Cheerios Dollar on eBay: Counterfeit?

SemperFI

I am very suspicious of this one. Bad photos and no US Mint Cert of Auth cardboard backing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251527723301

jmcu12

I think the dollar is real but with those photos there is no way I would even think of bidding.

jmcu12

I think I know what you were saying; You can peel them off of the card board so that you can see the back. so the lack of that card board does not necessarily mean fake.

LindeDad

This is a true case of buyer beware.

19Lyds

An examination of the reverse photo shows the SAC to be a standard Sacagawea Dollar.

Hopefully, folks don't get suckered into this.

ricko

As best as I can tell from that photograph, that is NOT the rare coin. Cheers, RickO

Onedollarnohollar

Run, Forrest, Run!

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>Run, Forrest… Sprint !!! >>





Fixed it as best I could, for ya.

Onedollarnohollar

If this was a legitimate Cheerios package it would have the original cardboard backing still attached. Now that it's been compromised calling it a Cheerios set is moot. From the pics it just

looks like a regular, non-ETF patterned, dollar.

Onedollarnohollar

look

Someone bid on this.....

CaptHenway

<< <i>look

Someone bid on this..... >>



Look at the added pictures. Note the pattern reverse.

Also note that the cent and the dollar have turned significantly in the plastic relative to the earlier pictures. This may or may not mean anything.

Perhaps somebody had one of the two-coin Cheerios sets and was curious if he had the pattern reverse, so he pulled the plastic off of the paper to see what he had, not knowing about the obverse die marker. I don't know.

TD

Onedollarnohollar

I did notice that the new pics show the patterned reverse. No return offered by the seller and significantly different pics from the original. Good luck to the buyer.

It's a fantastic coin if it's real.

Walkerfan

Crazy IMHO.

kaz

on the newer close up photos there is a black spot between the star over the D and the next star to the left. I don't see it on the earlier image of the rev. this whole think just seems fishy to me.

lostincoins

if it is real what would the value be as the auction listings on PCGS do not show much and what they do show is being sold way below listed value?

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Look at the added pictures. Note the pattern reverse. TD >>



+1

i gotta say, i don't see what the problem is?

i'm not a buyer for these but i've seen plenty of others sell for thousands.
.

eddiego

It's got a bid. Somebody thinks it's real.

johnny9434

some ones going to be disappointed

MsMorrisine

We've all been through this before


Buy, receive, SNAD to the rescue

morgansforever

IMO the close-up images show the enhanced tail feathers, but what will you receive is another question.

derryb

Reverse of 1999 diagnostics

Note that this is the first coin listing for the seller. He may not be aware that not all cheerios dollars have the "reverse of 1999."

sparky64

<< <i>Also note that the cent and the dollar have turned significantly in the plastic relative to the earlier pictures. This may or may not mean anything. >>


I would take a lot of fiddling to get those coins rotated almost 180 degrees within the packaging.
Those are two different items to me.

lostincoins

Looking at sales pricing is not good anyway as all listed on PCGS are much lower than listed values.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
so what is the biggest concern here.

1. seller sends different item
2. the coin isn't the pattern reverse
3. these coins have been re-sealed but can still contain the pattern rev
edited to add 4. sac is fake
.

TwoSides2aCoin

If it shows up with boldly detailed tail feathers…. the eagle has landed for someone.
If not, it might just be a turkey shoot. Added pictures created more doubt, rather than instilled confidence for reasons and inquiries previously addressed here.
C'est la vie. Good luck to someone.

lostincoins

I asked for pis of the obverse then flip to the right and was told pics are posted. Makes me think they are 2 different set as stated above....

AKFlyer

None of the articles I have read give the number of "Reverse of 1999" Cheerios Dollars vs the ordinary reverse Cheerios Dollars.

Were 5500 of the Cheerios Dollars "Reverse of 1999" examples?
Or is 5500 the total number of Cheerios Dollars with both types included?

giantsfan20

The cheerios dollar promotion also included a one cent coin as well? or just the dollar?

oih82w8

<< <i>The cheerios dollar promotion also included a one cent coin as well? or just the dollar? >>



From what I remember, there were two cards available; one with just the cent and one with both dollar and cent.

Rampage

<< <i>

<< <i>The cheerios dollar promotion also included a one cent coin as well? or just the dollar? >>


From what I remember, there were two cards available; one with just the cent and one with both dollar and cent. >>


That is correct.

derryb

<< <i>

<< <i>The cheerios dollar promotion also included a one cent coin as well? or just the dollar? >>



From what I remember, there were two cards available; one with just the cent and one with both dollar and cent. >>


Buyers of the specially marked ceral box knew they were getting the penney and hoping to have one of the 5,500 boxes that randomly both coins. Read a story of a collector who used a metal detector to determine which had the dollar before he bought the box.

derryb

<< <i>None of the articles I have read give the number of "Reverse of 1999" Cheerios Dollars vs the ordinary reverse Cheerios Dollars.

Were 5500 of the Cheerios Dollars "Reverse of 1999" examples?
Or is 5500 the total number of Cheerios Dollars with both types included? >>


Since all cheerios dollars are not "reverse of 1999" and 5500 sacs were included in the cheerios boxes, the number to hit the streets is less than 5500. Many of those were removed and put into circulation before the rarity became known.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>None of the articles I have read give the number of "Reverse of 1999" Cheerios Dollars vs the ordinary reverse Cheerios Dollars.

Were 5500 of the Cheerios Dollars "Reverse of 1999" examples?
Or is 5500 the total number of Cheerios Dollars with both types included? >>


Since all cheerios dollars are not "reverse of 1999" and 5500 sacs were included in the cheerios boxes, the number to hit the streets is less than 5500. Many of those were removed and put into circulation before the rarity became known. >>



There were 2 shipments made to General Mills from the U.S. Mint for this "Millennium Celebration".
My suspicion is the "first" shipment contained 500 Boldly detailed tail feathered specimens and the second shipment contained 5000.
My hypothesis is based on simple suppositions.

The mint director changed the design and the mint was under the gun for delivery. There was enough just enough time left to do a "short" order and fill the rest , later.

History might support this theory since it's been 14 years and there are still less than 100 accounted for. If there were a base camp for reporting I could claim 1.

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>None of the articles I have read give the number of "Reverse of 1999" Cheerios Dollars vs the ordinary reverse Cheerios Dollars.

Were 5500 of the Cheerios Dollars "Reverse of 1999" examples?
Or is 5500 the total number of Cheerios Dollars with both types included? >>


Since all cheerios dollars are not "reverse of 1999" and 5500 sacs were included in the cheerios boxes, the number to hit the streets is less than 5500. Many of those were removed and put into circulation before the rarity became known. >>



There were 2 shipments made to General Mills from the U.S. Mint for this "Millennium Celebration".
My suspicion is the "first" shipment contained 500 Boldly detailed tail feathered specimens and the second shipment contained 5000.
My hypothesis is based on simple suppositions.

The mint director changed the design and the mint was under the gun for delivery. There was enough just enough time left to do a "short" order and fill the rest , later.

History might support this theory since it's been 14 years and there are still less than 100 accounted for. If there were a base camp for reporting I could claim 1. >>



The Mint Director did not order the design change. Tom Rogers told me that he changed the design at the last minute, removing the detailing from the tail feathers to make them appear "white" as on the tail of a real bald eagle. He made a few other changes at the same time.

He was not aware that coins had already been struck and shipped. The Mint's Marketing Dept. was not aware that the design had not yet been finalized.

As to how many of the pattern dollars were struck, I don't know. I strongly suspect that they made 5,500 for General Mills, since General Mills knew well in advance how many coins they needed, but suspect that part of the run was returned due to the spotting that was rampant on the early business strikes. The Mint had a lot of trouble with that new alloy spotting. What happened to these hypothetical returns I do not know.

I do know that I saw a piece with the pattern reverse at the vending machine industry press conference in Chicago in October of 1999. That's how I knew when I saw the normal ones in January of 2000 that the design had been changed. How many were struck for that press conference (we got to see a mint spokesman put several of them into vending machines to prove that they worked) I do not know, nor do I know what happened to them.

TD

lostincoins

By doing a comparison of all the pics and the positions of the coins I would say with a 98% certainty that 2 different coins were photographed. Would someone have grounds for a fraud case if 2 sets were not delivered because of the absence of a written description? The pics have to stand for the description, this guy is just trying to scam someone. What protections would you have paying with a credit card through paypal?

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>look

Someone bid on this..... >>



Look at the added pictures. Note the pattern reverse.

Also note that the cent and the dollar have turned significantly in the plastic relative to the earlier pictures. This may or may not mean anything.

Perhaps somebody had one of the two-coin Cheerios sets and was curious if he had the pattern reverse, so he pulled the plastic off of the paper to see what he had, not knowing about the obverse die marker. I don't know.

TD >>

The added pictures sure changes the landscape BUT Picture number two does not appear to be the pattern reverse.

lostincoins

I have put this up on my 60" hd TV and you are right that pic 2 is the non pattern dollar. Absolutely 2 different coins pictured.

lostincoins

$7,079.99
Final so who bought it?

AKFlyer

$7,079.99 is cheap for a coin (if genuine) that will certainly go up, up, up in the future.

I started to bid on the coin myself but chickened out--I don't know how good the "buyer protection" really is.

Edited to add: The seller did answer all my questions as quickly as he could. He had many inquiries... (no surprise, he had virtually no details in the auction.)
The coin had been removed from the packaging and put back. Seller guaranteed that the coin in the pictures was the coin he would ship.

If the seller had been "more savvy-er" about the way he presented this coin, the price would have been way higher. He left between 8 and 12 thousand dollars on the table.

lostincoins

i bid on it my self but did not have enough, oh well some one got a good deal if it is the right set, could be a you suck!

mbogoman

<< <i>i bid on it my self but did not have enough, oh well some one got a good deal if it is the right set, could be a you suck! >>



Too close to its real value to even qualify for "you suck" consideration. Gotta have a lot more percentage profit to be suckworthy!!!

lostincoins

This set has sold as high as 34000.00 pretty big margin

mbogoman

Most recent sale in Heritage archives (Aug 2013) was $4112.50 for an NGC graded MS67. The previous three went off at $6462, $4259 and $5060 - all graded examples. I think these are a better example of value. $34,000??? Where and when? The saying about "A fool and his money..." comes to mind...

Edit to add: In my humble opinion, whoever "won" this auction actually lost. For one thing, we don't even know if it really is the real deal. That's an awful lot of money for a question mark. And even if it is the real McCoy, the price was above recent major auction values. Again, JMHO...

LanceNewmanOCC

<< <i>Most recent sale in Heritage archives (Aug 2013) was $4112.50 for an NGC graded MS67. The previous three went off at $6462, $4259 and $5060 - all graded examples. I think these are a better example of value. $34,000??? Where and when? The saying about "A fool and his money..." comes to mind...

Edit to add: In my humble opinion, whoever "won" this auction actually lost. For one thing, we don't even know if it really is the real deal. That's an awful lot of money for a question mark. And even if it is the real McCoy, the price was above recent major auction values. Again, JMHO... >>



the question about perceived value is, which brings more the chicken or the egg. (graded vs sealed)

as for 34,000. has to be a top pop or one of the first known sets. i've seen magnificent premiums assigned to first "known" and/or first few known for various items/varieties. nothing like braggin' rights! or some people just enjoy keeping it to themselves. i've sold customers some neat items that they probably only maybe told a couple people at most. they tend to be the people that buy survival rarity items that are undervalued and they enjoy knowing they aren't buying things that are hyped and enjoying not having to pay for it as well. to each their own. ok, i digress. time for bed.
.

lostincoins

I will get you prices in a bit but you need to remember to get prices for the set not just the Sac! This makes a big difference in the value. I know this was 2008 but it is for a set not just the dollar.

Text

mbogoman

<< <i> I will get you prices in a bit but you need to remember to get prices for the set not just the Sac! This makes a big difference in the value. I know this was 2008 but it is for a set not just the dollar >>



That $34k price is NOT because it is in a set!!!!! It is because it is the Top Pop, highest graded example at PCGS!!! Somebody clearly paid up for it - there was probably a bidding war between a few deep pockets. FYI - There is an NGC MS68 in the current Heritage auction which ties it for the highest graded - watch it and see what it goes for. That will give a good idea of the current value - for an MS68...

The coin is the Ebay auction certainly did not look like it would challenge either of these MS68s. It was a raw coin and if real would likely fall in the MS65+- range...

One more thing if I remember correctly...back in August of last year somebody picked up a set for around $9 BIN on Ebay. THAT was definitely suckworthy!!!

lostincoins

Yes they did but that to me is beyond a you suck as it was a straight rip but hey who would not take advantage of that deal....

lostincoins

According to the seller a dealer who posts on here bought the set, if someone did let us know if it's the good dollar.