to the PCGS crowd out Papi. They are a tough lot to please. >>
I agree. For the modern era of production this is a pretty good error.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wouldn't "major" be considered anything Red Book worthy? >>
Wouldn't MAJOR be something you can see without magnification? >>
Can actually make this out fairly easily TDN, with no magnification at all. Maybe your eyes need a checkup?
<< <i>Papi I appreciate you sharing as that is what this forum is supposed to be about, sharing discoveries of coins and learning from them. You go Papi..... >>
I can agree with that. As long as one is about sharing discoveries and learning, I think that is awesome!
Calling people names because they don't agree how "MAJOR" something is, or lashing out at them because they don't agree.... or browbeating people, however, is not the same.
Share and learn, fine. Pumping things up, not fine.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
So how have these major DDO's been doing lately?
Are they up to $500 yet?
Are they hotter than the Gold Kennedys ?
<< <i> Obviously, however, the majority of members here do not necessarily understand what makes this discovery unusual, and no amount of pounding the hammer is going to drive the nail any deeper. It's probably time to move on and let it rest. Just some friendly advice.
It's laughable that one could bring themselfs to think that the reason a group of mostly intermediate to advanced numismatists discount that coin is because we are somehow incapable of grasping the nuances of the relatively simple and straightforward single squeeze hubbing process and tighter quality control at the mint.
The true lack of compression appears to be on the fundmentels of supply and demand and the impact that visual dynamism plays into desirability over technical variance. Even if it is technically important due to a manufacturing variance (debatable), it is assuradly not exciting or desirable from a visual or crossover collectibility aspect.
<< <i>If this is a major discovery I can only wonder what a minor discovery would be. >>
+1
<< <i>
So how have these major DDO's been doing lately?
Are they up to $500 yet?
Are they hotter than the Gold Kennedys ?
Why does it matter to you if you're not interested?
The facts:
Respected attributors, numismatic societies, and publishers, have designated this as a major single squeeze variety.
It was discovered in mid April, and to date, August, there have been no significant quantities discovered.
At least 5 uncirculated examples have sold for over $150, and only 2 circulated examples are known; one from Ebay & one from the discoverer.
Is your reason for bumping this thread simply to mock those who see this as a significant production variety?
this DDO or the 1965 double dot Lincoln.
I just want to know.
I can bid $40,000 on ebay for a stale piece of bread - but what would it mean?
Just imagine looking through thousands and thousands of the splotched up, fuggly pennies, front and back, under a hot halogen lamp, with a 10X loupe.
And with the patience of Job, desperately searching and searching. Hauling load after load back & forth from the banks, hoping to find something . . . anything to get recognized on the variety sites. Then finally after looking at 3+ gazillion barren cents, only finding spots, and about to throw in the towel . . . Eureka . . . he finds this. The spread on that 0 must have looked huge.
And his life's work is now complete . . .
. . . Well at least till 2015 ! ! !
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
<< <i> ......... under a hot halogen lamp, with a 10X loupe ..............
HH >>
Welll thanks for illustrating where the expression " gone loupey " may have come from.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire