What are your thoughts on this toning?

relicsncoins

NT, AT? If NT, what caused this sort of toning?

erwindoc

Looks cleaned and retoned naturally to me, perhaps in an album?

AUandAG

NT Old envelope?

magikbilly

Hello,

Glossy; looks a lot like some Benson coins that were cleaned long ago and album stored. My .02.


Eric

Edit to changed "cleansed" to "cleaned"

coindeuce

Has the look of long time occupying an ANACS Classic holder, or possibly long term storage in a Whitman bookshelf album.

Justacommeman

Cleaned. re-toned and put in an album. The thumbprint supports that theory as well

m

CoinZip

<< <i>Looks cleaned and retoned naturally to me, perhaps in an album? >>




If cleaned = dipped in silver cleaner, then I agree....

Kove

Toned naturally, then someone wiped off the toning in the fields with their thumb.

I've submitted my fair share of these, and sometimes PCGS will gennie them, and sometimes they'll straight-grade at 62 or 63.

While that electric blue is a warning flag on many coins, those colors are very common and acceptable on the Columbian halves.

relicsncoins

BTW, the coin is straight graded in a small white ANACS holder.

Justacommeman

<< <i>Toned naturally, then someone wiped off the toning in the fields with their thumb.

I've submitted my fair share of these, and sometimes PCGS will gennie them, and sometimes they'll straight-grade at 62 or 63.

While that electric blue is a warning flag on many coins, those colors are very common and acceptable on the Columbian halves. >>



I can live with this as well

ColonelJessup

<< <i>

<< <i>Looks cleaned and retoned naturally to me, perhaps in an album? >>




If cleaned = dipped in silver cleaner, then I agree.... >>



As naturally toned as most in Benson and Newman, and don't think anything more than a (possible) lite immersion in some very mild acidic bath and a long rest period in album or envelope storaqe.

Totally acceptable to 99% of American numismatists outside the Forum, and quite lovely. I would pay NT money for it. It's NOT going to "turn".

Be as numismatically and/or chemically and/or philosophically convinced and/or precise as you might like to be. Then get over it. Fat chance. . .

Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail, but I may be overcompensating in my irritation at people for whom a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

On the other hand, I will honor RickO's opinion as to whether or not it would be a better coin if it were dipped (possibly) again. He's applied the scientific method rather than rank paranoia. And yes, something very close to this scheme can be induced/produced artificially. The toning halos around the devices and lettering cannot, at least among my friends in low places, be replicated or easily reproduced over a short time frame. Just because it might be, doesn't mean it is. Correlation beyond coincidence is not equivalent to causation.

coindeuce

<< <i>BTW, the coin is straight graded in a small white ANACS holder. >>



I knew I stood a chance of being correct on that point. Silver type with this toning is often seen in the early ANACS Classic holders, and has been commonly attributed to the chemical properties of the insert labels used at that time. Here is a MS-62 1878 8TF Morgan in a Classic ANACS holder with nearly identical toning pattern and colors:



And yet another:

erwindoc

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Looks cleaned and retoned naturally to me, perhaps in an album? >>




If cleaned = dipped in silver cleaner, then I agree.... >>



As naturally toned as most in Benson and Newman, and don't think anything more than a (possible) lite immersion in some very mild acidic bath and a long rest period in album or envelope storaqe.

Totally acceptable to 99% of American Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail, but I may be overcompensating in my irritation at people for whom a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.q]

Ouch! Nobody likes comments like these. Not quite sure what it has to do with the question by the OP.

AMRC

Not attractive to me.

kaz

I think dipped and retoned in album, envelope or the ANACs holder (the latter a new concept for me). I think it looks very nice and would be happy to have it!

ColonelJessup

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Looks cleaned and retoned naturally to me, perhaps in an album? >>




If cleaned = dipped in silver cleaner, then I agree.... >>



As naturally toned as most in Benson and Newman, and don't think anything more than a (possible) lite immersion in some very mild acidic bath and a long rest period in album or envelope storaqe.

Totally acceptable to 99% of American Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail, but I may be overcompensating in my irritation at people for whom a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. >>



Ouch! Nobody likes comments like these. Not quite sure what it has to do with the question by the OP. >>

.

Nobody likes to pay their taxes either.

I'm assuming that the OP wanted a good answer. That includes the exclusion of lower-quality information. How many here have supplied what they "know" absent any use of the scientific method? Note I recommend looking at the opinions of RickO, someone with whom I often disagree about toning. His thoughts are informed by experience and intellectual rigor, not driven by the paranoiac non-nuances of the numismatic BATTLE WITH DARKNESS.

I figure those most sensitive to criticism and likely to be offended are karmically predisposed towards a vulnerability to snark. Pain and disappointment? Inevitable. And I'm a short-term sadist. While a piss-poor Buddhist, my long-term plan is to make suffering optional.

Doctors also think they're God. . .

When not involved doing Robin Williams or Rodney Dangerfield, I aspire to Bill Maher or George Carlin.

morgansforever

This is one of many with similar toning. Very well could have spent time in an old ANACS holder, JMO.

tradedollarnut

Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail....

Damn, I was thinking more like 61....even for ANACS!

erwindoc

<< <i>Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail....

Damn, I was thinking more like 61....even for ANACS! >>



Guess you're not an expert collector either. LOL.

ColonelJessup

<< <i>Looks like an easy 65, even with cheekbone and neck tick, and left of top sail....

Damn, I was thinking more like 61....even for ANACS! >>



You're better at pictures than I am. How much would you pay? $50? $100? $150? $250?

What odds are you offering on which numismatic sugar cube the numismatic fly would land upon? Even money on a 62? 2-1 for a 63? 6-1 for a 64? 25-1 on a 65? That would be current grading, not the ancient ANACS grade. Maybe it would be a 66 if there was less rub on the cheekbone. Would you take the 5-1 odds I'm offering it's at least a 63 CAC?

But that's you and me in our pissing contest, really a private indulgence (like Godiva chocolate) on our parts. Essentially off-topic except to popcorn eaters. . . .

It's the toning that's relevant. Your thoughts on the originality of the fingerprint?

magikbilly

<< <i>What odds are you offering on which numismatic sugar cube the numismatic fly would land upon? >>




You've seen what the fly does after it lands?
Not sure how to work that into this equation.

Eric

ricko

While this coin indicates a natural toning, the distribution (i.e. tarnish in the hair and other recessive spots) indicate a prior dipping, leaving some residues that reacted while the high points that received a more judicious removal of said deposits remained relatively clear. I have seen this type of pattern on some of my earlier experimental coins - albeit not exactly. There are so many methods (both intentional and unintentional) that are applied to coins that it is almost impossible to test them all..... and those who practice this dark art for profit are always pursuing new methods. Overall, I would call this coin NT after an early dip....Cheers, RickO

mommam17

To me, it does not look like a nice original coin. Not sure what happened to it??

TwoSides2aCoin

When I see the colors in the coin that look like it could get scraped off or might fall off if the coin is dropped, I say natural baby, natural.

LindeDad

Like the tone but not the print even if it's part of the pattern.

relicsncoins

The coin is graded MS63 in the small white ANACS type holder.

Kove

<< <i>The coin is graded MS63 in the small white ANACS type holder. >>



I'm fine with the toning and the 63 straight-grade. I'd leave the coin in that holder, though (and I strongly suspect that you will!)

krueger

Looks like blue toning is natural around the inside of the rims.

Looks like to me the orange toning is AT splashed on. There is even a finger print consisting of orange toning.
In a class I took from Rick Montgomery ( President at NGC ,Grader at NGC, President at PCGS, Grader at PCGS, Director at ANACS, Authenticator at ANACS )
Wherein he stated that he sees a lot of AT applied over real toning to enhance the look/ eye appeal. This can really confuse the issue of AT or natural.

Krueger

TwoSides2aCoin

Tell ya what causes toning in the periphery, evenly like that…. But you won't believe it. A simple album. No magic there. Time and a lonely place. The transference of dye from folders, flips, envelopes, etc… Eventually silver goes black. I can't see any reason why this process over time is difficult to conceptualize for so many. Paranoia, maybe ? Good doctors, perhaps ?

I've seen toning on coins in my few short years in enough containers, matchboxes, folders, bags, etc., to say with certainty what causes it. Some say improper storage. Some say what they want. What I've seen, I usually don't say. And that says a lot for a guy with as many trivial posts as I have.

ColonelJessup

<< <i>...... Paranoia, maybe ? Good doctors, perhaps ? .... >>



Mark Teller, a long time LA area darkside dealer, is an psychiatrist. Some here might find him useful. . . . .

For clarification: He is a doctor who is a coin dealer, not a coin dealer who is a doctor. . . . .

For another example of this toning effect, I refer you to a particular 1901-S 25c.

Originally a dove-gray PCGS 66, it was dipped blast white by Magic Mark and slabbed 68 by NGC in 1989. Over time it developed a very similar toning scheme in the very early NGC holder.

It crossed a few years ago. Now it's THE 1901-S 25c MS68+ PCGS,CAC. Image on CoinFacts. Sold for a bit under 300K to David Lawrence in a Stacks sale a couple of years ago. I believe it resold soon afterwards to a forum member

Bochiman

Dipped, holder toned (choose a holder).

magikbilly

<< <i>

<< <i>...... Paranoia, maybe ? Good doctors, perhaps ? .... >>



Mark Teller, a long time LA area darkside dealer, is an psychiatrist. Some here might find him useful. . . . .

For clarification: He is a doctor who is a coin dealer, not a coin dealer who is a doctor. . . . .

For another example of this toning effect, I refer you to a particular 1901-S 25c.

Originally a dove-gray PCGS 66, it was dipped blast white by Magic Mark and slabbed 68 by NGC in 1989. Over time it developed a very similar toning scheme in the very early NGC holder.

It crossed a few years ago. Now it's THE 1901-S 25c MS68+ PCGS,CAC. Image on CoinFacts. Sold for a bit under 300K to David Lawrence in a Stacks sale a couple of years ago. I believe it resold soon afterwards to a forum member >>




Well, that was a much more interesting read the second time around

Eric

WTCG

Album toning, perhaps not "old growth" toning. The current toning is likely retoning that came after a whitening job performed a long time ago. To the vast majority of the numismatic world that coin would be considered market acceptable.

DIMEMAN

I don't see the cleaning from these pics. I like the coin myself.

ElKevvo

I like the toning on this one...and I am not generally a big fan of toning. This has nice colors and is not too overpowering.

K

lkeigwin

<< <i>Dipped, holder toned (choose a holder). >>

My opinion too, FWIW.
Lance.