IOOF Cancelled Die Morgan Dollar Overstrike
Zoins
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Anyone here win this tonight? I thought this was interesting.
How common are these and does anyone know anything about these?
How common are these and does anyone know anything about these?
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www.brunkauctions.com
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think that is a real cool piece.
The Odd Fellows were not likely to have US coin dies on hand. On the other hand, a numismatist (with no connection to the Odd Fellows) might have old dies of all sorts to play with.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar?
<< <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?! >>
I'm actually not too surprised by the price. People like Morgan dollars and coin prices have been strong.
<< <i>Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>
Yeah, I think the double stuck imprint is really nice on this piece.
<< <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?!
Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>
Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow it ended up selling for that much?!
Anyone else notice it was double struck rotated in collar? >>
Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar
That was actually my first thought but I'm not 100% on my gut instinct yet - perhaps I should believe my gut more!
<< <i>Actually, what I notice is that it was NOT double struck, but rather, it was single-struck over a Peace Dollar >>
Ah! Very good call. And that makes this piece much more interesting!
<< <i>Anyone here win this tonight? I thought this was interesting.
How common are these and does anyone know anything about these?
The reverse is double struck. Note how the middle serif of the F repeats on the upright of the F, and how the right end of the ribbon repeats on itself.
I've been looking at the eye for a while on the reverse and just figured out that those are the outlines from the Peace dollar eagle. Very cool.
A few things....
A.) It's not struck over a Peace $1
B.) It's was double struck both obverse;/reverse with rotation.
C.) It's not from the turn of the century, but circa 1960-70's.
C.) It's not silver but silvered copper as you can see trace of the copper core on both sides.
<< <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00
A few things....
A.) It's not struck over a Peace $1
B.) It's was double struck both obverse;/reverse with rotation.
C.) It's not from the turn of the century, but circa 1960-70's.
C.) It's not silver but silvered copper as you can see trace of the copper core on both sides. >>
Thanks!
<< <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00
What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.
A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.
Interesting times for collecting.
<< <i>
<< <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00
What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.
A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.
Interesting times for collecting. >>
It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"
As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.
I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00
What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.
A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.
Interesting times for collecting. >>
It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"
As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.
I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver. >>
I would have said this is a fluke 2 years ago, but I've been the direct underbidder in a number of situations with aggressive (stratosphere) bids. Somehow I tend to lose a lot on a variety of items. It's very curious.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>As one of the under bidders with a max bid of $63.00 I fell out of my seat when I saw the final price of $587.00
What I've learned recently is that the economy is very, very good.
A while back I was able to purchase a piece for $300 which was subsequently sold for over $5,000 due to 2 bidders. Bidder #3 was like under $300. That item also has it's own thread here.
Interesting times for collecting. >>
It's a fluke as the seller was smart to also list it under "Coins & Paper Money, Exonumia, Medals"
As under just "Historical Memorabilia, Fraternal Organizations, Odd Fellows" I doubt it would have broken the $100 level.
I also feel the winning bidder might be disappointed when this shows up not being solid silver. >>
I would have said this is a fluke 2 years ago, but I've been the direct underbidder in a number of situations with aggressive (stratosphere) bids. Somehow I tend to lose a lot on a variety of items. It's very curious. >>
Nothing to do with the economy, as exonumia as a whole is up.
I've also been the underbiddier on a lot of stuff lately that a couple years ago I would have won.
I own one of these "I.O.O.F. Cancelled Die Morgan Dollars". It's not struck over a Peace Dollar,just rotated as is mine. It is silver (26.7 grams in a flip). Bought mine in 2010 for $230. It is COOL.
Brian
Things are getting more interesting
and I just don't think this piece was struck from
an authentic, U.S. Mint, cancelled Morgan Dollar die.
(but I'd be willing to change my mind should the
actual die show up and be examined.)
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>Check out the bottom one below which was just sold.
Things are getting more interesting
The most disturbing thing about the new piece is the original design of the Morgan dollar that survives in the "cancellation marks." This did not show up on the original piece. I would think that anything that cut that deeply into a die would eliminate that design detail.
TD
<< <i>The most disturbing thing about the new piece is the original design of the Morgan dollar that survives in the "cancellation marks." This did not show up on the original piece. I would think that anything that cut that deeply into a die would eliminate that design detail.
TD >>
Seeing the nose, chin, ear, hair, and cap details continue through the deep cancellation cuts is odd.
Seeing details on the raised up cancellation marks of the cancelled die are not strange at all if the piece was struck over an existing coin. Those areas would be blank on the die, but would not completely obliterate the original design. On the second coin pictured (which is clearly struck over a Morgan Dollar) that's why you see part of Liberty's face and other coin details in those cancelled areas... that's from the original coin that was overstruck.
Similarly, the first coin pictured appears to have been struck over a Peace Dollar. In those same cancellation marks on the obverse, you can just make out the profile of Liberty from the Peace Dollar. The faint profile is NOT Morgan's Liberty. And on the reverse raised up portion of the eye, you can see the outline of the eagle on the reverse of the Peace Dollar. I'm sure someone that can make overlay images can quickly confirm that.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Bottom coin is obviously struck over a Morgan dollar with fairly good registration, which is why you see detail on the cancellation marks. Date and mint can probably be determined with coin in hand.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Unusual nevertheless.
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OK, I dug my coin out. I still do not think it was struck over a peace dollar. My coin is rotated about 45 degrees to the left then that of coin #1 in the OP. On my coin the lines on the eyeball to the right and left of the iris continue into the field to outline another eye.
The catologue description from, Numismatic Auctions,LLC , Auction Sale 48, Lot#1675, December 11,2010
(1990's)
BY-Wm. Swoger
Canceled Carson City 1879
OBV Die#1 Paired with
Baltimore,I.O.O.F.
Radiant EYE Rev Die,ND(1990)
Siliver 38mm Plain Edge
Brian
<< <i>OK, I dug my coin out. I still do not think it was struck over a peace dollar. My coin is rotated about 45 degrees to the left then that of coin #1 in the OP. On my coin the lines on the eyeball to the right and left of the iris continue into the field to outline another eye.
The catologue description from, Numismatic Auctions,LLC , Auction Sale 48, Lot#1675, December 11,2010
(1990's)
BY-Wm. Swoger
Canceled Carson City 1879
OBV Die#1 Paired with
Baltimore,I.O.O.F.
Radiant EYE Rev Die,ND(1990)
Siliver 38mm Plain Edge
Brian >>
Wow. If this is by William Swoger of "National Commemorative Medals of the United States of America Since 1873" fame, this is very cool.
Does anyone know William Swoger? Can someone check if he has a cancelled Morgan dollar die?
Just noticed an IOOF Morgan was recently sold for $55.00 and is now being offered for $149.95 with the image above as support in the auction!
Actually, two of these sold back-to-back a few days apart, both from the same seller -- one for $53 and the other for $55. I was an underbidder on the first one, and then just let the other one go without a bid. I guess prices for these have dropped significantly....
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Those two did not have the canceled morgan dollar obverse. That's what drives most of the appeal, IMO.
Interesting... the first one is clearly over a Peace dollar...and just as clearly, the second one is over a Morgan....Do we not have any IOOF members that are coin collectors here?? They may have input as to history of these.... Cheers, RickO
The 1881 piece is struck on a genuine dollar. The cancelled Morgan obverse is a VERY CRUDE P.O.S. fake! Both the Peace dollar and Morgan dollar used as planchets are genuine.
It's too bad that Mr. Carr did not prepare the cancelled Morgan obverse as his piece would have been stunning and well executed. The price would have possibly doubled at auction!
My understanding is that the cancelled Morgan dies are quite real and were used at the Carson City Mint museum to strike a limited number of restrikes on silver and copper planchets using original mint equipment and were given to those who made a major donation during the restoration of the mint. Once they heard about this the Secret Service made them stop doing this. The die was rusted and had to be cleaned up which explains their crude appearance. A long time forum member here had a thread explaining these restrikes and their history. I forget the name of this forum member but he used to set up at major shows to offer photographic services. Perhaps he can chime in here and add some more details.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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