1805 Draped Bust Half with partially missing edge lettering (updated)

maibockaddict

My site has been updated with tombless pics. Check it out! (follow the link)

1805 O-112

I took some pics of some edges recently and figured that I would show them here. This does not look as if the rim was filed but opinions welcome!


Starting at the top and moving clockwise





For comparison, and 1803 O-102a edge
1803 O-102a

TommyType

My first guess would be that the lettering was lightly impressed, then worn off.

But that would probably imply a weak strike, while the obverse/reverse look pretty well struck (wear taken into account).


Added: (In a fit of "Doh!")

Scratch that. Believe the lettering is put on the coin BEFORE striking...so the strike of the actual coin probably has nothing to do with it.

CoinJunkie

Given the primitive minting processes of the era, edge lettering is often missing or irregular.
Rim was not filed.

ricko

Worn, perhaps unevenly pressed....not uncommon..Cheers, RickO

Baley

Very nice example of this common marriage. Not unusual to have edge lettering errors/ omissions.

maibockaddict

I should add that part of my curiosity is due to the strength and sharpness of the milling. The castaing machine is what is used to not only impress the edge letters, but to raise up the rims a bit so that milling can be imparted, or at least that was how it was explained to me. Which is why I wonder how it has perfect milling yet almost no edge lettering.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>I should add that part of my curiosity is due to the strength and sharpness of the milling. The castaing machine is what is used to not only impress the edge letters, but to raise up the rims a bit so that milling can be imparted, or at least that was how it was explained to me. Which is why I wonder how it has perfect milling yet almost no edge lettering. >>


WAG: Perhaps the lettering on the collar was worn from use.

JRocco

That is curious.
The milling is strong around the date where the edge lettering is weak/non-existent.
The castaing machine has raised lettering that leaves incuse letters on the blank, so it wouldn't be from a filled die situation.
Interesting.

lkeigwin

Very nice 1805, Dave. I like that.

I don't think the rims were shaved. It's just another example of mediocre edge lettering. For the kids running the castaing machine is was just another mcjob.
Lance.

maibockaddict

Thanks for checking it out guys. The more I think about it, the best thing to do is compare with other examples. If anyone has more info, this thread is here....

slumlord98

Dave, Note how rounded the edge is where the lettering is missing. I don't know if it was filed but it sure is round there which is conclusive. 112s have strong lettering and square edges due to the fact that a new set of edge letters was employed beginning with this marriage. That the dentils are strong there is is coincidental; dentils are imparted by the obverse and reverse dies while edge lettering is applied by edge dies.

maibockaddict

<< <i>Dave, Note how rounded the edge is where the lettering is missing. I don't know if it was filed but it sure is round there which is conclusive. 112s have strong lettering and square edges due to the fact that a new set of edge letters was employed beginning with this marriage. That the dentils are strong there is is coincidental; dentils are imparted by the obverse and reverse dies while edge lettering is applied by edge dies. >>



The edge doesn't appear to have been messed with as far as I can tell, but I have never viewed a filed rim before. Could this be the last coin struck with the old dies, perhaps one of the first 112's, then each after this has a fresh set of edge dies?

johnny9434

whats the grade on the bust half?

maibockaddict

<< <i>whats the grade on the bust half? >>



There is a link to it at the top...but VF20 (I personally think its a 30)

slumlord98

Dave,

Most unlikely IMHO but I'd have to see the coin out of the slab to say with certainty what the issue is. I once had a 14 101 with very similar looking edge and showed it to Henry who quickly concluded that it had been 'messed with'. Not his exact words but the point was communicated.

The edge die used from 1801 thru 1804 was last used on 1805 O.113. It was still legible but worn. O.112s show very sharp lettering with horizontal reeding visible on high grade specimens. If you have a similar grade O.113 and are willing to crack them out you would be able to tell for certain, but that would only demonstrate which edge your coin is sporting rather than answer your initial question. I say it is uneven wear; it is the simplest and most likely explanation.

Brad

maibockaddict

<< <i>Dave,

Most unlikely IMHO but I'd have to see the coin out of the slab to say with certainty what the issue is. I once had a 14 101 with very similar looking edge and showed it to Henry who quickly concluded that it had been 'messed with'. Not his exact words but the point was communicated.

The edge die used from 1801 thru 1804 was last used on 1805 O.113. It was still legible but worn. O.112s show very sharp lettering with horizontal reeding visible on high grade specimens. If you have a similar grade O.113 and are willing to crack them out you would be able to tell for certain, but that would only demonstrate which edge your coin is sporting rather than answer your initial question. I say it is uneven wear; it is the simplest and most likely explanation.

Brad >>



I actually had the opportunity to show this to Henry, but he said it would really need to be cracked. I would think that the coin wouldn't fit so snugly in the holder if it had been filed down enough to remove lettering....and the milling would be thinner or even damaged.

jdillane

I have a bust dollar with a strikingly similar edge. The diameter is larger than most if not all of the other bust dollars Ive had. Some have opined that the rim was tapped likely with a spoon as an initial step used to turn the coin into a ring. Otherwise the surfaces seem fine. I haven't sent it in to our hosts but might just to see what they think.

Notice that the rim, from about 5 - 9 on both the obv and rev shows a ridge where perhaps the edge had collapsed a bit from some sort of force applied. My bust dollar's rims as I recall have this ridge as well pretty much completely around the coin. And mine has no edge lettering whatsoever.

maibockaddict

I got the coin upgraded to a VF 25 at NGC and with skinnier prongs. Will re-photograph soon. There seems to be a little "corner" around the rim on both sides outside the milling...hope to capture it better.

LindeDad

That dang kid had too much beer with lunch again.

maibockaddict

I updated my site with images of the cracked coin, so for those interested click the link

1805 O-112