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IOOF Cancelled Die Morgan Dollar Overstrike

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 29, 2018 7:20PM in U.S. Coin Forum
Anyone here win this tonight? I thought this was interesting.

How common are these and does anyone know anything about these?

image

Comments

  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,282 ✭✭✭✭
    Independent Order of Odd Fellows.....very cool!

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it's an Odd Fellows piece. The cancelled Morgan die is nonsensical, so it's probably some sort of fantasy restrike. Better find someone who actually knows something to get the rest of the story.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,923 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why is the cancel die nonsensical? Looks like the cancel die strikes I have seen from the era.

    I think that is a real cool piece.
    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why is the cancel die nonsensical?

    The Odd Fellows were not likely to have US coin dies on hand. On the other hand, a numismatist (with no connection to the Odd Fellows) might have old dies of all sorts to play with.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MedalCollectorMedalCollector Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow it ended up selling for that much?!

    Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?! >>



    I'm actually not too surprised by the price. People like Morgan dollars and coin prices have been strong.



    << <i>Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>



    Yeah, I think the double stuck imprint is really nice on this piece.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?!

    Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>



    Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?!

    Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>



    Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar image >>



    That was actually my first thought but I'm not 100% on my gut instinct yet - perhaps I should believe my gut more!
  • MedalCollectorMedalCollector Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar  >>




    Ah! Very good call. And that makes this piece much more interesting!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,141 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anyone here win this tonight? I thought this was interesting.

    How common are these and does anyone know anything about these?

    image >>



    The reverse is double struck. Note how the middle serif of the F repeats on the upright of the F, and how the right end of the ribbon repeats on itself.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think this is a really cool piece on multiple levels. I'll just have to live with being the underbidder.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting....must be a good story behind that piece.... are there others? I would assume (there's that word again) that more than one was struck. Cheers, RickO
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good notes Dan and Tom!

    I've been looking at the eye for a while on the reverse and just figured out that those are the outlines from the Peace dollar eagle. Very cool.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image

    A few things....

    A.) It's not struck over a Peace $1

    B.) It's was double struck both obverse;/reverse with rotation.

    C.) It's not from the turn of the century, but circa 1960-70's.

    C.) It's not silver but silvered copper as you can see trace of the copper core on both sides.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,141 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image

    A few things....

    A.) It's not struck over a Peace $1

    B.) It's was double struck both obverse;/reverse with rotation.

    C.) It's not from the turn of the century, but circa 1960-70's.

    C.) It's not silver but silvered copper as you can see trace of the copper core on both sides. >>



    Thanks!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image >>



    What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.

    A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.

    Interesting times for collecting.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image >>



    What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.

    A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.

    Interesting times for collecting. >>



    It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"

    As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.

    I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image >>



    What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.

    A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.

    Interesting times for collecting. >>



    It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"

    As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.

    I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver. >>



    I would have said this is a fluke 2 years ago, but I've been the direct underbidder in a number of situations with aggressive (stratosphere) bids. Somehow I tend to lose a lot on a variety of items. It's very curious.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00 image >>



    What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.

    A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.

    Interesting times for collecting. >>



    It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"

    As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.

    I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver. >>



    I would have said this is a fluke 2 years ago, but I've been the direct underbidder in a number of situations with aggressive (stratosphere) bids. Somehow I tend to lose a lot on a variety of items. It's very curious. >>



    Nothing to do with the economy, as exonumia as a whole is up.

    I've also been the underbiddier on a lot of stuff lately that a couple years ago I would have won.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • numobrinumobri Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭

    I own one of these "I.O.O.F. Cancelled Die Morgan Dollars". It's not struck over a Peace Dollar,just rotated as is mine. It is silver (26.7 grams in a flip). Bought mine in 2010 for $230. It is COOL.


    Brian
    NUMO
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check out the bottom one below which was just sold.

    Things are getting more interesting image

    image
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've had a cancelled Morgan dollar die before,
    and I just don't think this piece was struck from
    an authentic, U.S. Mint, cancelled Morgan Dollar die.

    (but I'd be willing to change my mind should the
    actual die show up and be examined.)
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,141 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Check out the bottom one below which was just sold.

    Things are getting more interesting image

    image >>



    The most disturbing thing about the new piece is the original design of the Morgan dollar that survives in the "cancellation marks." This did not show up on the original piece. I would think that anything that cut that deeply into a die would eliminate that design detail.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The most disturbing thing about the new piece is the original design of the Morgan dollar that survives in the "cancellation marks." This did not show up on the original piece. I would think that anything that cut that deeply into a die would eliminate that design detail.

    TD >>



    image

    Seeing the nose, chin, ear, hair, and cap details continue through the deep cancellation cuts is odd.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think both are struck over silver dollars.

    Seeing details on the raised up cancellation marks of the cancelled die are not strange at all if the piece was struck over an existing coin. Those areas would be blank on the die, but would not completely obliterate the original design. On the second coin pictured (which is clearly struck over a Morgan Dollar) that's why you see part of Liberty's face and other coin details in those cancelled areas... that's from the original coin that was overstruck.

    Similarly, the first coin pictured appears to have been struck over a Peace Dollar. In those same cancellation marks on the obverse, you can just make out the profile of Liberty from the Peace Dollar. The faint profile is NOT Morgan's Liberty. And on the reverse raised up portion of the eye, you can see the outline of the eagle on the reverse of the Peace Dollar. I'm sure someone that can make overlay images can quickly confirm that.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top coin is struck over a Peace dollar. The eagle's profile is visible on the great eye, and Liberty's profile is also visible. The top of the hair bun is visible on the cancellation by the S n PLURIBUS.
    Bottom coin is obviously struck over a Morgan dollar with fairly good registration, which is why you see detail on the cancellation marks. Date and mint can probably be determined with coin in hand.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's along the lines of what I was thinking Mike and John, but I'm still not sure what the copperish appearance of the top coin is from.
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw the double profile, but did not associate the Peace dollar.

    Unusual nevertheless.
    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • numobrinumobri Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭


    OK, I dug my coin out. I still do not think it was struck over a peace dollar. My coin is rotated about 45 degrees to the left then that of coin #1 in the OP. On my coin the lines on the eyeball to the right and left of the iris continue into the field to outline another eye.

    The catologue description from, Numismatic Auctions,LLC , Auction Sale 48, Lot#1675, December 11,2010

    (1990's)

    BY-Wm. Swoger

    Canceled Carson City 1879

    OBV Die#1 Paired with

    Baltimore,I.O.O.F.

    Radiant EYE Rev Die,ND(1990)

    Siliver 38mm Plain Edge

    image


    Brian
    NUMO
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>OK, I dug my coin out. I still do not think it was struck over a peace dollar. My coin is rotated about 45 degrees to the left then that of coin #1 in the OP. On my coin the lines on the eyeball to the right and left of the iris continue into the field to outline another eye.

    The catologue description from, Numismatic Auctions,LLC , Auction Sale 48, Lot#1675, December 11,2010

    (1990's)

    BY-Wm. Swoger

    Canceled Carson City 1879

    OBV Die#1 Paired with

    Baltimore,I.O.O.F.

    Radiant EYE Rev Die,ND(1990)

    Siliver 38mm Plain Edge

    image


    Brian >>



    Wow. If this is by William Swoger of "National Commemorative Medals of the United States of America Since 1873" fame, this is very cool.

    Does anyone know William Swoger? Can someone check if he has a cancelled Morgan dollar die? imageimage

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Does anyone know if Bill Swoger is a member of the IOOF?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a photo of what may have been the original use of the radiant eye reverse (bottom one of the three):

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A related piece just sold using the IOOF die only. Anyone know if William Swoger made this one as well?

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2017 11:47PM
  • EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Just noticed an IOOF Morgan was recently sold for $55.00 and is now being offered for $149.95 with the image above as support in the auction!

    Actually, two of these sold back-to-back a few days apart, both from the same seller -- one for $53 and the other for $55. I was an underbidder on the first one, and then just let the other one go without a bid. I guess prices for these have dropped significantly....

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
  • MedalCollectorMedalCollector Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those two did not have the canceled morgan dollar obverse. That's what drives most of the appeal, IMO.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting... the first one is clearly over a Peace dollar...and just as clearly, the second one is over a Morgan....Do we not have any IOOF members that are coin collectors here?? They may have input as to history of these.... Cheers, RickO

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1881 piece is struck on a genuine dollar. The cancelled Morgan obverse is a VERY CRUDE P.O.S. fake! Both the Peace dollar and Morgan dollar used as planchets are genuine.

    It's too bad that Mr. Carr did not prepare the cancelled Morgan obverse as his piece would have been stunning and well executed. The price would have possibly doubled at auction!

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,132 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My understanding is that the cancelled Morgan dies are quite real and were used at the Carson City Mint museum to strike a limited number of restrikes on silver and copper planchets using original mint equipment and were given to those who made a major donation during the restoration of the mint. Once they heard about this the Secret Service made them stop doing this. The die was rusted and had to be cleaned up which explains their crude appearance. A long time forum member here had a thread explaining these restrikes and their history. I forget the name of this forum member but he used to set up at major shows to offer photographic services. Perhaps he can chime in here and add some more details.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

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