Well, the DC mimics have filtered into our shop.
keets
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We had an elderly collector come into the shop this morning. Among the odds-and-ends that made up his collection was a 2009 "Proofed Overstrike" ASE in a nice, plush black velvet case, complete in a holder which mimics the PCGS holder and even has a hologram. All in all I think it's enough to fool an unsophisticated collector/investor and it sort of pisses me off. Oh well, let the games continue.
Al H.
Al H.
0
Comments
I don't think the holder looks like a PCGS holder. It does't say "PCGS" on it.
The holders do say:
(front)
2009 DC*
Proofed Overstrike 1oz
Mint State Silver Eagle
Privately Minted
(back)
*Each overstrike was created
using an actual retired Denver
Mint coin press owned and
operated by numismatic
sculptor Daniel Carr.
For identification purposes
a "DC" mark was added to the
reverse of the coin.
I don't think that wording would fool anyone.
PS:
Issue price was around $90 to $100.
Recent eBay actual sales have been in the $150 to $250 range
(some a few higher than that even).
the operative word(s) in my post were unsophisticated collector/investor.
Look at the silver Eagle in the middle of the photo
peacockcoins
<< <i>I don't think that wording would fool anyone.
the operative word(s) in my post were unsophisticated collector/investor. >>
Might turn out to be, unsophisticated buyer/employee.
peacockcoins
<< <i>Did you buy it ? If so, what did you pay for it ? >>
Did you at least pay melt for it?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>We had an elderly collector come into the shop this morning. Among the odds-and-ends that made up his collection was a 2009 "Proofed Overstrike" ASE in a nice, plush black velvet case, complete in a holder which mimics the PCGS holder and even has a hologram. All in all I think it's enough to fool an unsophisticated collector/investor and it sort of pisses me off. Oh well, let the games continue.
Al H. >>
Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is.
aside to Braddick-----nice pot shot, Pat.
I apologize.
I overreacted to what I perceived was a shot at Daniel Carr.
peacockcoins
Fair enough.
peacockcoins
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Pat, the only "shot" I would take at Dan is to say that I believe he is far, far too talented and skilled to be doing these types of things. >>
Well said
But you certainly don't have to answer if you don't want to.
PS:
I just came out with some new items of my own design (one of my nicer ones, I think).
And I also just issued a new over-struck coin type. I like to do both (and neither is easy).
<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle.
<< <i>I think it's pretty cool that they have infiltrated coin collections. I hope the seller received a fair price for the item. I wish I had purchased one when they were offered. >>
These appear to have appreciated quite nicely and I hope the collector was told how much these are worth now.
<< <i>I suppose we can debate semantics, but it isn't an American Silver Eagle. >>
I guess it depends on the definition of "is". For certain, at the very least, it was an American Silver Eagle.
<< <i>I don't think that wording would fool anyone.
the operative word(s) in my post were unsophisticated collector/investor. >>
I'd think an "unsophisticated collector/investor" would not know what a PCGS slab is either. PCSG/NGC/ANACS or CoinWorld slabs for that matter would all be the same to them.
my point exactly, they could easily fall prey to someone.
<< <i>I'd think an "unsophisticated collector/investor" would not know.................
my point exactly, they could easily fall prey to someone. >>
golly, it seems that a proofed 2009 business strike is worth more than a real 2008 or 2010 proof.
how is this item somehow more dangerous than the caveat emptor that exists throughout the entire coin business?
Scant are the details (apparently easy to report, but withheld) on what the walk in customer paid, what he thought he had, what offer was made by the shop, and what the shop told him about the item?
This sounds like a tempest in a teapot from the peanut gallery
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Joe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle. >>
We have a lovely penny arcade out in Manitou Springs, just west of here. If I take a 1955-S cent and roll it in one of the penny roller machines, is it still a 1955-S cent?
<< <i>
<< <i>Pat, the only "shot" I would take at Dan is to say that I believe he is far, far too talented and skilled to be doing these types of things. >>
Well said >>
I agree also, and it IS well said. To have the talent to produce items that so closely resemble the genuine article (I know that in '09 there were no official U.S. Mint produced proof ASE's), it just begs for this when an undereducated 'collector' winds up with one. Only a matter of time until the '64-D Peace overstrikes start showing up at the counters. Personally, where these are NOT U.S. Mint produced coins, it's my belief that all that needs to be said is 'it's not an authentic/genuine U.S. coin', and there is no need to further explain anything. If a genuine U.S. coin comes to the counter, that's when a full explanation of value should be discussed, as regardless of condition/damage, there are always some that would collect it, perhaps as a 'hole filler', or because the collector doesn't have deep enough pockets to obtain a problem free example.
And, yes, I have purchased his overstrikes, but have since sold them off (and yes, I have done well on reselling them), as my thoughts are, if something happens to me, or if they get stolen, those 'overstrikes' or the 'fantasy' coins that resemble authentic U.S. Mint struck coins, should they get separated from the flips I.D.'ing them as what they actually are, and wind up in the hands of someone who DOESN'T know what they are, well, it's eventually going to hit the fan. I still love some of his work, but I'm sticking to items that do NOT resemble U.S. coins in any way. I know, I am missing out on future flipping profits, (I've sold mine off strictly to forum members, so I'm comfortable knowing the person I sold to knows what they really are), but I can't fathom what'll happen when these are separated from their flips and wind up in the hands of those who do think they are real. There are some B&M guys who will not know they aren't genuine, and that's when things will get very interesting. JMHO.
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<< <i>I'd think an "unsophisticated collector/investor" would not know.................
my point exactly, they could easily fall prey to someone. >>
golly, it seems that a proofed 2009 business strike is worth more than a real 2008 or 2010 proof.
how is this item somehow more dangerous than the caveat emptor that exists throughout the entire coin business?
Scant are the details (apparently easy to report, but withheld) on what the walk in customer paid, what he thought he had, what offer was made by the shop, and what the shop told him about the item?
This sounds like a tempest in a teapot from the peanut gallery >>
I agree. The old fool ended up with something more valuable than like he or many of us would have thought. We should make sure that this never happens to him again and steer him instead to baked/puttied/turned gold coins in old holders, overgraded classic commems, and MS-70 common date modern commems, where he won't hurt himself.
<< <i>I'd think an "unsophisticated collector/investor" would not know.................
my point exactly, they could easily fall prey to someone. >>
Yup. And then someone could sell them the Brooklyn Bridge. You can't protect people from their own stupidity and greed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd think an "unsophisticated collector/investor" would not know.................
my point exactly, they could easily fall prey to someone. >>
Yup. And then someone could sell them the Brooklyn Bridge. You can't protect people from their own stupidity and greed. >>
Quite a difference between someone buying a knockoff coin (that's what they are to me), thinking they are getting a real 2009 proof SAE (since the series has plenty of proofs and not everyone knows everything about them like most on these boards do), and trying to buy a bridge...particularly the Brooklyn (Golden Gate, etc) Bridge.
To call someone stupid or greedy because of it is just rude and mean-spirited itself.
In the case of the "coin" mentioned in the OP, it doesn't sound like greediness at all, particularly since he went in thinking it was one thing but it is something else worth more. Always easier to call others stupid or greedy though, particularly if they are naïve and don't live 24/7 on these forums like many of us, right?
Just like a friend of mine must have been "stupid" and "greedy" when he bought some "old silver dollars" in China some years back. He didn't pay much, but he also didn't know ANYTHING about real prices (and silver was down under $15 at the time I think and he didn't even know they were supposed to be made from silver). So, instead of just being naïve and knowing that I collected coins and trying to be nice to me, he must have been stupid and greedy, right?
Oh, better yet, maybe he was "paying tuition" for not being better informed (though, it was a spur of the moment thing and he doesn't collect coins anyway)?
Wish people on the boards weren't always so jaded and thinking that everyone else that doesn't know what they know are stupid....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>did you offer anything for it? >>
We seem to be having trouble getting that piece of information here...
as I told another member via PM, my boss did the deal and I didn't ask about any details. as is typical, everything comes to me and when I have time it gets sorted, inventoried, etc. it was at that point that I went to him and told him it wasn't an ASE, he already knew, and that's as far as it went.
also, as is typical, the usual suspects will pile on and concoct something out of nothing as if I'm up to something sinister. Robert, I've really missed you.
<< <i>We seem to be having trouble getting that piece of information here...
as I told another member via PM, my boss did the deal and I didn't ask about any details. as is typical, everything comes to me and when I have time it gets sorted, inventoried, etc. it was at that point that I went to him and told him it wasn't an ASE, he already knew, and that's as far as it went.
also, as is typical, the usual suspects will pile on and concoct something out of nothing as if I'm up to something sinister. Robert, I've really missed you.
Maybe, maybe not. It seems pretty clear that the point of this thread was to "pile on" the anti-DC sentiment. Remember, it made you "pissed off". I guess that the opposing viewpoint that the guy was not harmed by purchasing the overstrike SAE, one that is shared by a number of collectors here, probably "pisses you off", too.
As a collector, I would be curious to know how the coin shop values these. My guess is melt or back of melt.* Perhaps you can ask the boss and get back to us. Given that none here know the whereabouts of this coin shop, there is nothing to lose.
*Edit: Another option would be to tell the customer that we do not buy these and even offer that they might do well on ebay.
This is an interesting social situation. That was a lead in to learn about it.
And the plot thickened.
Now that it is in house, are you going to refuse to handle it? (no derision intended)
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<< <i>We seem to be having trouble getting that piece of information here...
as I told another member via PM, my boss did the deal and I didn't ask about any details. as is typical, everything comes to me and when I have time it gets sorted, inventoried, etc. it was at that point that I went to him and told him it wasn't an ASE, he already knew, and that's as far as it went.
also, as is typical, the usual suspects will pile on and concoct something out of nothing as if I'm up to something sinister. Robert, I've really missed you.
Maybe, maybe not. It seems pretty clear that the point of this thread was to "pile on" the anti-DC sentiment. Remember, it made you "pissed off". I guess that the opposing viewpoint that the guy was not harmed by purchasing the overstrike SAE, one that is shared by a number of collectors here, probably "pisses you off", too.
As a collector, I would be curious to know how the coin shop values these. My guess is melt or back of melt. Perhaps you can ask the boss and get back to us. Given that none here know the whereabouts of this coin shop, there is nothing to lose. >>
ah....
Yes, this is an interesting situation.
We're trying to learn more out of curiosity.
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<< <i>
<< <i>We seem to be having trouble getting that piece of information here...
as I told another member via PM, my boss did the deal and I didn't ask about any details. as is typical, everything comes to me and when I have time it gets sorted, inventoried, etc. it was at that point that I went to him and told him it wasn't an ASE, he already knew, and that's as far as it went.
also, as is typical, the usual suspects will pile on and concoct something out of nothing as if I'm up to something sinister. Robert, I've really missed you.
Maybe, maybe not. It seems pretty clear that the point of this thread was to "pile on" the anti-DC sentiment. Remember, it made you "pissed off". I guess that the opposing viewpoint that the guy was not harmed by purchasing the overstrike SAE, one that is shared by a number of collectors here, probably "pisses you off", too.
As a collector, I would be curious to know how the coin shop values these. My guess is melt or back of melt. Perhaps you can ask the boss and get back to us. Given that none here know the whereabouts of this coin shop, there is nothing to lose. >>
ah....
Yes, this is an interesting situation.
We're trying to learn more out of curiosity. >>
More than curiosity...I own some overstrikes, so I have a legitimate interest.
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<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle. >>
We have a lovely penny arcade out in Manitou Springs, just west of here. If I take a 1955-S cent and roll it in one of the penny roller machines, is it still a 1955-S cent? >>
Nobody want to touch this one?
With some seemingly yes-no questions, the answer is always, "it depends!"
it depends on for what purpose the definition is being made, and it depends on who cares about the answer.
or, philosophically speaking, yes and no are equally accurate, and occupy the same region of space-time simultaneously, but on different axis continuums
(or is the plural of continuum, continua?)
Anyway, I wish I could buy these pieces at melt by telling the seller it's worthless, and then sell for big profits to the hungry ebay bidders.
Or better yet, I wish I could "re-mint" old money and profit by selling it to collectors of novelties due to a technical loophole in the counterfeiting laws.
My conscience will let me do neither, alas.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle. >>
We have a lovely penny arcade out in Manitou Springs, just west of here. If I take a 1955-S cent and roll it in one of the penny roller machines, is it still a 1955-S cent? >>
Nobody want to touch this one? >>
How about a closer comparison?
The buffalo nickels that have a mint mark pushed up from a hole in the bottom?
They can still be used as a nickel and still can be melted for about the same amount of metal.
Knowing the procedure and assuming it is a real DC, could it not at least trade hands like a bullion ASE would?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
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<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle. >>
We have a lovely penny arcade out in Manitou Springs, just west of here. If I take a 1955-S cent and roll it in one of the penny roller machines, is it still a 1955-S cent? >>
Nobody want to touch this one? >>
Sure, yes, it still is a 1955-S cent.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
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<< <i>Serious question here: What did the person THINK that they had?
a Silver Eagle, but we knew that wasn't what it is. >>
I thought that coin is in fact a Silver Eagle - and an overstruck one that is worth more than the average non-Dan Carr Silver Eagle.
I hope you didn't tell the collector something untrue, like that it wasn't a Silver Eagle. >>
We have a lovely penny arcade out in Manitou Springs, just west of here. If I take a 1955-S cent and roll it in one of the penny roller machines, is it still a 1955-S cent? >>
Nobody want to touch this one? >>
Sure, yes, it still is a 1955-S cent. >>
Or someone could argue no. However it is an elongated 55S that is also another form of a collectible.
How about if it's completely restored in a ground up rebuild with all new parts? Still a 1965 Mustang?
What about if it's customized beyond all recognition? Still a 1965 Mustang?
The answer to all of those has to be "no" for all practical purposes, if the comparator is a genuine, all original 1965 Mustang.
Unless an acceptable answer is, "well, kind of..."
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Can it still trade at melt? What if it were a 92S?
Another curious question- what is the owner going to do with it? Melt? Sell it as a DC? Other?
<< <i>Same question for a 1965 Mustang, after it's been crushed into a tight cube: Still a 1965 Mustang?
How about if it's completely restored in a ground up rebuild with all new parts? Still a 1965 Mustang?
What about if it's customized beyond all recognition? Still a 1965 Mustang?
The answer to all of those has to be "no" for all practical purposes, if the comparator is a genuine, all original 1965 Mustang.
Unless an acceptable answer is, "well, kind of..." >>
The Mustang has a function that it cannot complete if it is in the form of a tight cube. It is no longer a Mustang, for practical purposes.
If it is rebuilt from the ground up, it is a rebuilt Mustang.
If it is customized, it is a customized Mustang.
Geez, throw me a tough one!