I have questions about 1954 proof set OGP polybags and the toning it imparts. Do you have answers?

SanctionII

By way of background I have a 1954 proof half dollar that is likely a high grade [66 or 67] Cameo or even DCAM. Unfortunately the coin has on about 40% of the surface of the reverse some very light tan color. I understand this results when the purple toning imparted to the coin from OGP soft poly bags on the proof coins is removed.

#1. Have any of you ever successfully removed the light tan color without damaging the coin?

#2. Have you ever heard of a professional conversation service (NCS of PCGS Restoration) successfully removing the light tan color without damaging the coin?

#3. Does either PCGS or NGC ever slab these 1954 proof silver coins that have the light tan color on them, or are they returned unslabbed for the reason that they are environmentally damaged?

#4. If these coins have been graded by PCGS or NGC, does the presence of the light tan color on them preclude them from receiving a CAM or DCAM designation?

Any answers you can give me to these questions is appreciated.

ModCrewman

Do you want photos?

ModCrewman

Oh heck...you're too slow...here are the pictures of the coin Kevin is referencing.




Edit to add...I may or may not be in possession of photos of SanctionII's Franklin set.

mrpotatoheadd

Just a WAG from the image, but if that's what's left after removing toning, it might already be damaged.

coindeuce

The coins in boxed Proof coin sets of 1950-1955 were originally packaged in separate cellophane bags. If you obtained a set with all coins in the opaque polyethylene bags, they are either not the original coins of the set, or they were transferred from the delicate original cellophane bags. Depending on the source of the polyethylene bags, they may or may not have been manufactured with materials that caused the discoloration, which is usually embedded in etching of the mirrored surface, and not likely to be remedied.

Cameonut

<< <i>The coins in boxed Proof coin sets of 1950-1955 were originally packaged in separate cellophane bags. If you obtained a set with all coins in the opaque polyethylene bags, they are either not the original coins of the set, or they were transferred from the delicate original cellophane bags. Depending on the source of the polyethylene bags, they may or may not have been manufactured with materials that caused the discoloration, which is usually embedded in etching of the mirrored surface, and not likely to be remedied. >>



This is my experience as well. Cellophane was original - poly was a later replacement. The staple is also a useful source of info. Rusted = original. Clean = replacement.

ModCrewman

I'm surprised to hear you say that Cameonut...I'm almost certain I read somewhere (Webb, Tomaska, or Redbook on Proofs) that they switched from the original cellophane to the polyethylene bags at some point during 1954.

I've seen enough of them in the polyethylene bags that look like they've been there >50 years, with the resulting purplish tone/haze that I'd have to believe they were there since 1954.

Tiny

<< <i>

<< <i>The coins in boxed Proof coin sets of 1950-1955 were originally packaged in separate cellophane bags. If you obtained a set with all coins in the opaque polyethylene bags, they are either not the original coins of the set, or they were transferred from the delicate original cellophane bags. Depending on the source of the polyethylene bags, they may or may not have been manufactured with materials that caused the discoloration, which is usually embedded in etching of the mirrored surface, and not likely to be remedied. >>



This is my experience as well. Cellophane was original - poly was a later replacement. The staple is also a useful source of info. Rusted = original. Clean = replacement.


>>

MICHAELDIXON

Growing up, I never saw a box set in polybags (1960's, 1970's). I bought many, broke them up and sold them to kids in school and around town for a proof coin from their birthyear. They were originally issued in the cellophane bags, which became brittle. In the 1980s I saw individuals placing the coins in the polybags and trying to sell them as original and I never bought into them being original.

ModCrewman

Were 1955 sets issued in the Polyethylene bags?

MICHAELDIXON

Some individuals say the 1955 sets were issued in the polybags. My experience is that I never saw one, or bought one in polybags prior to the 1980s. So, my opinion is they were not issued in polybags.

keets

I have always understood that at some point during 1954 the Mint began using Polybags, not exclusively but at least on some of the sets, and that they also used the cello pouches until they were gone at some point during 1955. during the mid-1950's there were several changes in packaging besides the most notable switch to the flat-pack until 1958 when the Mint seemed to settle on what we have until 1966, then they started switching things around again. we were just talking about this at work on Tuesday. box changes, holder changes, color changes, closure changes, etc, etc, the Mint never seems content with a packaging format.

Steve27

<< <i>Oh heck...you're too slow...here are the pictures of the coin Kevin is referencing.




Edit to add...I may or may not be in possession of photos of SanctionII's Franklin set. >>




Where's Russ when you need him? He's probably dipped a 100 of these, and he should be able to describe the results very accurately. Send him an email one@tacube.com or a PM (or both).

ModCrewman

Thanks Keets...finally someone agreeing with me. SanctionII do you have an opinion?

pmac

<< <i>The coins in boxed Proof coin sets of 1950-1955 were originally packaged in separate cellophane bags. If you obtained a set with all coins in the opaque polyethylene bags, they are either not the original coins of the set, or they were transferred from the delicate original cellophane bags. Depending on the source of the polyethylene bags, they may or may not have been manufactured with materials that caused the discoloration, which is usually embedded in etching of the mirrored surface, and not likely to be remedied. >>


Apologies for being picky, but "opaque" means that light doesn't pass through. I'm sure you mean transparent.

SanctionII

How interesting it is that the responses to my initial post is a discussion of proof set packaging for 1954 and 1955 proof sets
So far not a single reply that answers even one of my questions

In response to Modcrewman's question, I can only say what my experience has been. While searching proof sets I have seen 1954 boxed sets with the cellophane sleeves that were used in 1950-53 and have seen soft polybags. F or 1955 sets I have seen boxed sets with soft polybags only and have seen flat packs.

I also have never been able to remove the tan toning on 1954 silver proof coins

mainer020648

This is according to The Official Red Book Guide for Modern United States Proof Coin Sets:

"The 1955 sets were delivered with two highly distinctive types of packaging. Early orders were packaged in the traditional envelopes, as described for the 1954 sets. Most seen included polyethylene envelopes, though there are reports of the older style cellophane being used.

Midway through 1955, the U.S. Mint adopted a more sophisticated method of packaging and delivering Proof sets. The five coins were sealed into a single, soft plastic envelope with pockets for each coin, arranged in two rows."

Hope this helps

ModCrewman

Sorry Kevin...your post is OT...or is it the rest of the thread that's OT?

Here's our previous discussion of a 1954 Flat Pack proof set that I found a few years ago. In that discussion I reference that David Lange's Guidebook of US Proof Sets mentioned a change in the bags during 1954...which is apparently where I recall reading about that...but it's in a Red Book; so it must be right.

Edit to add: I don't believe the tan on your set can be removed by traditional dipping methods. As I've told you before; I think it'd be a good candidate to see if PCGS can conserve it.

Cameonut

Here is some feedback from my experience. More direct to your original questions

#1. Have any of you ever successfully removed the light tan color without damaging the coin? Not personally - I did try it once as a trial - it did not come out well.

#2. Have you ever heard of a professional conversation service (NCS of PCGS Restoration) successfully removing the light tan color without damaging the coin? I sent a number of 1963 Franklins with milk spots/tan toning to NCS as an experiment a long time ago (and I sure wish I had the equipment to take good photos back then). They were able to minimize most everything, but you could still see where the spots/toning were. Sure, the coins were more eye appealing, but the scars remained and affected the NGC grade. (Back then you submitted to NCS with an option to have NGC grade them after conservation.)

#3. Does either PCGS or NGC ever slab these 1954 proof silver coins that have the light tan color on them, or are they returned unslabbed for the reason that they are environmentally damaged? Good question, I don't think I have ever seen a 1954 proof silver coin in a PCGS holder than had the tan color on them. It could be that nobody ever submitted one, thinking the coin would be downgraded or bagged. It also could be that they do bag them for environmental damage. I know if it were my coin, and I intended to keep it, I'd probably give it a shot on economy to see what happens - the photos suggest cam or maybe dcam. If I didn't plan to keep it, I'd probably sell it raw - warts and all.

#4. If these coins have been graded by PCGS or NGC, does the presence of the light tan color on them preclude them from receiving a CAM or DCAM designation? I don't think it precludes them from Cam or Dcam - but there will be a hit to the numeric grade - and it could be pretty big. I have seen more of these in NGC holders than PCGS holders - not sure why.

segoja

The poly bags were used on virtually all 1954 Proof Sets (open a sealed one and you'll know). Early 54 sets used the late 1953 cello. The mint had a habit of using old packaging material until it ran out. Look at truly original mint sets and you'll know.

ALL 1955 proof sets had the poly bags.

There is no dispute what so ever.

As for the damage from the poly bags....it's there to stay.

BillJones

<< <i>

<< <i>The coins in boxed Proof coin sets of 1950-1955 were originally packaged in separate cellophane bags. If you obtained a set with all coins in the opaque polyethylene bags, they are either not the original coins of the set, or they were transferred from the delicate original cellophane bags. Depending on the source of the polyethylene bags, they may or may not have been manufactured with materials that caused the discoloration, which is usually embedded in etching of the mirrored surface, and not likely to be remedied. >>



This is my experience as well. Cellophane was original - poly was a later replacement. The staple is also a useful source of info. Rusted = original. Clean = replacement. >>



I don't agree with this. I have never seen 1955 box Proof set that was in cellophane. Every one of them was in the polyethylene. It has been my experience that roughly half of the 1954 sets were in cellophane and half in polyethylene. The information I present here is supported in The Guide Book of Modern United States Proof Coin Sets by David Lange. Reference pages 53 and 55. There it is claimed that some 1955 sets were in cellophane, but I have never seen any.

As for the polyethylene bags, they were the pits IMO. They imparted a dark, ugly toning on the silver coins that is virtually impossible to remove without doing further damage to the coin. This is the reason why I think really nice 1954 Proof sets are a bit underrated. It's also the reason why the 1955 box sets are undesirable.

keets

I will admit to never having seen a 1955 Set with the cello bags, my reply was only in line with what I'd expect from the Mint, to use everything up when they make a change, so I'd expect them to have possibly used them.

ModCrewman

<< <i>I will admit to never having seen a 1955 Set with the cello bags, >>

I'd agree with Keets on this point.

Cameonut

The best thing about these boards is that you learn something new every day. And I learned something from the interchange.

With respect to poly bags on 1955 proofs - I have never seen cello on these sets. (in my previous post, I was focused on 1954 so I was in error for posting too quickly).

Although I have seen a number of 1954 proof sets in poly bags, they were all fugly and they all had clean staples which suggested to me that they were repackaged.

But I now understand that the mint switched packaging materials mid-year in 1954. Strangely enough, the vast majority of the 1954 sets that I have seen were in cello - not poly bags.

So the mint changed from cellophane which was noted for creating hairlines and causing glue spots to poly which turned them purple. No wonder they changed to the flat packs part way through 1955.

Coinflip

BillJones

<< <i>No wonder they changed to the flat packs part way through 1955. >>



I think that the flat packs have better over the years than anything else, especially the early flat packs which were thick and substantial. Some of the hard plastic holders have been prone to toning the coins because the colored inserts were not inert. So long you could resist bending an cracking the flat packs or weighing them down which forced the knife edges of the coins to cut into them, the coins have stayed quite well preserved.

SanctionII

While we are discussing 1950's and 1960's proof set packaging, let me muse on the arcane topic of the different kinds of flat pack cello I have seen during my years hunting through the flat pack sets.

The flat pack cello is not uniform throughout 1955-1964.

I have seen:

1. cello that is paper thin and very fragile (so thin and fragile that the ends have curled up instead of staying flat; so thin and fragile that one could tear the cello as easily as one can tear a single ply piece of toilet paper; so thin and fragile that it fractures and opens on its own; so thing and fragile that rough handling of the yellow envelope and cardboard can cause damage to the cello; so thin and fragile that the coins in the cello can move around and fracture/open the cello; and so thin and fragile that the cello deteriorates and becomes cloudy);

2. cello that is thick and more durable (some cello is so durable that you can not simply tear it open, you must cut it open with a knife or a pair of scissors);

3. cello that has wide and durable seams on the outer edge of the cello package and in the interior portions of the cello to mark the boundary of the spaces that hold the individual coins;

4. cello that has thin and weak seams on the outer edges and interior portions;

5. cello that has no wording embossed on the seams; and

6. cello that has wording embossed on the seams.

I have seen the thinner and less durable cello more in the 50's proof sets and have seen the thicker and more durable cello more in the 60's proof sets, but this is not always so. I have seen thicker/durable cello for the 50's sets and thinner cello for the 60's