Confused about a dealer conversation with me

MusicAL

Hello everybody.

At the Marlboro coin show yesterday, I got into a great conversation with a coin dealer about certification and an incident I had with a coin I had certified by a somewhat lesser "start up" company and several years later recertified by one of the top 2 certifying companies. The coin came back from the first service marked VF 25 cleaned. Fine...I knew it was cleaned...no problem but I was pleased with the grade...it was a "high ticket" item for me...1795 dollar). I decided to recertify all my "lesser" slabs several years later and the 1795 dollar came back as a copy. (Yes I know that many of you may know this story and I DO apologize for being repetitive and boring!!!) Anyway, after a bit of discussion with the original company, they bought the coin back...well after expiration of the guarantee and I respect them for that and appreciate it...for the price I paid several years earlier. It had increased in value of course (had it been genuine.) Anyway, I had to return the coin to the first slab company when they refunded my cost for the coin and I was told it would be government property, being counterfeit. OK...I thought...until yesterday.

I was sharing this story with a dealer who had a few slabs from my original company and he said that my coin may well NOT be in government possession. "Where might it be", I asked. The reply I received took me back a bit. He explained that on some occasions, when sending in a slab form one company to another for certification, the second company may knock it out of the ball field (so to speak) to make the first company look less competent. I'm not buying that...but has anyone else heard...or worse...experienced this? I am now wondering where my dollar REALLY is, since I probably won't ever be able to replace it at that grade...if at all. It was a treasured part of my type set and one of my best pieces. This goes back maybe 5 years or so and I STILL feel the pain.

Your thoughts and opinions are valued. Alan

MGLICKER

<< <i>Your thoughts and opinions are valued. Alan >>



Learn to grade and authenticate before plopping down important bucks on a coin.

MsMorrisine

there are tons of conspiracy theories

included are the graders recognize their own submissions, etc.

ricko

Have not heard that particular scenario. However, all the more reason to become skilled within your field of interest. As to your situation, far too much time has passed to be still focusing on this issue, best to forget it and move on. Cheers, RickO

TomB

It seems like you started to ask one question, but finished with another. Is this true? If the post were a little more clear I may be able to contribute something more than this.

DaveG

I'm afraid I don't know the story of this coin.

Can you make the time sequence more clear (and it would help if you named the slab companies).

If you don't want to name names, at least put "lesser slabber" and "top 2 slabber" in the right spots in your narrative.

CoinRaritiesOnline

So If I am understanding correctly, you are concerned, based on input from a dealer, that one of the major TPG's said your coin was fake in order to try to discredit the smaller TPG?

If that's what you meant, then I would say that is silly and not something to be concerned about.

dbcoin

The lesser TPG's have less than 5% of the market. PCGS and NGC could care less about discrediting them. They are more concerned with each other and their international expansion plans. This is a silly rumor.
Do you really think PCGS as a publicly traded company would risk an SEC/FTC investigation?

MusicAL

Hello, DaveG.

I tried to edit and tighten up my explanation a bit. Sorry for the confusion. Alan

MusicAL

Hello, Ricko.

You are 100% correct. While not forgotten, the discussion at yesterday's coin show got me to wondering. It has been a long time but still...

Alan

DaveG

MusicAL,

Let me recap:

1. You bought a 1795 dollar raw.

2. You sent the 1795 dollar to "lesser slabber" and it came back VF 25 cleaned.

3. You sent the 1795 dollar to "Top 2 slabber" and it came back "questionable authenticity" Was the coin still in the lesser slabber's slab?

4. You then sent the coin back to "lesser slabber" and they paid off on their guarantee.

5. Some dealer told you a silly story.

I'm presuming that "lesser slabber" wasn't ANACS.

So, what is your question?

Is it, did the lesser slabber actually send the coin to the government? If so, I don't know who they would send it to.

Is it, did the Top 2 slabber "lie" about the coin being counterfeit? If so, totally unlikely.

MusicAL

Hello, TomB.

You know what? You're right. 2 questions posed. Sorry about that!

Question 1...where is the 1795 dollar now? (No way of finding out I guess).

Question 2... do certifying companies deliberately "discredit" the slabs of the first company when submitted to a second? I can't imagine that either...but the dealer to whom I spoke, very nice guy...got my mind thinking about it.

Alan

MusicAL

Hi, DaveG.

I value your thoughts on this very much and thanks.

I tried to send "private mail" to you regarding the certifying companies involved, but that window won't open when I click on the "lock" icon. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Anyway, ANACS is NOT involved in this story.

Alan

Bochiman

I've had dealers try to discredit the top 2 TPGSs, and try to prop up the bottom feeders (in order to justify their use and grades), more than I think either of the top 2 TPGSs have tried to discredit the lower guys.

MusicAL

Hello, everyone.

Had a bit of time this evening and I thought what the heck, I'd review my old posts and now I know I should have been clearer in my initial post on this topic. The coin was 1795 Dollar, SEGS VF 25 cleaned...sent years later to PCGS where it was determined to be counterfeit. I contacted the head of SEGS...several years after I sent it to them for circulation and told him my tale of woe. He worked with me and returned my cost for the coin (bought off E-Bay as raw...(another lesson since learned). I returned the coin to him as he requested (only fair) and somewhere I was told that it became government property. Ya' know....I have never really recovered from that lesson...and I lost my enthusiasm for the hobby for quite some time...but mostly recovered. Funny...now a good number of years later I find that I am considering putting my 50+ year collection up for consignment. Just can't make myself do it but Hell, I'm 66, son is not a collector and if I kick off...no one will know it's value. Time to sell? Ouch...that hurts!!

Alan

MusicAL

oooops....line 3...should be "certification"...not circulation

coindeuce

If by the head of SEGS you are referring to Larry Briggs, you can rest assured that Larry didn't feed you a story about what would become of the coin. If you were genuinely concerned about what his words meant at the time, you should have asked him to clarify specifically what the disposition would be, but his credibility is well known to be rock solid in this community. SEGS graded coins were not necessarily all finalized by Larry for a number of reasons that it wouldn't serve any useful purpose to discuss here, but he is so extremely conscious of his personal reputation to the extent that it does not surprise me at all that he took responsibility for indemnity to you.

BAJJERFAN

Apparently SEGS was wrong the first time and later when PCGS said it wasn't genuine SEGS agreed and made you whole. What happened to the coin after they bought it from you is frankly none of your concern. It was now their coin to do with what they pleased. What does trying to discredit a TPG have to do with sending the coin to the Government if that is what SEGS told you that that is what they would do with it? Did the dealer suggest that SEGS reholdered the coin and put it back into the market?

BryceM

If it wasn't authentic you were darn lucky to escape without getting burned for the entire value. You're the one who assumed the initial risk by buying raw to start with. You were made whole (minus market appreciation) so that's that. End of story.

Sometimes coins are clearly counterfeit and sometimes it's just a gut feeling on the part of the grader/authenticator. When in doubt, they'll body bag it to be safe. I'm guessing your coin fell into this category. It might actually be genuine, just with something that looked "off".

Wabbit2313

Larry bought back a coin of mine several years ago. Nice guy!