1922 High Relief: No TrueView?
coindudeonebay
Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
Would you really believe these went through PCGS' doors without Phil spending a giddy amount of time with them under the lens? Yet I can't find the trueviews....
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Hoard the keys
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>To be honest, I like both of them very much! The 67 is just impeccable, the 64 has character and makes it look more High relief than the 67. I wouldn't kick either out of bed!! >>
since you mention it. here are links for those that want to get intimate after the lights go out.
i'll go ahead and host these 2 monsters since they'll load much faster from my hosting.
OH - MY
.
Eric
AWESOME pics.
Eric
Look at the lower right of the "N" in "ONE."
One is pointed and the other is flat-bottomed.
Look at "oF" on each
The obverse has slight differences, too.
The point on the bust on the 9 and over the 9
The detail from the tip of the nose over the nostril and back to the cheek.
The first T in TRVST - the right-side top is angled more on the 64 than the 67.
<< <i>Would you really believe these went through PCGS' doors without Phil spending a giddy amount of time with them under the lens? Yet I can't find the trueviews.... >>
The photos posted are both CoinFacts photos - shot the same way as TrueView but without the background.
<< <i>I'd say there's 2 different dies
Look at the lower right of the "N" in "ONE."
One is pointed and the other is flat-bottomed.
Look at "oF" on each >>
That's what I am saying
There are several observable differences. One interesting difference is the "C"'s in America - the tail is pointed on one.
Eric
(Will the mint want these back, too?
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
<< <i>I'd say there's 2 different dies
Look at the lower right of the "N" in "ONE."
One is pointed and the other is flat-bottomed. >>
You know what they say about flat bottoms, they make the rockin world go round!
<< <i>Would you really believe these went through PCGS' doors without Phil spending a giddy amount of time with them under the lens? Yet I can't find the trueviews.... >>
He only TrueViews coins at the submitter's request. I don't think this service is ever complimentary, no matter the coin's value.
For CoinFacts purposes, however, the coin can be photographed free of charge. These are the photos you see with the plain, white background.
Three YN's from the last two ANA Summer Seminars have been texting
back and forth since this Thread opened up. All excited at the discovery.
The incessant texting also makes all my IPads and IPhones go crazy chirping
and chiming. Having gone to sleep at 10:30, I was woken at 1:30 with all
the noise.
This Thread was their excuse.
Being woken to see these two wonderful coins was worth it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Eric
<< <i>To be honest, I like both of them very much! The 67 is just impeccable, the 64 has character and makes it look more High relief than the 67. I wouldn't kick either out of bed!! >>
Kinda have to agree with you. Per the photo the 67 actually looks washed out though probably as a result of being a matte proof which likely does not take well to being photographed.
<< <i>I was really thrilled when these came through my office. No way would something like these not be photographed. >>
Phil, please tell us the whole story, you can't just say "these came through my office". That's just wrong to leave it like that!!
Best Regards,
George
Can you imagine the beauty of this series if production coins could have been produced with this degree of strike and in high relief? That lettering is SHARP!
I may sacrifice a lamb to Plutus or peel an orange for Ganesh for not allowing these pieces to be made into a belt buckle in the 1950s or melted in the 1980s. A 90+ year old PR67?
Sick!
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>
<< <i>I was really thrilled when these came through my office. No way would something like these not be photographed. >>
Phil, please tell us the whole story, you can't just say "these came through my office". That's just wrong to leave it like that!! >>
Phil/PCGSPhoto is Phil Arnold who takes the TrueView's.
<< <i>
<< <i>I was really thrilled when these came through my office. No way would something like these not be photographed. >>
Phil, please tell us the whole story, you can't just say "these came through my office". That's just wrong to leave it like that!! >>
PCGS blog post part 2!
"The two coins are from different reverse dies: The PR64 coin uses the 1921 HR reverse, and the PR67 uses the HR 1922 reverse. The two are completely different. These are described in the Guide Book for Peace Dollars. The 1922 HR with 1921 reverse was identified by NGC's David Lange on a circulation strike 1922 HR piece.
It would have benefited Goldbergs and PCGS if they had read the book, or at least consulted someone who had researched the series."
Besides previously noted ::
Note the W in We, potentially G in God, and the leftmost portion of the crown curves down towards the forehead on the 64 and is more straight on the 67
All these really COOL Coin Finds coming out of the State of California!
The name is LEE!
"IN GOD" The left leg of the "N" is pointed on the bottom right. There is some slight difference in the "G" in "GOD" but that could be be a better strike.
Point of the bust and the 9. Again, this could be solely from being a better strike but it certainly looks different.
"TRVST" too many differences here to list and definitely more well defined on the 64.
And lastly the face. The cheek and chin are obviously more full on the PR64, as well as the eye socket being more sunken. There also appears to be a die marker in the field parallel to the nose.
<< <i>The obverse dies are also different
Besides previously noted ::
Note the W in We, potentially G in God, and the leftmost portion of the crown curves down towards the forehead on the 64 and is more straight on the 67 >>
I believe they were struck from the same dies. The differences you are seeing are due to toning obscuring the devices on the PR64 example.
<< <i>
<< <i>The obverse dies are also different
Besides previously noted ::
Note the W in We, potentially G in God, and the leftmost portion of the crown curves down towards the forehead on the 64 and is more straight on the 67 >>
I believe they were struck from the same dies. The differences you are seeing are due to toning obscuring the devices on the PR64 example. >>
it's a little bit of that.
there's a little bit of strike doubling on the 64 that messes with things
there's some shadowing stuff going on
and there's some potential .jpg issues going on or something with the photos. I could swear there is a flat spot on the tiara on the 67 that is curved on the 64. However, looking at the "max" images, it simply is not there.
super huge MAX image of the 64
super huge MAX image of the 67
I still can't explain the puffiness around the nose and chin. Is it possible striking pressure differences created this? Or is it imagination differences?
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Great research on the variations.
<< <i>Sadly, the auction catalog has been published with the incorrect attribution. That is guaranteed to confuse bidders and distort the historical record. The 1922HR/rev 1921 coins were failed trial strikes made on a toggle press and are very rare - 3-4 known. Unless the published description and PCGS's attribution are corrected before the sale, the early Peace dollar situation will only be further confused.
(Disclaimer: I discovered documentation and other information that established the present knowledge about early Peace dollars and the experiments relating to them. Much of this was published in 2005 in "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921." David Lange first identified the 1922HR/rev 1921 trial strike coin based on my earlier description. R.W. Julian discovered the initial indications of trial production in the 1960s.) >>
<< <i>This has been a fascinating thread. >>
Yup, as has the corresponding thread ATS. I also put a close-up of some of the reverse die markers of the PR64 on the thread on VAMWorld to see if anyone can identify a reverse used on 1921 business strikes. Not having all the coins, I can only check the pictures for a match, and couldn't find one. Even if a 1921 business strike reverse die was reused for the PR64, reconditioning (i.e., polishing) may have changed all the die markers, anyway.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>It would seem strange for two die pairs and so few coins known. >>
Not if produced during two different periods for two different reasons.
Our host made their decision on these long ago. IIRC, from the very start.
I've spoken (quite a few years ago, when Jack Lee and I thought, on fabric, that we might have one) to Rick Montgomery ATS. Translating from memory and not necessarily technically correct on my part, but I'll say that what I took away from the conversation was that, because of what I interpreted as the "anomalous" nature of the dies, they had stopped attributing a Satin Roof designation. That's for the '21 Satins, and likely unpredictive of TPG response to other esoteric emissions of that time.
These 22's apparently "carry their own credentials" ((fabric again) and been otherwise verified sufficiently, else PCGS wouldn't assume the financial risk of attributing them.